I hope people realize that giving him mana costs would make him a free win after 10 minutes with how his kit works.
He'd just build CDR/tank with one or two damage items at most and then faceroll everything.
Sure he'd be a bit weaker for the first few minutes but this would legit make him more broken than you guys can fathom if you still think he's OP right now.
Digivolve4 votesu forgot the part where we give him old zilean mana costs so he has to build tear+chalice to not run out of mana after 2 spell rotations.
thinking man3 votesu forgot the part where we give him old zilean mana costs so he has to build tear+chalice to not run out of mana after 2 spell rotations.
His low CDs and the fact that he's not a bunch of point-and-click high-power cancer in all of his abilities basically guarantees that he'd have relatively low mana costs. None of his abilities are independently powerful compared to how Zilean's Q/E were both immensely powerful.
Digivolve2 votesdude it takes a ton of mana to throw a shuriken, not to mention making a shadow clone and making it spin in circles, shit makes you dizzy.
I mean placing a deathmark might not cost to much but those other abilities would have to cost about 150 mana each to be fair seeing as they are such hard tasks to accomplish.
Critmaster Garen4 votesnerf the damage on his q against minions.
put more damage into his e. what anoys the shit out of me, is how passive he can play by hanging back and waveclearing with his q and w + q chain.
if they shifted power into his e, he would have to get much closer to waveclear. i dont think zed is op in general. but i find it terrible how a halfway competent zed basically never has to leave lane.
He gets it for the cdr.
doesnt blue also increase energy regeneration slightly?
MeesterMoo1 votesI think it does by one point
ilt3 voteswhy people complaining about Zed?
thinking man2 voteswhy people complaining about Zed?
idk I made a thread 2 days ago about Zed and people still believe he's OP so I just assumed that would've remained true to today.
ChargeItDownMid1 votes[deleted]
thinking man3 votesHe is overpowered at high elo
You're the exact same elo I am and all of my friends who are higher than both of us think he's only good at all in competitive.
isKOPPEN3 votespeople still cry about zed? LMAO
ChargeItDownMid2 votes[deleted]
thinking man7 votesWhat item build are you refering to and how would this item build be better if he had mana compared to if he had energy? There are only 2 items which are stronger on mana champions and those are the archangel staff and manamune. All other mana items are just as strong on manaless champions as they are on mana champions.
? Frozen Heart?
Just the way his kit works would be stronger with mana because being able to go high CDR Zed would be immensely powerful. Energy is already the most gating resource outside of lane.
ChargeItDownMid6 votes[deleted]
thinking man4 votesHe can build frozen heart now and get every benefit that he would get if he were to get mana. His kit right now is essentially resource-less so he won't be any less resource-gated if he had mana and built frozen heart.
His kit is most definitely not resourceless lol. Energy is, once again, the most gating resource outside of lane. His energy regen isn't anywhere near as plentiful as Lee's is, for example. He's most definitely gated if he doesn't play well or spams excessively.
Furthermore, you don't seem to be getting the point of Frozen Heart. It gives you extra spell casts since that 400 mana isn't wasted on an item that otherwise wouldn't be too good on Zed.
ChargeItDownMid1 votes[deleted]
City of Toronto5 votesFrozen heart only grants spell casts on champions who are resource gated. Zed is his current state is already essentially re sourceless so him with mana won't be getting any more spells to cast.
Right then. I suppose all Zeds that take blue from their mana-hungry junglers only want it for the exp and measly 40 some gold.
ChargeItDownMid1 votes[deleted]
Rinky Dinky2 votesNo, he gets it for the energy regen.
Have you played Zed?
Or Akali?
Or Kennen?
Or.... anyone with energy?
T RexHasLongLegs1 votesI think the difference the original poster was discussing is that you can run out of energy much faster than mana given the small pool. If you have ever played zed you can definitely spam stuff fast enough to run out of energy (especially if you miss refunds, zed's mechanics are tough enough there is a reason why he legit just shouldn't be played sub plat or at least sub high gold) and the moments where a zed player is out of energy and can't cast right away will be gone if he became mana gated. They go away because with something like fh he not only gets cdr, but also more continuous casts in a small amount of time. Mana gating would hurt zed's ability to poke with shuriken but would increase his ability to spam spells in team fights and ensure he was almost never out of energy to cast a shadow if it was off cool down. In bronze and silver it might not matter as much because people in those elo brackets can't play zed well, but any good zed does NOT need more mobility.
ChargeItDownMid1 votes[deleted]
T RexHasLongLegs1 votesMaybe he can't keep up with his cd when played perfect in which case I definitely think nerfs would be in order, but I still think changing the energy costs would work better than mana.
It throws back to the issues in his design though. Like I was trying to say, zed is a high elo issue bc riot won't just ban him below plat elo. His kit makes him so much stronger in a good players hand than a weak player's hand that to balance him for high elo would make him pre rework eve level for bronze and silver and riot won't do that so zed stays an issue.
City of Toronto9 votesHe can build frozen heart now and get every benefit that he would get if he were to get mana. His kit right now is essentially resource-less so he won't be any less resource-gated if he had mana and built frozen heart.
No, he most definitely is not resource-less...
Why is it people fail to recognize that energy gating exists?
Energy prevails for extended laning phase because you essentially never run out unless you spam, but your energy pool is too low to sustain skill-spamming in teamfights.
Mana prevails for skirmishes, and teamfights because you have a large enough resource pool to last through the fight, but your regen is too low and thus sucks at extended laning.
ChargeItDownMid6 votes[deleted]
City of Toronto3 votesEnergy gating exists on champions like shen. Zed's energy costs are extremely low and he gains a significant portion of it back from his shadow.
Not like Shen gains 40 energy for each taunted enemy or anything.
thinking man3 votesNot like Shen gains 40 energy for each taunted enemy or anything.
Shen's energy is still pretty fucking terrible.
That being said, he's stupid for thinking Zed is resourceless.
City of Toronto2 votesShen's energy is still pretty fucking terrible.
That being said, he's stupid for thinking Zed is resourceless.
Oh yeah, believe me I know. I just wanted to kill one of his reasonings for Zed being resourceless ("he gains a significant portion back") by bringing up this point, because by his criteria Shen also does that.
Chaotic Reks6 votesyou ever try to land that thing?
City of Toronto2 votes[{quoted}](name=NyX Reks,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Eb0GNIR4,comment-id=0003000000000001000000000001,timestamp=2015-04-22T00:42:38.296+0000)
you ever try to land that thing?
I don't think it's nearly as bad as people make it out to be. I like Shen.
Chaotic Reks1 votesI love Shen as well, but the hit detection is a little wonky on it.
revliledpembroke2 votesYeah, and you need to hit three champions with it to refund its cost. Zed's works on minions and refunds significantly more. AND his energy costs decrease. At level 3, A full Shen combo costs 210 energy. This is the same throughout the game. A full Zed damage combo costs 165 energy at level three. At level six, Zed's is 155 but he gains access to an cost free damage amplification and teleportation ultimate. And once Zed reaches max level, his qwe combo costs 125. Shen can barely cast his e twice from full energy, while Zed gets to do his entire combo twice from full energy. You seem to be comparing apples and oranges here mate.
City of Toronto2 votesYeah, and you need to hit three champions with it to refund its cost. Zed's works on minions and refunds significantly more. AND his energy costs decrease. At level 3, A full Shen combo costs 210 energy. This is the same throughout the game. A full Zed damage combo costs 165 energy at level three. At level six, Zed's is 155 but he gains access to an cost free damage amplification and teleportation ultimate. And once Zed reaches max level, his qwe combo costs 125. Shen can barely cast his e twice from full energy, while Zed gets to do his entire combo twice from full energy. You seem to be comparing apples and oranges here mate.
Okay, it's cool that you wrote a little essay and all that, but most of what you're saying is irrelevant. Haaaaalp said that Zed gains energy if he hits his E, and all I said is that Shen gains energy if he hits his E as well. I don't recall making any claims past that, so I honestly have no idea what you're trying to prove here. I ain't comparing shit, I just stated a simple fact.
revliledpembroke1 votesYou're right, you ain't comparing shit, as shit was never the focus of any point of your statement. However, when you make a comment saying something like "Well, X champion also has this" after a comment saying "Y champion has this" there is a comparison being made. It's like saying "Well, it's not like Caligula killed a few people" after someone else said "Nero was the worst Roman Emperor." Those comments together invite comparison. Others reading it will go "Oh, so Shen will regen just like Zed," when the point is that Zed doesn't need to regen to get a full combo in. Shen does. Zed has more ways to get his energy back than Shen does as well.
City of Toronto1 votesYou're right, you ain't comparing shit, as shit was never the focus of any point of your statement. However, when you make a comment saying something like "Well, X champion also has this" after a comment saying "Y champion has this" there is a comparison being made. It's like saying "Well, it's not like Caligula killed a few people" after someone else said "Nero was the worst Roman Emperor." Those comments together invite comparison. Others reading it will go "Oh, so Shen will regen just like Zed," when the point is that Zed doesn't need to regen to get a full combo in. Shen does. Zed has more ways to get his energy back than Shen does as well.
What the fuck are you even rambling on about? You're trying way too hard to attack me, and frankly it ain't working out for you. Haaalp said Shen has energy issues, then says Zed gets energy regen from skills, but doesn't say anything about Shen's energy regen from skills. So, I say that Shen gets energy regen from skills as well in response. That's. All. I didn't make any statements or claims past that, I just stated a simple fact, so I don't know what the fuck kind of point you're trying to make besides intentionally being an asshole and visibly trying too hard to do so. You're trying so hard to put words in my mouth it's almost comical.
Reading your two comments literally gave me the same impression as those toxic players in game that go out of their way to try to embarrass someone and make them look bad, like someone could type "lol" after a funny play and all you do is spam allchat with "HAHA U MAD SON? UR SO OBVIOUSLY MAD LMAO, SO SALT"
revliledpembroke1 votesWut? No, I was trying to reaffirm my initial point, Zed regens a lot easier than Shen, so saying Shen has regen does not tell the whole story. So I did that. Then you said everything I said in my intial point was irrelevant. So I pointed out how I thought it was relevant. And I have never spelled "your" "ur" in my life. Grant me at least that little respect. And the only things I describe as salty are chips.
City of Toronto1 votesMy apologies then. What I will say is that your first sentence can be really easily misunderstood "You're right, you ain't comparing shit, as shit was never the focus of any point of your statement."
I thought you were trying to attack me based on that sentence, but it appears that I've misunderstood. I'll hold that to being extremely tired and irritable at that time, while trying to reason with several other people consistently attacking me in another thread.
revliledpembroke1 votesOh, that was me being irritable and snarky. Completely unrelated to anything else.
TheLuminosity1 votesThat's exactly why he has the highest energy cost in the game, well played.
City of Toronto3 votesOP is pretty damn correct actually. Energy gating is a real thing, people. I'd rather have Zed have an easier time in lane than have him bounce around with no energy limitations in teamfights later on.
Think of URF. Zed is oppressive as all fuck on that game mode, not only because 80% cdr was the thing but because he actually couldn't run out of resources mid teamfight, meaning he could spam all his skills on CD.
Apply this to a Zed with mana in a regular game. 40% cdr (FH, lucidity, 5% mastery or whatever combination you want) and a large enough mana pool to go through an entire teamfight without running out of mana thanks to FH. As far as skirmishes/teamfights/objective control goes, this Zed is only 40% cdr below his URF counterpart.
What item build are you refering to and how would this item build be better if he had mana compared to if he had energy? There are only 2 items which are stronger on mana champions and those are the archangel staff and manamune. All other mana items are just as strong on manaless champions as they are on mana champions.
A FH could potentially make him a pretty overwhelming bruiser.
Cucklord Supreme1 votesMight as well make him ap also.
SouL1ess1 votesAfter looking at the responses:
We should really differentiate Energy as a resource from being resourceless...
Zed isn't going to always hit mimicked spells and it's actually your burden (as terrible as it is) to prevent him from landing mimicked spells.
And a Zed without mimicked spell hits runs out of energy just as fast as Shen does.
TenSlashTen1 votesSo just another kassasdin? shrug* I hate both champions. the only way to balance them without a complete change of abilities is removal to me honestly. Just a complete kit removal and rework.
Just far too hard to balance gap closer ults that have damage on them. Its either too good or worthless. theres no happy medium in "Mobility Creep: The Game"...
thinking man1 votesSo just another kassasdin? shrug* I hate both champions. the only way to balance them without a complete change of abilities is removal to me honestly. Just a complete kit removal and rework.
Just far too hard to balance gap closer ults that have damage on them. Its either too good or worthless. theres no happy medium in "Mobility Creep: The Game"...
I don't think any champion has a mana pool that fluctuates as hard as Kassadin.
I don't really play him much anymore since I've been playing a lot of Civ 5 recently and don't want to just pick him blindly, but even when I went full AP, my mana pool would still shoot up and down with how his W/R interact.
Kingsgrave1 votesJust like with Riven, Muramana + Trinity would be far too scary on them if they were to use Mana.
