Riot, what is supposed to be the tanks response to ADC item changes??

DeusVult··35 votes·14,852 views

So there are a bunch of changes to marksmen up on PBE right now, most notably the changes surrounding crit itemization. IE will now have no crit, but will double crit chance and cause crits to covert 20% of their damage as true damage. Bonus armor penetration is gone, and Last Whisper along with its upgrades return to total armor pen, making them good against all targets. In addition to this, numerous other items in the AD/crit builds have changes ranging from major to minor.

Riot, my question to your balance team is this: How are tanks supposed to respond to new ADC itemization?

If an ADC goes item 3031 item 3087 item 3094 item 3036 item 3153 than how are tanks supposed to deal with the damage coming from them? With IE double zeal item, the ADC will crit every attack and deal 20% of that damage as true damage. Unavoidable true damage. Add in the Lord Doms, and the remaining damage will ignore 35% of the tanks armor. Throw in BoRK for good measure because it is getting a 200gold buff in the patch (3400g->3200g) and the tank can't even just stack health to try an mitigate a carries damage. Against most meta ADC builds come 8.10, tanks will not have any viable item choices to survive a teamfight.

How will randuins omen be changed to allow tanks/bruisers to deal with crit damage?? That is its niche, but just making crits true damage ruins the counterplay that randuins provides.

Also Riot, instead of all these straight buffs to ADCs, why not give them different power points to play around like other classes have to play around. For instance, take more direct crit chance from zeal items and instead attach it to mechanics like the one on the removed item Zeke's Harbinger, where remaining in combat will give you a limited window of increased crit chance. This would limit how reliable the ADCs damage is. They don't have to play around CDs or small windows of power like other classes, especially as the game goes on, as 90% of their damage is in their auto attack, which is unavoidable. Other classes like mages and assassins generally have to play around their CDs and deal reduced damage when their combos are down. Tanks have to play around their combos and tank itemization gives them windows when they can make really strong plays, and then they have to play more safe when those windows of power are down. ( item 3193 item 3190 item 3143 item 3800 item 3053 )

All in all Riot, looking at the changes on PBE I don't see how these will reduce teams dependence on having an ADC and instead open up a whole new can of worms by making the ADC's damage largely unavoidable.

95 Comments

EndlessSorcerer21 votes

"Blarg" *dies*

FurriesAreHot2 votes

I never knew needed "Blarg" in my life until I saw this post.

DuskDaUmbreon18 votes

What is it? Doing their job and beating assassins and mages.

Just like it's Mages's and Assassins's jobs to beat the ADCs.

Just like it's ADC's job to beat tanks.

Romans VI XXIII19 votes

ADCs should beat tanks yes, but they shouldn't beat them in 2 seconds.....

D357R0Y3R14 votes

yea? then why are every single mother fucking tanks tanking for 15 sec straight at the MSI?

RocketRelm5 votes

Could you provide an example/some examples?

It's not that I don't strictly believe you, it's that I (like most people), couldn't care less about the tourney scene and haven't paid a lick of attention to it.

D357R0Y3R1 votes

looked at the first MSI game i found

https://youtu.be/p_gnOgFY2B0?t=240

oh wow, trundle and ornn are for sure dying in 2 seconds

Kilanost1 votes

{quoted}

looked at the first MSI game i found

https://youtu.be/p_gnOgFY2B0?t=240

oh wow, trundle and ornn are for sure dying in 2 seconds

If you watch the video fully you see the ornn losing 70% of his health with 5 autos and 1 ability from xayah.

The fact that people survive in team fights in pro plau has more to do with zoning and positioning than it does inherent tankiness.

D357R0Y3R1 votes

{quoted}

If you watch the video fully you see the ornn losing 70% of his health with 5 autos and 1 ability from xayah.

No i see ornn taking damage from drake+karma Q+xayah and still ending up ~~45% hp despite xayah focusing him for 5 sec

TayrooNyght1 votes

Good to know they played all the MSI games on the new patch with all the True Damage that is the origin of this debate. Your argument is totally valid.

DeusVult6 votes

because most games are over at the LCS/MSI level before the ADCs pick up a LW item for armor pen. In the game I watched this morning, Pentagram beat Direwolves ( https://www.lolesports.com/en_US/msi/msi_2018/matches/play_in_group_b/PGM-vs-DW ) and Pentagrams ADC Yutori Moyasi went IE + double zeal into BT as caitlyn. His last item was building towards a GA as well. They won the game because Caitlyn could easily kill everyone that wasnt the 300 armor 4K+ health shen on direwolves. Caitlyn 3 shots the enemy jhin in the fountain at the end of the game and then deals less than 100 damage on the next auto vs shen.

So why do you see tanks effectively tanking on the pro level in most games for 10-15 seconds?? Because the carries aren't worried about the tank, they have the positioning skills and peel to not have to worry about them. They just want the raw damage to be able to kill the enemies carry in the fewest amount of hits to win the game.

If the changes on PBE go through, the pro scene will adapt and you will see a lot more front-to-back comps with hyperscaling ADCs who have the range to kite safely and then re-engage. Caitlyn Jinx Tristana

TayrooNyght1 votes

I agree with your general statement, but I think it'll take more love than this to bring Jinx back. She's too scattered and basic (meaning kit) compared to other champs today. All her abilities still have 1-sentence descriptions and do 1 thing each, where nearly every other champ has 4 or 5 functions per ability, it seems like. She has no real potential to outplay anyone, and no real way to stop other champs from outplaying her.

realDRdeal1 votes

While I agree with you that tanks do not die in 2 seconds, the ADC item changes on PBE (note: not live servers, let alone MSI patch) will help ADCs chew threw tanks faster. I think this is good.

However, using MSI as an example of tanks living a long time is irrelevant to the current discussion since this thread is about the upcoming ADC item changes

BestPudgeNA2 votes

{quoted}

What is it? Doing their job and beating assassins and mages.

Just like it's Mages's and Assassins's jobs to beat the ADCs.

Just like it's ADC's job to beat tanks.

What about Tanks that are supposed to faceroll ADC but are kinda weak vs mages Rammus. Don't you not think 20% damage kinda fucks him?

ModWulf Helhammer7 votes

No tank is supposed to be weak to mages. It’s what happens when you have more health than a mage can burst for.

BestPudgeNA2 votes

[{quoted}](name= Król Wilk Sam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EapfFXiG,comment-id=000500010000,timestamp=2018-05-07T00:45:06.179+0000)

No tank is supposed to be weak to mages. It’s what happens when you have more health than a mage can burst for.

Not even close to true. Rammus is super weak to a lot of mages like Taliyah, Cass, Ryze ect. Why do you insist on speaking about things you have no first hand knowledge of endlessly on these boards?

ModWulf Helhammer7 votes

Ah yes, the few dps aps that apparently make up the entirety of the mage class, and not, you know the 4 of them their are.

Why do you insist on making things up or twisting the truth to suit your needs?

BestPudgeNA2 votes

[{quoted}](name= Król Wilk Sam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EapfFXiG,comment-id=00050001000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-07T01:19:48.905+0000)

Ah yes, the few dps aps that apparently make up the entirety of the mage class, and not, you know the 4 of them their are.

Why do you insist on making things up or twisting the truth to suit your needs?

Anivia Brand Azir AurelionSol Cassiopeia Fiddlesticks Malzahar Taliyah Ryze Swain Velkoz Xerath are all very capable of soloing Rammus quickly and if you're behind most burst mages can chop him down pretty quickly.

I was specifically talking about Rammus not tanks in general. How is bringing up what mages kill him twisting the truth.

ModWulf Helhammer5 votes

Let's break down your list:

DPS mages: Azir Cassiopeia Ryze and sorta Taliyah AurelionSol

Other types: Anivia Brand Fiddlesticks Malzahar Swain Velkoz Xerath

Not going to cover the DPS types because I believe it should already be established that they are the mages that are supposed to be able to DPS tanks down.

Anivia Yeah, maybe you die to her if you decided to stay in her ult until your health bar disappears. Being as I would think most players would know not to do that, she's out of your list.

Brand I'll give you this one. Brand's high AoE and ticking passive making him able to kill most about anything.

Fiddlesticks Same as Anivia. If you decided to stick around in his ult or let him stand still and drain you, you're gonna die. But again, I would hope most players know better than that. Off the list.

Malzahar Tricky. When he's strong, I would likely side with you on him. But for currently, most of the damage is going to come from him suppression and letting his team wail on you.

Swain Another maybe. Currently he may still be a bit overtuned, but I can't say for certain, so I can't say for certain whether tank busting comes from too much power, or just his innate kit being good at it.

Velkoz Unique case as he's a normal burst mage built to take down tanks, due to his true damage.

Xerath I'm sorry what? Are you serious? Xerath is good at killing tanks? Do you just stand still when you play Rammus or something? Yeah, totally, a poke mage built for squishy bursting is good at tank killing. Obviously, how did I miss that. Off the list.

So of your regular mages, you have 2 absolutes, and 2 maybes. Hardly makes up a lot. And this line:

and if you're behind most burst mages can chop him down pretty quickly

Yeah that doesn't matter at all. You should never consider a champion being able to kill you when you're behind as indicative of anything.

I was specifically talking about Rammus not tanks in general. How is bringing up what mages kill him twisting the truth.

Because tanks in general are not made to be weak to mages in general. None of them are, including ones specializing in AD resistance. And it's twisting the truth when you name DPS style APs, the small group that is designed to be able to deal meaningful damage to tanks, as an argument for mages being good against tanks.

BestPudgeNA1 votes

[{quoted}](name= Król Wilk Sam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EapfFXiG,comment-id=0005000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-07T02:55:22.347+0000)

Let's break down your list: Fiddlesticks Same as Anivia. If you decided to stick around in his ult or let him stand still and drain you, you're gonna die. But again, I would hope most players know better than that. Off the list.

Nobody can take you seriously when you say things like this. Fiddle is literally the highest WR JG mu against Rammus in the highest ELO. Rammus can't run or beat Fid head on and he teamfights worse.

TS Media3 votes

No shit, sherlock. That's like saying Yi can't beat fiddle head on. You know why Fiddle probably has a high winrate against rammus? Because he looks at him with that scare crow stare, goes pick-a-boo and rammus runs away cuz he got scared as hell.

Kind of... I don't know, the OPPOSITE of what he wants to do?

BestPudgeNA2 votes

[{quoted}](name=TS Media,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EapfFXiG,comment-id=000500010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-07T14:15:52.816+0000)

No shit, sherlock. That's like saying Yi can't beat fiddle head on. You know why Fiddle probably has a high winrate against rammus? Because he looks at him with that scare crow stare, goes pick-a-boo and rammus runs away cuz he got scared as hell.

Kind of... I don't know, the OPPOSITE of what he wants to do?

So you're agreeing with me that Rammus is weak to Fiddle not strong against him? The guy i'm responding to is saying Rammus is super strong against mages because he is a tank. For reference Fiddle is also really good at invading Rammus at a buff once he gets ulti. You Just R over the wall E+Q+W Rammus E will bounce between him in the buff and Rammus has no escape from this and it will 100-0 rammus from about level 6 to rammus gets about 4 items.

It doesn't seem to matter to him that Rammus needs to build Thornmail/Cinderhulk first so. Champs like Xerath have double flat pen and ludens vs a 0 MR item target with a 250+ HP "tank item" and a 500+ tank item. It doesn't matter that Rammus can't actually engage on Xerath if he holds his E. It doesn't matter that if Rammus is foolish enough to go in Xerath can E+QW and can follow up with Ignite and ulti to Kill Rammus. According to him Rammus is still super strong against him. Doesn't matter that Rammus can't afford to by MR till 3rd item and by the point the same Xerath has double flat pen, void. No Rammus is strong vs Xerath then too. Not being able to close the gap or frontline vs his damage is A OK because you know he is a tank that can't engage or block R W Q, yet he is supposedly still really strong against him because he is a TANK. Doesn't matter that if Rammus has no wave clear, sustain or spamable shield so if he needs to cover mid lane tower vs Xerath he gets brutalized nope, Rammus is a tank so he is strong here too!

ModWulf Helhammer15 votes

How will randuins omen be changed to allow tanks/bruisers to deal with crit damage?? That is its niche, but just making crits true damage ruins the counterplay that randuins provides.

One plan they are testing is to have the damage reduction apply before true damage conversion.

Also Riot, instead of all these straight buffs to ADCs

They aren't. Unless you consider higher cost items, losing a decent chunk of base armor, and reduced health regen a "buff"

PB4UAME23 votes

Losing 4 armor for 80-100 hp at level 1 and increased hp scaling per level, for -2hp per 5 is not a fucking nerf ffs.

Oh no, IE costs 100-200 more gold, but doubles my crit chance now and gives 10 more AD, such a nerf!

Have you even done basic math on the changes? their EHP is increased, not decreased, and they will do more damage to every single champion in the game come three items, as the break even point is 62.5 armor, of which every champion has as base stats by level 12 (aka still early or at best early-mid game) except Thresh who needs a paltry 30 armor, or ~40 souls.

ADC items are STILL GOING TO BE FUCKING CHEAPER THAN JUGGERNAUT, ASSASSIN, TANK, MAGE, and even some SUPPORT BUILDS FOR FUCK'S SAKE. they should have, bar-abso-fucking-lutely-none the SINGLE MOST EXPENSIVE BUILD FOR THE SHEER POWER AND MULTIPLICATIVE VALUE IT PROVIDES THEM OVER THE ITEMIZATION OF LITERALLY EVERY OTHER CLASS AND ROLE

But no, their core being buffed and still costing 1,000 gold less than the juggernaut/diver/bruiser core is totally fine. /s

D357R0Y3R6 votes

{quoted}

for 80-100 hp at level 1

N o

ModWulf Helhammer7 votes

Core marksman build cost on PBE: IE + Shiv + RFC + Greaves = 10,400g (not counting the LW item or lifesteal they're most likely going to need too)

Core buiser build cost: BC/TF + Sterak's + Dead Man's + tabi/merc treads: 10,200/17,533g (Trinity Force)

So for a Black Cleaver build, it's actually less, but the TF build is more expensive due to the stats that that item gives, as well as its easy build path.

Just for funsies, let's do mages and tanks too:

Core Mage build: Archangels + Void Staff + Morello + Sorc Shoes = 9950g

Core tank build: Spirit Visage + Warmog's + Randuin's + Tabi/Merc treads = 9650g


The most HP any ADC gained was 17. So that's a delta of 63 at the least from your false claim.

RocketRelm2 votes

I don't see any ADC realistically completing their second zeal item, at least once they adapt. Once they build the second Zeal, they cap at 100% crit. Afterwords they're functionally spending 1500 gold to complete RFC to get... 15% AS and the RFC passive. Not a great deal. Double Zeal was largely an artifact of RFC and Statik combining super well, plus zeal's super efficiency. The former's gone and the latter's going away now too.

I expect the "core adc build" is going to be more like IE+Shiv+Zeal+Zerk = 8900g

Which gives up 15% AS, 50% Crit Damage, and the RFC passive. And gets 10 AD, 20% Crit Chance, 20% Conversion to True on Crit, and is 800 gold cheaper than Live IE+Shiv+RFC+Zerk.

If anything, the ADC core build got cheaper. It's just far clunkier and somewhat weaker for the first ~7000 gold.

ModWulf Helhammer8 votes

Yes, totally makes sense that ADCs are just going to build half an item. If we’re doing that, should we also then count the bruisers that start functioning with just BC/TF and a tiamat?

I was being generous by counting up to 4 items on each class, when all but ADCs become fully capable at 1.5-2 items. With ADCs currently, they become slightly effective at that count, and the PBE changes barely take them to that mark while being more expensive.

Disembark14 votes

So now we’re just straight up lying? “Cost increased by 100-200 gold” when it was increased by 300 gold, and zeal increased by 200 gold.

“Breaks even at 62.5 armour” when it was disproved on a thread just two days ago and it breaks even at 125 armour.

Also ignoring nerf to fleet footwork, and making IE have a shittier build path.

You either didn’t even bother reading the changes or you are straight lying to perpetuate circlejerk.

DeusVult7 votes

IE was increased in price by 300g, and while you physically cannot build it first on anyone tryndamere (btw, wtf Riot) you come out ahead in the long run because if ADCs continue to go IE+double zeal they will get an additional 10 AD and 20% crit chance (old IE+ double zeal items was 80% crit chance, new IE +DZ = 120% )

IE + Double Zeal now costs an additional 700g, but now gives 10 addtional AD and 20% more crit chance. In terms of gold efficiency, 1 AD costs 35 gold. 1% crit chance costs 40 gold. So IE + Double zeal went up 700 gold in terms of cost, but gets 750 gold more in stats. So IE + double zeal just became MORE GOLD EFFICIENT, in addition to the bonus that you can now easily get 100% crit chance every game meaning that RNG is out the fucking window. Once that 3 item spike comes in (actually IE + zeal + upgraded zeal item, so the spike is really at 2 1/2 items) ADCs will crit every attack. And deal 20% true damage on all their attacks.

Yes, it is 125 armor, but that doesnt include if the ADC decides to them get a LW item. At which point it goes further down.

FF nerf was deserved as it was giving more MS than phase rush until the Phase rush champ reached level 11. Because phase rush is shit and Riot refuses to acknowledge this.

Disembark4 votes

Every stat that’s been posted shows that IE, EVEN WITH the new passive, 100% crit, and 10AD does LESS DPS was than current IE and double zeal.

What people complain about is that it “isn’t enough” (at 100 armour it’s doing 244% instead of 250%, COMPARING DPS, if we were to instead compare 1-shot damage it’s 220% vs 250%). All the while, the cost has been increased.

There is no way in the world to look at it in any way besides a nerf. In terms of damage (to squishies), build path, and cost. The only real complaints are that it’s not enough, but to say it’s a buff is simply being willingly ignorant.

New LW does not “syngerize” with new IE, in fact the opposite. Buying new LW doesn’t make the IEs true damage any more impactful.

HàrrowR6 votes

Except your math is bullshit and youre straight up lying about some numbers not to mention an adc with one item is shit,two item adc still isnt strong compared to a two item bruiser,tank,assassin,only after 3 items do you start feeling strong

Thilmer3 votes

{quoted}

Losing 4 armor for 80-100 hp at level 1 and increased hp scaling per level, for -2hp per 5 is not a fucking nerf ffs.

Oh no, IE costs 100-200 more gold, but doubles my crit chance now and gives 10 more AD, such a nerf!

I have the feeling that Riot is directly lying at us, trying to conivnce us that those changes are nerfs, when the reality is that ADCs will still be completely overpowered after this nerfs.

Man, I wish I could enjoy playing ADCs instead of mages; then I could main champions that are inmune to nerfs instead of champions that get nerfs even when they are not powerful.

iTaLenTZ2 votes

[{quoted}](name= Król Wilk Sam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EapfFXiG,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-05-06T16:17:26.054+0000)

One plan they are testing is to have the damage reduction apply before true damage conversion.

They aren't. Unless you consider higher cost items, losing a decent chunk of base armor, and reduced health regen a "buff"

Nice deceive. You name the only 3 things that got worse for adc's but all the compensation buffs exceed the nerfs disproportionally to a point the people with common sense know the patch is a general buff to ad champs.

ModWulf Helhammer5 votes

Yep, those were the only things nerfed. These things don't exist at all on the PBE:

  • less AD from last whisper items, while they cost more

  • IE is entirely useles as a first item

  • nerfs to the only good keystone option for ADCs (few ADCs have the ability to take PTA as they can’t reliably use it early to mid game, and LT takes too long to activate to be of any use), meaning they can get killed by the Brand, Bard, Alistar, and even Janna supports all the easier.

What'd we get in exchange?

  • Some more damage against tanks
  • Reduced cost on some lifesteal items
  • some base HP and HP per level
  • a new item that's mostly going to be used by assassins to one shot ADCs even more and easier.

So do all those buffs equal out and supersede the apparently "minor" nerfs?

Bonipherus4 votes

about the ie as first item... just buy bf sword first then zeal item. that was what everyone was doing last year too.

Meep Man14 votes

Not to say that Tanks are supposed to be shredded by Marksman... but they are. Marksman are the one class that, fundamentally, are supposed to counter Tanks. Tanks are supposed to HEAVILY survive most other classes (except maybe Melee Carries that build Marksman-like items plus some defense and specific anti-tank Mages), but fall to Marksman due to their potentially unlimited damage due to their strong AAs.

Tanks have some items to help, like item 3143 item 3110 item 3075 , but they are supposed to be inherently weak to ADCs compared to most classes.

LightIsMyPath21 votes

But tanks aren't supposed to be weak vs ADC because they take more damage from them in the same limited time frame compared to other classes (unless it's a specific pick like vayne). They are supposed to be killed by ADC because while all the other classes have to cry for cooldowns past that time frame the ADC will keep attacking, eventually killing the tank...

Meep Man1 votes

I have a PBE account and the only ADC that can burst a Tank from what I've seen is Jhin and Graves and sometimes Draven . Otherwise, it's still a pretty slow death, albeit it does eventually come if the ADC doesn't die first.

HàrrowR11 votes
  1. You literally posted 3 worst tank killers,what about KogMaw Vayne Varus Tristana
FixHealsRemoveGW1 votes

Varus and Kog Maw ar not even going for crit builds. Vayne will always be good agains tanks as long as she builds attack speed. Tristana has nothing in her kit that would justify calling her a "tank killer".

TayrooNyght1 votes

They will now since they can stack IE & Conqueror for 40% True Damage. Even if Conqueror doesn't refresh for ranged, that's still several seconds of 40% True Damage at insanely high attack speeds. If the ADC is ever allowed to plant his feet and AA, it's basically GG. It won't matter if you're Tank or Mage.

FixHealsRemoveGW1 votes

{quoted}

They will now since they can stack IE & Conqueror for 40% True Damage. Even if Conqueror doesn't refresh for ranged, that's still several seconds of 40% True Damage at insanely high attack speeds. If the ADC is ever allowed to plant his feet and AA, it's basically GG. It won't matter if you're Tank or Mage.

Nice bronze level game knowledge.

TayrooNyght1 votes

There was nothing Bronze Level about my comment. At the time I posted, the combination of IE and Conqueror was too good for any AA-based champ to pass up. Maybe that's why they nerfed new IE before releasing live? And are still continuing to make balance changes? 40% TD meant it wouldn't matter if the opponent built built armor or not, so it wouldn't matter who you attacked. And you seem to be ignoring the all-important "If the ADC is ever allowed to plant his feet & AA", but nice attempt to sound like you're intelligent.

FixHealsRemoveGW1 votes

{quoted}

There was nothing Bronze Level about my comment. At the time I posted, the combination of IE and Conqueror was too good for any AA-based champ to pass up.

So good that literally no ADC in their right mind and with a somewhat decent rank ever used it seriously. Idk what to tell you. You seems to confuse damage conversion with bonus damage and I am not even sure if we are playing the same game or maybe you live in your own world with your own meta.

OP Garen Support9 votes

Answer is simple dont play anything that is not full AD.

AirKingNeo4 votes

Given that tanks are already overpowered, this is supposed to make Marksmen specific to tank killing.

Now if only Conqueror didn't suck.

SEKAI21 votes

{quoted}

Given that tanks are already overpowered, this is supposed to make Marksmen specific to tank killing.

Now if only Conqueror didn't suck.

  1. Tanks, as a whole, are not overpowered.
  2. Marksmen being made for tank killing, at least in the way it's implemented, makes absolutely 0 sense. Marksmen were originally seen as a pick for tank killing because they're DPSers who sport right click damage (fast and at 0 cost), which makes it a good matchup against beefy tanks as it's the damage type with the highest reliability against them; NOT because they somehow just have this arbitrary halo of "tank killer" on their head, nor is remotely sane by having them being so specific about killing tanks they actually now just burst tanks down like wtf.

I mean, if all tank does is get burst down, then wtf are they?

These days, it would seem League has gone so far off its own warped logic, a lot of things straight up make absolutely no sense anymore (starting with tank being actually tanky is somehow a bad thing in LoL, that assassins that actually assassinate is seen as a bad thing, that carries somehow need to also have the best early game and the cheapest but highest scaling items, and other utter nonsense like this).

Morticianjohn4 votes

When tryndamere becomes the best tank in the game. Guaranteed 5 seconds of survival

More from Gameplay

More by DeusVult