CAN THORNMAIL HAVE GREVIOUS WOUNDS ALREADY

Rozair··16 votes·1,024 views

Ashe has 10% lifesteal and 100 AD (not including armor pen) Rammus has 100 armor Rammus has item 3075 Ashe deals 50 damage (50% damage reduction due to armor) Rammus deals 35 damage to Ashe from item 3075 Ashe then heals 5 back

now lets go to late game

Ashe has 20% lifesteal and 300 AD and lets assume 100% crit with infinity edge (not including armor pen) Rammus has 400 armor Rammus has item 3075 Ashe deals 150 damage (80% damage reduction + 250% from crit) Rammus deals 190 damage to Ashe from item 3075 Ashe then heals 30 back

Notice crit deals a lot more damage than it looks like it should

Ok now for the broken part Lets add resistances

Ashe has 10% lifesteal and 100 AD ( including armor pen 7% from masterys and 13 magic resist from runes) Rammus has 100 armor Rammus has item 3075 Ashe deals 57 damage (50% damage reduction due to armor) Rammus deals 31 damage to Ashe from item 3075 (11% magic damage reduction) Ashe then heals 6 back

late game

Ashe has 20% lifesteal and 300 AD and lets assume 100% crit with infinity edge (including armor pen 7% from masterys 35% from last whisper 27 magic resist from runes)) Rammus has 400 armor Rammus has item 3075 Ashe deals 240 damage (32% damage reduction + 250% from crit) Rammus deals 150 damage to Ashe from item 3075 (21% magic reduction) Ashe then heals 48 back

if each champion had 2000 health Rammus would die after 9 auto attacks Ashe would kill herself after 17

24 Comments

BLACK REALM GOD3 votes

just a heads up to everyone including the OP your math is incorrect because ashe cant have 300 damage and 100% critical at the same time as 20% lifesteal. sorry. especially if her mastery page has penetration runes and she has last whisper and infinity edge.item 3031 item 3046 item 3508 item 3094 item 3033 item 3072 = 265 damage + 100% critical +20% lifesteal without boots.

if you forgo an item for boots you lose a lot of our stats. also you have to remember that the damage dealt by thornmail is magic based damage and can be amplified by magic resistance reduction/penetration. if you're running thornmail and not running abyssal something is wrong.

you're also comparing a full build on ashe to a single item on rammus. not even close to being a fair comparison. more armor would mean more damage dealt to ashe as well as morrellonomicon's passive however i dont know if it works with thornmail.

Rozair2 votes

Rammus stats were based off of 400 armor and Thornmail. It's entirely hypothetical. The point is that if you factor in magic resist an adc can practically heal through the damage thornmail does. I stated that I played ashe vs rammus one time I had witts end quicksilver blade maw and Phantom dancer and rammus couldn't do anything to me

BLACK REALM GOD1 votes

item 3812 item 3001 item 3075 item 3083 item 3065 item 3068

if ashe buys wits end then she wont have 100% criticals or 300 damage. that is actually the entire purpose of wits end - to negate thornmail and other magic damage similar to thornmail.

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

[{quoted}](name=BLACK REALM GOD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EcTB8Oom,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2016-09-23T14:03:26.700+0000)

item 3812 item 3001 item 3075 item 3083 item 3065 item 3068

if ashe buys wits end then she wont have 100% criticals or 300 damage. that is actually the entire purpose of wits end - to negate thornmail and other magic damage similar to thornmail.

wits end is bad on her, a maw however would essentially completely nullify thornmail while still adding relatively decent AD and giving 10 armor pen to boot (along with its passive which adds 10% life steal and spell vamp and a magic shield, talk about making thornmail utterly worthless).

LongHair Fox1 votes

Please redo this and use a full build (using the most popular items, not whatever suits your tastes) for both rammus and ashe. While I still think that ashe can kill rammus without dying it should be a lot closer. Afterall if ashe dies just by shooting at rammus then ashe has no counterplay. If ashe can kill rammus he at least has the counterplay of getting some of his damage off not to meansion the natural thormail like ability he has.

Spoofghoul1 votes

did you include base ad and and mastery/runes ad and the option of having lifesteal from runes masteries aswell as flat pen from runes

BLACK REALM GOD1 votes

her base attack damage at level 18 isn't going to make enough of a difference to change the overall comparison. my point is that by comparing 1 item with pure armor to an opponent with multiple stats being built from multiple places skews the data in ashe's favor. when buying thornmail on any champion you buy it for the armor. the passive is a pleasant bonus. like i said above though im not sure if morellonomicon is affected by thornmail. if it is then there you go.

Spoofghoul1 votes

Yes item 3075 + item 3165 synergize

Once a target get below 35%hp from your thornmial or hits you after they get low then they gain grievous wounds for 8 seconds

Ive used this combo a few times on Sion in combo with cinder hulk and its pretty damn nice, but not really on any other tank because as one can see both items lack health. So your mana/cdr problems are mostly gone and you have armor but ideally you will need some mr and more armor as well as health which is kind of difficult on most tanks.

On Sion with strenght + scaling hp yellows & %hp quints as well as cinderhulk + 1 more hp item i can get to 5k health reliably due to W and most of Sions hp being bonus health anyways

On other tanks though its not an ideal combo due to lack of hp, its not worth sacrificing the hp for conditional grievous wounds.

So yes it works but its hardly ideal and it's tripple niche since you need someway to gain all that missing hp elsewhere along with some ap scalings to use the ability power and thornmail is only worth vs multiple basic attack reliant champs

So its only feasible combo on Sion, Malphite and Rammus really since thye meet all the requirements for it to function as long as there are over 2 basic attack reliant carry champs. Sion gains the hp Malphite/Rammus gain massive armor steroids so they can buy the hp, all 3 can make decent enough use out of morellonomicon.

Ok i digressed alot, next point

Also thornmail isn't just about the armor it has also always been for the passive making you a non viable target to attack for ADC. But with the powerfull pen items + abundance of lifesteal/mr neither it's armor nor its passive work well as deterrents anymore so its kind of thrash now hence why people want grievous wounds on it. And sure enought that would have been a very potent quickfix to a lot of the tanks vs adc problems but with preseason in sight its perhaps better to adress some of the current issue's there imho

BLACK REALM GOD1 votes

i think that it's fine as is. i've used it on taric to wipe out entire teams.

Commanderweeb1 votes

First you forgot Ashe has base damage of her own, 95 at lvl 18, second I don't believe Rammus reaches 400 armor with one item, this is just a overview of the interaction between between lifesteal and thornmail. However I really don't think the solution is to give Thornmail Grevious Wounds, kinda negates the only counterplay the item can have. If it reaches the late game Adc's should be able to kill you through it if it comes to just right clicking, that's why they give tanks CC and such.

l Dárius l2 votes

I have an issue with a Rammus or Malphite killing (or coming remotely close to killing ) an Ashe without touching her, because we all know Rammus and Malphite have way more than 2k hp if they build anything other than 6 Thornmails.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

A rammus that builds no health?

Ok.

Marshbouy1 votes

Thornmail was designed to mostly negate the healing that ADCs get, not completely delete their healing. Not to mention a tank just sitting there and killing someone by being hit is a wholly ridiculous idea.

Rozair1 votes

for starters rammus is incredibly easy to kite because he is slow without his q. Secondly whenever I am adc vs a rammus i get a quicksilver sash into quicksilver blade which adds more magic resist. I also build maw black cleaver and witts end. Now rammus cant touch me and there is nothing he can build that will. Adcs have the most optimal building paths in the game because they can build virtually any item and benifit while tanks and mages cannot. Look at the current meta item 3142 item 3071 item 3147

Rozair2 votes

Your ignoring the fact that if an adc has any source of armor pen and lifesteal they are going to melt a tank before the tank even has a chance

Miles The Man1 votes

{quoted}

Your ignoring the fact that if an adc has any source of armor pen and lifesteal they are going to melt a tank before the tank even has a chance

That's why every tank in the game has cc. For this very reason. Also, a tank is most likely not going to 1v1 an adc if they don't have a chance.

Rozair1 votes

The almighty adc that beats everyone

PermabannedGaren1 votes

{quoted}

if each champion had 2000 health

Why would we assume that a tank and an ADC had the same health? That's idiotic.

As is the idea that Rammus should literally be able to kill Ashe without needing to touch her purely due to cancermail.

Rozair1 votes

It was just an example. Relax

Sprisia1 votes

As a diamond ADC main, I'd LOVE to slap your shit right now.

It's hard enough as an ADC (other than Corki Graves ) against a thornmail. When you see one, its usually on a 250-300 armor tank, 3k+ HP. Think about that, thats 15% of the ADCs damage pre-mitigation. What that means is that the ADC will take around 100 damage for hitting you with a crit on a basic attack, not counting your bonus armor damage, which would be 250-300x0.25, or 63-75 more damage.

By buying a item 3072 , you're still unable to heal against that target, as its 20% lifesteal is applied AFTER mitigation. Meaning 20% of the 300 or so crit, or approx. 60 health.

Now, add in a item 3065, thats 45% reduced magic damage, (assuming 30 base + 55 from SV), 100 damage, add 63, 163x0.55, they're taking ~90 damage just for hitting you.

Meanwhile, the lifesteal at this point would be 20% of the mitigated 900 crit, or around 300 damage, 20% of that being 60, add 25% from SV, 75 health back. Thats still 15 damage back.

Im not sure why you think that would be fair, considering ADCs are left at a disadvantage for building that SV and still not having the lifesteal.

Even if you look at item 3139 +item 3072 , Thats 30% lifesteal, assuming 900 crit again, 30 base MR + 35 from Scimtar, leaves you at ~35% reduced magic damage.

163x0.65=~106. 30% Lifestealx300 post-mitigation damage, is 90 health back. Thats still 16 damage back just for hitting you.

Now lets figure if that was not a crit. 360 damage pre-mitigation, thats 360x0.15=54 damage+63 from armor. 117 damage, first case 45% reduction, 64 damage. 126 damage post mitigation, thats 31 health back, 33 damage taken.

Figure case two, 117 damage, 35% reduction, 76 damage. 126 post mitigation damage, 30% lifesteal is 38 health back. 38 damage taken.

Keepe1 votes

Putting GW on Thornmail ain't happening. Nor should it.

Coming out with some for of GW item MIGHT, however, but the last thing a tank needs is a Zhonya's Ring.

The Deckowner1 votes

armor isn't just simply damage reduction against ad, but instead extra % of effective health against physical damage.

for example, if Rammus has 100 armor and 1000 hp, and ashe has 100 ad, she will need to attack rammus 20 times.

if rammus has 200 armor and 1000 hp, and ashe has 100 ad, she will need 30 aa.

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

No. It would be better if thornmail returned true damage instead of magic.

Unless if the thornmail grievous wounds lasted for only a second or so, it would actually severely harm many melee champions that interact with tanks on the frontline but don't rely on lifesteal for their form of healing (darius, illaoi, trundle, etc.).

Basically, this would fuck over juggernauts since adc's could build lord dominiks and let the thornmail tank apply the grievous wounds on the juggernaut for them.

Having thornmail return true damage would help nullify a ton of lifesteal. On the flipside, it could force adcs on full lifesteal builds since it can become oppressive to pure crit builds with maybe only one lifesteal item. Delicate situation.

You could also do something where thornmail has a unique passive that cuts only lifesteal by 50%. A pseudo-grievous wounds so to speak would be made to target adcs without potentially harming other classes.

Kaioko1 votes

I agree thornmail needs a buff I however disagree that it should have grievous wounds. The idea of a tank killing an ADC just by standing there and getting hit and having absolutely no way to counter that is extremely dumb. This is especially prevalent late game where ADCs are suppose to be able to kill tanks.

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