Simple (and last) Question on Karma's Shield Changes

SilverSquid··43 votes·3,685 views

Trying to make this short.

  • LeeSin lost his ability to shield minions, but had his ability to jump to them retained to allow for some interesting minion interaction
  • Lulu lost her ability to shield minions, but had her ability to place Pix on them retained to allow for some intersting minion interaction
  • Karma lost her ability to shield minions, but also had her ability to use them to better aim R+E REMOVED, erasing some intersting minion interactions.

Why?

  • Spending your mantra wouldn't be worth it for denying minions
  • New players wouldn't accidentally shield minions instead of allies with E
  • This would still allow you to extend your RE reach via minions to hit distant allies
  • This would still allow you to aim RE more carefully to hit more allies at once

Overall it would've retained Karma's skillexpression without leaving the problematic part of minion denial. And I am wondering if there is a good reason for this.

Thanks for reading

46 Comments

SlashStriker11 votes

Karma Karma Shield is problem but TahmKench Tom Konch and Lulu Lulucifer shields ain't problem

inplane5 votes

I guess Riot hates abilities that are able to deny minions. Meanwhile Yasuo has an ability that does that on an AOE scale. I bet if Riot took away Yasuo's ability to windwall the dragon's attack people would be throwing a hissy fit on the boards and would be reverted.

Oh well. I'm not really expecting Karma to last much longer in her current state. She has become one of, if not the, League's blandest champs to exist.

SilverSquid3 votes

Well, they don't like direct minion denial. This is why they can stomach Yasuo, Braum and Teemo, even if they arguably are more BS. However, I don't want to fight their logic on this. I'd rather spend my time challenging their inconsistency on related mechanics.

Megazoz3 votes

It's on a 24s cooldown man.

SilverSquid6 votes

26-18s cooldown, but can deny nearly a whole wave of minions, or completely mess up your lasthitting under tower, with no chance of retaliation.

Bladerunner77772 votes

If Yasuo wastes his windwall then that means he has no windwall and you can use any spell on him without fear of it getting blocked for 24 seconds...

maikokk6 votes

why would he care about that when a wave of minions is pushed up and he has a shield available becase you havnt hit him yet. im not goign to sit here and BW the yas hate, but he literaly can deny you a whole wave of minions at your tower if you let him push you. and he loses nothing for doing so

Bladerunner77771 votes

No mention of the fact that his windwall lasts 3.75 seconds and it's on a 26 sec cd?

Literally complaining about his windwall/shield even though those are the healthiest thing in his kit (they can be played around easily).

If you want to complain about Yasuo, complain about his E damage or crit passive. The windwall can be played around (keep track of it's cd or just move around it so he can't hide behind it), and his passive shield can be popped with 1 auto attack (poke him once before engaging on him).

  • Yasuo using windwall to deny your cs intentionally is a waste

  • Yasuo wasting windwall is extremely punishable

Photos of Ghosts1 votes

Meanwhile, Yi has less gapclosers, no shield, no windwall, and he's a threat.

inplane4 votes

{quoted}

It's on a 24s cooldown man.

It better stay that way. His E and Q are already absurd enough.

TNHA Baritone5 votes

Riot no like Karma

Pyrophilia4 votes

Thumbnail pic? I beg of you.

Also you are beautiful. I've read most of the threads and your analysis is always measured and accurate, and it's really a shame it'll all likely go to waste. I don't know why they hate our Duchess.

SilverSquid3 votes

Thanks StarsShaper. You beat me to this one.

I still have troubles reading some deliberate duchess denial into this. Riot just seems to be distracted by problemcases, reworks and worlds, while their life-balance-team appears to have no clue about Karma's identity or balance. I hope to spread understanding and awareness for her case to counteract this. No matter how feeble my chances might be.

Thank you for your kind words, though. They mean more to me than most of the upvotes.

Bladerunner77772 votes

karma mains are like cassiopeia mains where they post kawaii pics in the thumbnail in every karma/cassio thread they make

Dr Poro4 votes

I think Riot doesn't want to do this because it increases Karma's skill cap and she already performs better at higher elo/organized teams.

It's also a bit counter intuitive to new players. 'Oh so when you use ult, you can suddenly cast it on minions too'. (This is probably not a sufficient argument, but might aid in conjunction with the first)

SilverSquid7 votes

It's also a bit counter intuitive to new players. 'Oh so when you use ult, you can suddenly cast it on minions too'.

This is a good argument

I think Riot doesn't want to do this because it increases Karma's skill cap and she already performs better at higher elo/organized teams.

This isn't. Karma has a really low skillceiling already. She performed so well because of an overbuffed RE that can't be countered, dodged, missed and is always up. Reliability like that is king in competitive.

If she had more options to fail at high levels, she would be more balanced.

Sogreth2 votes

I really hated this change =/

I was fine with them lowering the Shield amount, but there was NO reason to remove interaction with minions. But apparenlty Karma is "dominant" LOL! I still laugh at that.

And even if she was, lowering the amount of her Shield AND lowering the speed boost was all it needed. Not her utility.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-615-notes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/B2y4p4vE-pre-worlds-early-game-update

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/ZEg3fE3j-a-few-gameplay-updates

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/o7nazGfh-state-of-the-season-mid-season-followup?show=flat&comment=00290000 (I don't know if this link will work, but it's Meddler's 18th comment out of 38)

There you go. Every single instance I could find where Riot has specifically stated that 6.14-6.18 has a primary focus with World's.

You already know the answer to this question but you keep asking it, so here we are. This benefit that shows Karma players' expertise is too powerful in the hands of professionals because it's very difficult for the enemy team to play around.

The point of nerfing Karma is to get pros to stop playing her. By removing the aspect of her kit that makes her most attractive (exploiting poor wave clear to get a team wide AOE speed buff without needing to clump together) they are going to cut her pick rate down nicely.

SilverSquid3 votes

None of those links explain why they would nerf that part of her utility, that is not an issue in pro play.

The point of nerfing Karma is to get pros to stop playing her. By removing the aspect of her kit that makes her most attractive (exploiting poor wave clear to get a team wide AOE speed buff without needing to clump together) they are going to cut her pick rate down nicely.

Number nerfs would've done the same without impacting her skillexpression. In the end she was not "viable" before her 6.6 buffs.

Nidalee SO NYAAA1 votes

I love talking to people in high elo they say this almost changes nothing but you go to the boards sounds like the sky is falling. I know a lot people whine on the boards seems to be more the last few weeks.

SilverSquid1 votes

Because they drop Karma like a hot potatoe once she is UP again. It changes nothing about the meta, it doesn't make her UP or OP, it just makes her slighly more bland.

Kouhey1 votes

Aside from the extensive RE use, Karma practically doesn't want to E minions, you may deny last hits but that's not really impactful that it's gone. But there are many cases which you accidentally shield a minion when fighting, which often turns bad, I think that's the main reason the minion interaction got removed, in order to nerf the overall power of current Karma - 1. take away denying potential; 2. Remove the said extensive RE interation; 3. Compensate with the removal of "missed shield".

In other words. Lulu and Lee sin lost the ability to shield minion but still able to target them because they actually need to target minion to get some plays off, and Riot took away the ability to shield minions as a part of the nerfs. On the other hand, Karma generally doesn't want to even target minions, unless you want to pull off the said RE interaction, but that's really no common play, instead, making it not able to target minions ensures that you don't miss a shield in close fights.

SilverSquid1 votes

Lulu could still place her Pix on other champions or enemy minions and have a decent Pix interaction. Lee Sin could be balanced around jumping to champions only, since he is already hyper mobile.

I believe those things were kept because they were fun and showed skill, not because they were needed. I appreciate your very solid reasoning, but it doesn't seem quite true yet.

Especially about the "Karma doesn't want to E minions". Historically she always did have that shieldbomb interaction and always wanted to do it. Less since the removal of the damage part. But still; for pushing towers it was something you would do multiple times in a game.

BloodyTompon1 votes

If you can't sheild the minion it would be odd that you can target it for Karma. Lee and Lulu have interactions outside of the shield that work with the minions in a more intuitive way.

SilverSquid1 votes

It's probably also odd that Lee can jump to wards in the first place.

BloodyTompon1 votes

That was initially a bug that they decided to support, but that's kind of missing the point. Lee's targeting encompasses a dash as well as the shield. Lulu's has pix location. They make sense without the shield being applied to minions. The targeting makes sense without the shield. However, Karma's shield does not. The targeting does not make sense on a minion in the absence of the shield (I'm assuming you want to retain the targeting but not the shield to be consistent with Lee and Lulu) because the only thing that is applied is movement speed. Effectively, all it allows is to 'cheat' the range.

SilverSquid2 votes

I thought you were arguing from a newbie's perspective, where both the ward jumping and minion-RE wouldn't make much sense instinctively.

I personally think it would make most sense to have RE deal damage, so it still has a use outside of that shield. And yes, it's "cheating the range". Or "understanding your champion to an extent so you can use all of their nuances to your advantage" as I would call it.

Oksanaandjoy1 votes

I think it's a bit rough that the interaction has been taken away. There are lots of abilities that allow interesting minion interaction, notably and most recently, Ryze's ult.

On a slightly off/related topic, if her E can target jungle monsters, I think it should also be able to target super minions. Her ability to clear these is ridiculously weak.

I also question why Le Blanc's tether slows by 25% and Karma's does not. With Le Blanc's burst, if she lands it, a squishier champ is dead. A champ fighting Karma is much more chance of surviving if she does manage to maintain the tether till it roots. Le Blanc's tether is a skill shot, but I don't the the additional 25% makes up the difference. I'd like to see Karma with the same slow. She is a poke champ this gives her a chance to maintain that distance.

SilverSquid3 votes

I think you mean W? But yes, you are right. With one damage ability it is really rough.

LeBlanc is a skillshot, so it should be better. But I too agree; LeBlanc's tether overall seems better. Karma's W nearly requires you to use E to guarantee it hits (either for the damage you take in exchange, or the speedboost you need to apply it).

She is a poke champ this gives her a chance to maintain that distance.

I strongly dislike Karma's forced identity as a poke champ. I don't think she should be one and I don't think her abilities should be changed to retain that identity.

Oksanaandjoy1 votes

Yeah, W. Thanks for that.

If she's not a poke champ, then what?

Darkwind1 votes

Something resembling a battle mage / enchanter hybrid IMO.

Silversquid's thread on the topic: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/sA0ra4aX-is-karma-a-disruptive-bursty-battle-artillery-enchanter

Witch of Babylon1 votes

Why did they nerf her she has a 49% winrate.

SilverSquid1 votes

The current patches are focused on competitive play, where she is performing too well. They don't mind if she drops a few percent points to get her in line. They will probably grant her another numbers buff once worlds are over.

LoL Ergo Urgot1 votes

Sounds like something that would make her harder to play against..

Downvoted.

SilverSquid3 votes

Retaining a mechanic that she had for years is making her harder to play.

Wat.

Warden Karma1 votes

Spending your mantra wouldn't be worth it for denying minions

I never Mantra'd an E just to deny Minions, I sometimes tryed to deny the cannon Minion with a regular E, but it actually didnt payed off that well (either the enemy adc did too much damage or I were running out of Mana too quickly). Overall I (and since Riot does not like Minion deny) think letting Karma at least be able to RE Minions would have been the best way (without the shield given to the minion). So you can still trade shield for range.

I think they wont do anything to Karma anytime soon that actually helps her out of her situation; maybe even using the "we will look into Karma (rework) when we are looking into her class/Ionian Event..." feels more like: "We will rework Karma again when the sun rises in the west and sets in the east and when we start to care about a Champions core fanbase."

Also, as always I am leaving some Ideas here for a Karma Rework :)

[Q] Zone of Destruction/Zone of Harmony

Karma creates a Zone (350 Range) at target location after a brief delay, dealing 2/3/4/5/6% (+1% AP) of the actual Life of enemies hit as Magic damage and slowing enemies inside the Zone for 25%. The Damage is capped for each tick (20/30/40/50 plus 20% AP). The Zone lasts for 3 Seconds, applying its damaging Effect every Second.

[Mantra] The Zone also heals Allies inside and on impact for 2/3/4/5/6% (+1% AP) of their missing Health and slows now for 50%.

[W] Spirit Bond/ Focused Bond

Bonds to the target Q Zone center or E shielded target until the effect ends or Karma moves more than 1200 Range away from her target. While bonded, W Transfers some Effects of other Abilities to enemies within 150 Range around the tether or within 450 Range of Karma for allies.

Q Bond: your tether will deal DoT damage, while (when Mantrad) allies around Karma are healed periodically (Karma is only healed when standing in RQ’s Zone). E Bond: allies around Karma receive a Movementspeedbonus, while the tether will deal instant Damage to enemies.

[+Mantra] When bonded to a Zone, W’s tether will also apply a 0,75/1/1,25/1,5 Second root to enemies while when bonded to an E’d target, all allies around Karma will gain a 30/90/140/210 (+30% AP) Shield.

[E] Inspire/ Defiance

Shields the target ally for 70/100/130/160/190 (+50% AP) and grants it +40/45/50/55/60% Movementspeed for 1,5 Seconds. The Shield lasts 4 Seconds. Minions shielded will only benefit from the Movementspeed.

[Mantra] The Shield erupts, dealing 70/100/130/160/190 (+50% AP) magic damage to enemies within 600 Range and granting allies +60% Movementspeed for 1,5 Seconds.

[R] Mantra

Karma gains 1 Mantra charge each 45/40/35/30 Seconds, up to a maximum of 2. [Passive] Dealing damage to an enemy Champion reduces that Cooldown by 1 Second.

Basic Damaging Lane Combo: Place Q a bit behind your enemy, then RW on Q and RE yourself. Try to hit the enemy with your DoT + snare tether while the enemy is still inside your Q for double the damage. The MS from your E and slow from your Q helps you to position better.

Aside from that many decision making + combos are possible. No Passive yet.

Hope it Inspires you :)

SilverSquid1 votes

feels more like: "We will rework Karma again when the sun rises in the west and sets in the east and when we start to care about a Champions core fanbase."

I have become cynical too, but still believe in the good intentions of Riot. I do agree that's what it feels like, but I have taught myself to not get lead by my emotions. They are a fuel that tends to burn me up quite quickly. And occasionally burns people around me too with the quickstart I get.

Riot is trying. Riot is distracted. We have to evaluate whether their distraction is for objectively more important reasons and then work with what we get.

Also, as always I am leaving some Ideas here for a Karma Rework :)

You are a trooper! Thanks, as always. I will leave some thoughts to try and repay you.

Karma creates a Zone (350 Range) at target location after a brief delay, dealing 2/3/4/5/6% (+1% AP) of the actual Life of enemies hit as Magic damage

I think you might want to adopt Riot's language and write "current healthpoints". Also, do you mean range or size? 350 range is very short.

The Zone also heals Allies inside and on impact for 2/3/4/5/6% (+1% AP) of their missing Health and slows now for 50%.

Going for a targeted zone with dualistic damage. I like it. It's needed and I think I've used it before for the same reason. Not sure about the slow. Is it needed for Karma's placement stuff? Riot usually uses slows sometimes to make things feel more impactful. I don't know if a zone that you should escape of because of constant damage should also make it hard to escape. Initial damage (Morgana W) could make sense here instead of it, but I don't think the slow is a problem or anything. Just some thoughts.

Bonds to the target Q Zone center

See, this is interesting. I have spottet that, to keep W in her kit, she needs new interactions with her W. In my current test-iteration I am using RQ to create an AoE Statue/Medallion/Crest that she can tether to. I think it needs to be a physical thing to make sense, a zone feels very awkward.

But it's remarkable that you came up with nearly the same idea as me (well, you made it more dynamic as two base abilities interact with each other, while I only have it on mantra). Maybe this is the Edison thing, where the invention of the lightbulb was just about time and it was just the matter of one mind formulating it.

The rest of W doesn't work, I think. It has the W problem, as always, getting overloaded too quickly and confused on what it's supposed to do and confusing for anyone reading it. The "next to tether" thing is very awkward to do visually and in terms of gameplay, fairness and.... well, everything. It's creative nonetheless, and I think there's some good in there. Will probably still only take the "tether to another spell" thing.

Minions shielded will only benefit from the Movementspeed.

I was kind of confused why you did this. Why would you want to speed up minions. But it's a cheeky way to get around that "why can Karma's RQ suddnely target minions?". Cheeky, clever, but not quite clear. Clear as in spotless. Spotless as in unproblematic. Still clever. I like it, but won't use it. Will keep it in mind tho.

The rest is decent work, as usual, but mainly a reassemling of lego pieces we have already seen. But at this point, I think all of it does. One of my current problems is, that none of my iterations hit the mark I set with my last rework, so I struggle to even reach half the quality.

The curse of success, I guess. But I will keep trying. Thanks for doing it too!

Warden Karma1 votes

Hey Silver :) Happy that you found time to bite through my Ideas^^

Riot is trying. Riot is distracted. We have to evaluate whether their distraction is for objectively more important reasons and then work with what we get.

They better are XD (no honestly I believe they acknowledge that Karma is a Problem but they dont seem to know what to do/ push her away for now. Maybe one Day we will have a decent Karma again).

I think you might want to adopt Riot's language and write "current healthpoints". Also, do you mean range or size? 350 range is very short.

No its the Zone size, so somewhat around Lux' E. All Numbers are tbd as always.

Going for a targeted zone with dualistic damage. I like it. It's needed and I think I've used it before for the same reason. Not sure about the slow. Is it needed for Karma's placement stuff? Riot usually uses slows sometimes to make things feel more impactful. I don't know if a zone that you should escape of because of constant damage should also make it hard to escape. Initial damage (Morgana W) could make sense here instead of it, but I don't think the slow is a problem or anything. Just some thoughts.

Hmm, good point. I guess I only kept the slow cause its currently on her Q. Combining it with initial Damage and a slow zone or other combinations might seem better though. Didnt felt so happy with this Q anyway^^

See, this is interesting. I have spottet that, to keep W in her kit, she needs new interactions with her W. In my current test-iteration I am using RQ to create an AoE Statue/Medallion/Crest that she can tether to. I think it needs to be a physical thing to make sense, a zone feels very awkward.

In visuals, there would be somekind of... Orb? in the middle of the Zone so imagine Orinanna's Ball with W underlying and you bound to the Ball.

But it's remarkable that you came up with nearly the same idea as me (well, you made it more dynamic as two base abilities interact with each other, while I only have it on mantra). Maybe this is the Edison thing, where the invention of the lightbulb was just about time and it was just the matter of one mind formulating it.

Not the first time to happen :O (I believe it happenend before with basic E is a shieldbomb and some other stuff) So maybe... we are on the right path?^^ I think making the tether W to her Q/E (maybe without the touching effect) is one of the only, not so weird solutions that actually brings some new Ideas and interesting choices, while... well keeping the tether.

Why only having it on Mantra though? Cause of the Overload potential? I guess I wanted it to be only RW too, but I decided that having that much choices/decisions on a basic Level would be better (you already do decision stuff with Mantra anyway). I also think with W being able to target Q it would make sense to let it target E too. In theory, E could be a placed somewhat, that grants allies shield/ms while in range (so its more in line with Q then), but the question is... does the summon/zone things suit Karma?

The most simple thing to do would be to let W "copy" the effects; creating a second Q/E Zone (but that might make her too easy to play (thats why I kept the touch the tether game on my version)) or strenghten them in some way (bigger radius?).

The rest of W doesn't work, I think. It has the W problem, as always, getting overloaded too quickly and confused on what it's supposed to do and confusing for anyone reading it. The "next to tether" thing is very awkward to do visually and in terms of gameplay, fairness and.... well, everything. It's creative nonetheless, and I think there's some good in there. Will probably still only take the "tether to another spell" thing.

Well I found it actually quite Simple: If the Tether has Damage on it: Red with "red flying dots flying around the tether within some range" (like Old Karma's W effect but boarder); if no damage on it: grey simple line. In essence, Karma is creating an Aura around herself too (think Sona) that grants benefits (Movementspeed if tethered E, Purple Aura?) or Heal when RQ were tethered (Green Aura?).

Hmm ok, with the Mantra it might be a little bit overloaded^^

So we found a way to make W much more interesting; do we find a way to make it fair, readable and not overloaded too?

I was kind of confused why you did this. Why would you want to speed up minions. But it's a cheeky way to get around that "why can Karma's RQ suddnely target minions?". Cheeky, clever, but not quite clear. Clear as in spotless. Spotless as in unproblematic. Still clever. I like it, but won't use it. Will keep it in mind tho.

It was the simpliest solution I could think of.

The rest is decent work, as usual, but mainly a reassemling of lego pieces we have already seen. But at this point, I think all of it does. One of my current problems is, that none of my iterations hit the mark I set with my last rework, so I struggle to even reach half the quality.

Many ways are bringing you to a good Karma Riot. The Ways are there, but you have to walk.

The curse of success, I guess. But I will keep trying. Thanks for doing it too!

Guess I can never stop. Ideas will come and hunt me until I wrote them down ^^ (Usually Ideas come very spontanously and I write them down within 30 mins to 90 mins, trying to make a somewhat functional kit with that. I might still have entire reworks which I didnt show you (I just dont know which XD)).

I just lack the Energy atm to post a full rework Idea with explanations to make it more convincing/understandable etc.. I also have a "Karma discussion only" Skype account if you are interested to be bombed with silly, "creative", strange and/or crappy Ideas out of nowhere at random times ^^ (But be warned I am not so often online with it; But sooner or later I check from time to time)

Thank you for bringing up the Energy and write thoses Posts out there and trying too ^^

Warden Karma1 votes

Also its interesting what they wrote on today's Patchnotes for Irelia:

Irelia’s the type of against-all-odds champion who turns disadvantages into advantages. Stunning her opponents when they get ahead and shrugging off crowd control when surrounded lets her pull off surprising comebacks and flashy moments of aggression. Irelia is known for fighting off a Noxian invading force while fiercely outnumbered, but her passive isn’t currently hitting that tone; it just makes her generically hard to lock down in teamfights. Playing Irelia should feel like beating impossible odds, but when she’s surrounded by her team, she doesn’t have any odds to beat. Irelia’s passive will now track the number of allies as well as enemies, with a shorter range so your backline Xerath isn’t ruining your sick plays.

I remember that we came up with the same concept of Passive for Karma, but instead of tenacity it was ap; but we quickly agreed that a Passive of this kind changes its effects too quickly in Teamfights while also being hard to track for enemies and allies alike. In addition on that we felt that a "I just bend to odds for me if you have an advantage" was a very good way to decribe Karma as a Champion, but it seemed also very unfair and therefore hard to translate into gameplay.

On top of all that, Riot even speaks about Lore-Gameplay connections. I have no words left for that.

Overall a bit we can use to argument for Karma, which is the upside of it.

"One by one their arguments will fall."

SilverSquid1 votes

I very curiously followed that Irelia change. For once because she is Ionian. And also because I desired to know how Riot currently handles those kinds of passives.

Well, the thing here is, that Karma's crest lights up during her mantra, whereas Irelia's crest only lights up when outnumbered. This change, quite frankly, made it more easy to track when she would gain that benefit, since it's not staggered, but rather off/powersaving/on. 3 stages instead of 5.

Karma can't have the lighting parts as easily as it conflicts with her mantra. So we can only do the passive thing for her if mantra doesn't have the visuals anymore.

Still, I am curious; if they are doing it for Irelai for these very reasons, what will they do for Karma? Or will they just update Shen and Irelia and Akali and tell us they will do Karma in an Ionian update? I don't know if I am serious or cynical anymore.

Warden Karma1 votes

{quoted}

Karma can't have the lighting parts as easily as it conflicts with her mantra. So we can only do the passive thing for her if mantra doesn't have the visuals anymore.

It could be indicated very easily without the lighting parts; its not like its the only way to show it visually ^^

'throwing pebble'

[passive] Enemies considered in battle with Champions will gain each second 8% of their actual Health as black Health. Dealing damage with an Ability to such an enemy, will consume 35% of their black health for the same amount magic damage done to them. While Allies effected or touching any of Karma’s Abilities will gain 8% of their missing health as a shield. Both Effects stack up to a maximum of 2, while they decay over 1,5 Seconds.

Visual: 1 Stack = one Twin Dragon from her Gathering Fire Symbol. 2 Stacks = both Twin Dragons close to the health bar. Passive has some counterplay (dodge Abilities, time attacks) while also having skill expression (a really good Karma (e.g.with current kit) can Shield with RQ allies too.)

As a side note: I once looked at every Innate Passive in Game and put them into 4 Categories:

  1. Completely Counterable - example: none
  2. Semi Counterable - example: Anivia You can kill her egg.
  3. Minimum Counterplay - example: Thresh In theory you can deny him getting Souls.
  4. No Counterplay - example: Olaf His Passive cant be denied or dodged in any way other than not damaging him, which is no option (stying out of range also is no argument for counterplay).

And also in Meele, short ranged and long ranged Champions. This Diagramm were made out of a total of 124 Champions that time.

https://s10.postimg.org/krrjytuvd/Innate_Passives.png

https://s9.postimg.org/z1q4oc6wf/Innate_Passive_2.png

As a result you can see that with increasing Range of a Champion, the innate Passive becomes more likely to be countered.

Dont know maybe its somewhat useful for you. I believe I originally made this cause Karma's old Passive were blamed for having no Counterplay.

SilverSquid1 votes

Dude, I love your creativity, but I am still slightly confused. When would they get black health? Globally? How do you convey this on people with full hp? Like a shield? How much hp does stack? Endlessly? What if there are two Karmas in the game? What are those 2 stacks you are talking about?

  1. Completely Counterable - example: Karma Don't get hit, lol

Pretty cool statistics though! They look like quite some work and yield interesting information. Thank you for sharing!

I might take away this idea with having a passive that shields every champion your spells touch. There seems to be potential in there. For my current iteration, I am nearly done, I just have to create the post around it (can't add stuff from you for now). It's gonna be a long one again. Oh boy.

Warden Karma1 votes

When would they get black health?

Enemies considered in battle with Champions will gain each second 8% of their actual Health as black Health. --> for each second you are in battle, you gain 1 stack of Karma (=8% actual Health).

Globally?

Didnt put a range yet, thought it be around 1200.

How do you convey this on people with full hp? Like a shield? How much hp does stack? Endlessly?

Actually you wont get additional health, it works a little more like grey health, but instead of you loose health and get as much grey health, your current Health is blackened.

Example: You are full health and have 2 Stacks on you --> 16% of your actual Health is black. Lets say you have 1000 Health --> 160 Health of that is black An Enemy deals 700 Damage to you, you have 300 Health left --> 48 Health is black Enemy Karma throws a Q at you --> consumes a third of the 48 Black Health -> Q deals 16 more Magic Damage to you while you have 32 Black Health left. Both Effects stack up to a maximum of 2, while they decay over 1,5 Seconds. Meaning maximum is 16% of actual/missing Health.

To prevent endlessly black health stacking (in longer fights) you might get a "grace" period after gaining 2 stacks of 10 Seconds, before being able to be "black healthed" again.

What if there are two Karmas in the game? What are those 2 stacks you are talking about?

The Multiverse ends. (I guess it would just work like it would when 1 Karma is in game. Shield mechanic is normal anyway (adds silver Health in addition to normal health) while Black health dyes normal Health... this time just an both sides).

Pretty cool statistics though! They look like quite some work and yield interesting information. Thank you for sharing!

Thanks^^ Dont remember how I rated everything, but overall its direction should be representive.

I might take away this idea with having a passive that shields every champion your spells touch. There seems to be potential in there. For my current iteration, I am nearly done, I just have to create the post around it (can't add stuff from you for now). It's gonna be a long one again. Oh boy.

Ah the most energy taking part of creating a post; Good luck! I guess there will be a "next" time for a Karma rework suggestion for a pretty long time... so maybe next time you can add some stuff if its seems worth.

Curious, as always, how your post will do (especially what people say to the W-Q interaction) and what it contains :)

SilverSquid1 votes

Both Effects stack up to a maximum of 2, while they decay over 1,5 Seconds.

Jebus on a bycycle, I had to reread your post 3 times to finally get this. The 8% black health stacks up to 16% (8%x2) and the 8% shield can only be applied twice (up to 16% shield). And ONLY enemies get the black shield, so two Karmas are less of a problem, as both teams can only have one source of black health (excluding one-for-all gamemodes).

I don't wanna be rude, but you might wanna phrase this more clearly^^. Black health might also be confusing, as to how much hp a champion actually has. You also might want to make the effects decay after 1.5s, not over 1.5s. Just my suggestion though (i dunno how effective an immediately decaying shield is).

Curious, as always, how your post will do (especially what people say to the W-Q interaction) and what it contains :)

Currently having troubles with putting my foot down on the visuals of RW and the exact values for R. Well, and making the post more easily digestable. I hope I can get it done this week (since I technically don't have a weekend, fr-su are still part of my week :3 ).

Warden Karma1 votes

Ahh, Silver!

Ive come to write down another Rework Idea, which I think seems to be very good (or well i am just hyped cause its my newest work). XD

Here it comes: Short: Karma summons the Power of Ionia’s Twin Dragons to protect her people. Doing so, she does not hesitate to join her allies and friends in battle, sharing their hardship. Her Inner Fire causes Enemies to leave the battle against her and her people, while inspiring her allies to quickly leave or join a battle. Being spiritually bond to her summoned Twin Dragons, she can awaken them, bearing a great threat and causes Fear in the hearts of her Enemies. Those, who face her and her allies will strengthen their resilience, ultimately being punished for doing harm to them and allies who are willing to die alongside her, will be rewarded.

Aka: Balance, Twin Dragons with a karmatic touch.

Please Note: I didnt do a passive yet/ decided whether it should have 1 or 2 Mantras.

[Q] Inner Fire/ Soulflare Karma sends out spiritual Energies in a line, stopping at the first enemy hit and deals 80/ 125/ 170/ 215/ 260 (+60% AP) magic Damage within a small radius, summoning the Twin Dragon Boros to apply to the main target. Boros will radiate its Aura within 250 Range and disappears after 2,5 Seconds if not bond with.

Boros: Slows enemies by 20%, half for the primary target. The slow is doubled if the enemy is attacking or using abilities.

[+Mantra] Increases Boro’s influence Range to 400. Allies entering Boro’s Aura for the first time are healed for 30/60/90/120 + 6% (+2% AP) of their missing Health.

[W] Spirit Bond/ Focused Resolve Bounds Karma spiritually to a Twin Dragon for 2,0 Seconds, awakening it and preventing it to disappear for the duration of the bond. The bound breaks if the distance between the two becomes too great and the Twin Dragon disappears after the bond ends in any way.

The awakening will deal 60/ 110/ 160/ 210/ 260 (+70%) magic Damage to enemies inside if the bond persists for its duration, dealing 50% more Damage to Enemies Attack or using Abilities.

[+Mantra] Enemies hit by the awakening are rooted for 1,5 Seconds.

[E] Inspire/ Defiance Karma summons the Twin Dragon Ouro for 4 Seconds to protect the target ally with a Shield, which absorbs 70/ 100/ 130/ 160/ 190 (+50% AP) Damage. Ouro will radiate its Aura within 250 Range and disappears after 2,5 Seconds if not bond with.

Ouro: Speeds up allies to move 40% faster. Allies attacking or using Abilities will only benefit from half that amount.

[+Mantra] Increases Ouros influence Range to 400. Enemies entering Ouro’s Aura for the first time are dealt 60/140/210/300 (+60% AP) magic Damage.

Visuals Q/E: When the ally/enemy steps inside the Aura for the first time, the Aura dyes from green/red to grey for that specific Ally/enemy (may have a “water drop drops into still water effect”, which stops when stepped inside to indicate that you already got this effect).

In Essence:

If you get hit by her Q, you are quite screwed and should move away from karma and your allies, as you would slow them and if Karma casts W on you you are becoming a even greater threat for your allies (break the tether). You get hit by RQ: a double reason for you to stay out battles as you bring Slow to your allies and heals to your enemies.

E is pretty much the same, but just reversed; instead of moving away you shouldnt move into that as an enemy.

Plus: Counterplay, versatile use and interaction is possible RQ/Q: dodge it, delay attack, choose your actions wisely as it will influence your allies and the enemies W: break the tether, zone Karma E: delay attack/ move wisely/choose your actions wisely

Hope you like it as much as I do right now :)

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