GAREN'S GETTING TENACITY BACK

Big Lincoln·Jun 29, 2017·55 votes·5,725 views

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-p7m-5YWttO8/WVVXV_k_91I/AAAAAAAAoT4/KFquxhVrvE4pCcozfsRRS1B45aIn1HjdgCEwYBhgL/s1600/garenw.png

yyyyyyyYYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAS

157 Comments

Malicious MetalJun 29, 201740 votes

Good. If there's a class that should have inbuilt tenacity in their kit it's Juggernauts.

Critmaster GarenJun 29, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EahqNmOE,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-06-29T20:34:21.646+0000)

Good. If there's a class that should have inbuilt tenacity in their kit it's Juggernauts.

i mean. a lot of other juggernauts have abilities that reach outside of their auto attack range.

Mordekaiser has his w, r, and e that have a bit of reach to it DrMundo his q Illaoi her entire tentacle mechanic and e Yorick his w, e and by extension his ghouls Nasus his w and e

i guess Volibear and Udyr are the only other two currently except garen who are almost entirely restricted to auto attack range (unless you want to count volis r and udyrs pheonix stance which i wouldnt)

i understand the concern, but he really needs some way to be able to outplay an opponent and get a little depth to his kit.

otherwise what would you have changed?

Big LincolnJun 29, 20179 votes

give Udyr slow immunity on his E hehe xd

Hello I am BirdJun 29, 20177 votes

die.

Over InnsmouthJun 30, 20175 votes

That would be unbearable.

Big LincolnJun 30, 20174 votes

Volibear

ArakadiaJun 29, 201719 votes

Isn't CC supposed to be their weakness? Why should a class get something that by default covers their defining weakness.

Not to say Garen doesn't need this, but juggernauts having tenacity seems odd.

Critmaster GarenJun 29, 20176 votes

{quoted}

Isn't CC supposed to be their weakness? Why should a class get something that by default covers their defining weakness.

Not to say Garen doesn't need this, but juggernauts having tenacity seems odd.

generally yes, but this is done in a way where it makes a lot of sense.

its a short windowed ability that both he and his opponent can play around. basically a down scaled version of Fiora w without the cc and invlulnerability attached, but with damage reduction past the initial effect in return.

this is going to allow garen to outplay single burst/cc abilities with proper reaction time, but as a whole its not going to make him immune to kiting and crowd control.

you might actually be able to do shit like intercept an Ashe arrow or react better to Renekton trades for example.

NiceTryViJun 29, 201727 votes

Range is their weakness. They cant do crap if they aren't on top of you except eat damage, and many of them, while having some mobility, only have it for a short time or a small distance.

ArakadiaJun 30, 20175 votes

Dar Q, Illao kit, Morde ghosts, dragon, E, and to an extent W, Nasus E and W, Mundo Q, Olaf Q. Their defining weakness is kitability not range. If their lack of range, which they don't always have, was their defining weakness, they would be like every other melee.

Sp33d Zer0Jun 30, 20174 votes

I would hardly state that kiting is a big deal against olaf.

ArakadiaJun 30, 20177 votes

Without his ult, which is the outlier that makes him diver like, he is most definetly kitable.

Over InnsmouthJun 30, 201711 votes

Debatable, considering how nasty Axe-Throw chaining can be.

ArakadiaJun 30, 20173 votes

Your not wrong. Olaf is just no dashing assassin is what i mean.

AwesomeGuyDjJun 30, 20172 votes

Ghost while he perma slows you with axes says high. Rightoues glory while he perma slows you says high. Bork slow once he reaches you says high.

Just Blame JennyJun 30, 20173 votes

And then the enemy support buys item 3069 and makes him cry. :)

NiceTryViJun 30, 20172 votes

Their defining weakness is kitability

I'm sorry, is that not exactly what I said. They have to be on top of you, therefore their lack of range and mobility, also known as kitability, is their weakness.

ArakadiaJun 30, 20172 votes

"Their defining weakness is kitability" is not exactly "range is their weakness". For one thing, the words and phrasing is different.

The second thing is that low range and low kitability are VERY different.

A Kha'Zix HAS to be ontop of you. But it's not hard for him to get ontop of you. A Darius also has to get ontop of you, but it's Much's more difficult.

You never mentioned mobility or kitability. So no that isn't what you said. If it were "exactly what you said" than the wording and meaning would be the same. But it's not.

I accept your apology.

NiceTryViJun 30, 20172 votes

First off, it was not even close to an apology, but I see you've shown your true colors as an ass by trying to presume one.

A Kha'Zix HAS to be ontop of you. But it's not hard for him to get ontop of you. A Darius also has to get ontop of you, but it's Much's more difficult.

And funny thing is, Kha is an assassin, not a juggernaut. So that's not even an argument.

You never mentioned mobility or kitability.

Having a weakness to ranged literally means you are easily kited, otherwise you wouldn't be weak to them.

DeathBurstJun 30, 20173 votes

And funny thing is, Kha is an assassin, not a juggernaut. So that's not even an argument.

That was an argument, and a good one at that, to prove that range and kiteability are two different things and not "exactly the same thing". Darius and Kha both have the same range (or you could even say that Darius has more range with his spin and grab), but Darius is much more kiteable than Kha.

NiceTryViJun 30, 20172 votes

Uh, no, no it wasn't. Because, while Kha is melee, he is neither kited, nor does he have any lack of gapcloser. Therefore, he is not weak to range. As is clearly evident by the fact that he specifically preys on most ranged champions. Maybe you should think about your arguments a bit more before supporting someone's inherently flawed one.

DeathBurstJun 30, 20173 votes

Maybe you should learn to actually understand English (or maybe just logic) before downvoting people.

Darius and Kha have the same range: melee.
Darius and Kha do NOT have the same kiteability: Darius is weak to kiting, Kha is not.
Conclusion: range and kiteability are NOT the same thing.

... contrary to what you said in that comment. That's what Arakadia answered to, he explained that no, it's not the same thing, and no, it's not "exactly what you said".

NiceTryViJun 30, 20172 votes

Except, hold on I DIDN'T SAY RANGE AND KITABILITY ARE THE SAME, IN FACT I SAID THE OPPOSITE. CAN YOU FUCKING READ AT ALL. They are both melee, yes, however we were talking about JUGGERNAUT'S WEAKNESS TO RANGE BECAUSE THEY ARE KITABLE AND DO NOT HAVE RANGE THEMSELVES. THEREFORE, JUGGERNAUTS CANNOT KITE (LACK KITABILITY) AND ARE WEAK TO RANGE. KHA HAS MOBILITY OUT THE ASS AND IS THEREFORE NOT KITABLE, AND IS NOT WEAK TO RANGE. DO YOU UNDERSTAND.

DeathBurstJul 1, 20171 votes

Your comment that I linked to (and that I'll put again here: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/EahqNmOE-garens-getting-tenacity-back?comment=00030002000100000002 ) DID say exactly that. There is no other way to interpret what you wrote in that comment other than: "Kiteability and lack of range are the same thing."

But they are not, because some melee champions are not kiteable. You can have lack of range but NOT kiteability at the same time, they are two totally different things.

NiceTryViJul 1, 20171 votes

I'm sorry, you must be stupider than I thought. To compensate, I will type this section slower. THE ABILITY TO KITE AND RANGE ARE THE SAME THING. THEREFORE, LACK OF RANGE MEANS YOU CANT KITE, AND ARE THEREFORE KITED.

because some melee champions are not kiteable.

Juggernauts are not, however, on that list. That list consists of assassins. I swear to god, do you just warp the argument when you start losing on purpose, or is it a defensive mechanism?

NiceTryViJul 1, 20171 votes

I didn't say melee, I said lack of range. If you are melee and have no gapcloser, you have no range. Are you so desperate to be right you don't even think about my argument at all and just throw words together at face value? I guess from now on my comments should be twice as long so that I cover every possible way to interpret my argument so that its impossible for you to misinterpret it?

ArakadiaJun 30, 20171 votes

"I'm sorry, isn't that exactly what I said" with italics to shove it harder is pretty fucking rude dude. Don't act arrogant if you hate when others do too.

How is that funny? My point is that a Juggernauts weakness is not that they HAVE TO be on top of you. Kha'Zix also HAS TO be on top of you. If a Juggernauts weakness was that they HAVE to be on top of you, than nearly every melee would be classified as Juggernaut.

You never mentioned mobility or kitability. You can't assume people know what your talking about. If you didn't say it, I can't know about it when reading your reply.

If you choose to ignore or not read my arguments and dismiss them as "not even arguments", we're not going to have much of a conversation.

NiceTryViJun 30, 20172 votes

Well here is the thing. When you try to make me out as a liar, when you are the one stealing my idea and calling me wrong at the same time, that is generally considered far ruder. Which only furthers my absolute amazement at you attempting to falsely extricate an apology from me, the one YOU wronged. And its funny because we were talking about juggernauts, not assassins. Melee assassins, while they have to be on top of you, have many ways to do it, while juggernauts do not. Therefore, you cannot compare the two and act like you have made a compelling argument. So don't come in here and act like you had some lightning strike of an idea that is somehow the same as mine(since you think I should be agreeing with you) but I am somehow also completely wrong.

Big LincolnJun 29, 20171 votes

it'd be a fair weakness if CC wasn't on nearly every single champion in the game, with low casts and low cooldowns

Critmaster GarenJun 29, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EahqNmOE,comment-id=000300020002,timestamp=2017-06-29T22:49:22.116+0000)

it'd be a fair weakness if CC wasn't on nearly every single champion in the game, with low casts and low cooldowns

the biggest problem to deal with for juggs is still item 3116

im just thankful the entire phase where it was built on every single ap scaling champ and you had to deal with 2 or 3 rylais on the enemy team every game is over.

that was not fun at all.

ArakadiaJun 30, 20171 votes

Well you act like juggernauts are a weak class by default because of CC, especially displacements and knock ups, being overused.

I still don't think giving them a mechanic with a sole purpose of removing or heavily dulling Juggs main weakness.

Big LincolnJun 30, 20174 votes

CC abundance is the biggest reason they struggle, besides items like item 3033 that fuck them up bad

ArakadiaJun 30, 20171 votes

I know.

This is how Juggernauts are supposed to be balanced.

Big LincolnJun 30, 20175 votes

it's why they're so easily pushed out of viability

macromiteJun 30, 20173 votes

No its not. Their weakness is mobility. they are slow and use slow damage types. champions that can avoid their damage output kick their shit in whenever both players utlize their champion correctly. every other form of weakness is added on to that.

ArakadiaJun 30, 20171 votes

I guess I worded myself badly.

Juggernauts are supposed to be balanced around how CC will effect them and more so how they have very little mobility.

I agree with you but you make it sound like the class of Juggernauts is weak.

macromiteJun 30, 20171 votes

A great majority of juggernauts are actually weak though. there are a few outliers that have found strength, but not most of them. Here is a list actually.

Weak Juggers: Garen Illaoi Mordekaiser Nasus Shyvana Trundle Udyr Volibear DrMundo

Strong Juggers: Yorick Darius

(these are based on popularity to winrate)

also juggernauts tend to ignore cc pretty well. This is because a lot of them have abilities that work through cc (such as garen's spin, trundle's ult, olaf's ult) and a lot of them also build pretty tanky, so they can absorb more damage while cc'd.

ArakadiaJun 30, 20171 votes

Illaoi isn't weak. I swear Morde was becoming viable, particularly in niche not lane match ups. Shyv wasn't weak if she is. Trundle is far from weak, just not strong.

Maybe they are statistically weak, but I can't access op.gg right now due to my location's connection to the internet.

Juggernauts HATE CC with a passion. It makes their tough job rougher. Trundles ult isn't going to kill that enemy ADC while he gets stun locked. A Garen E might but most Juggernauts are stopped heavily by CC.

Only Olaf can really ignore CC. Illaoi sort of has this too. But for the most part Juggernauts do terrible against CC.

macromiteJun 30, 20171 votes

Juggernauts HATE CC with a passion

They do better than any other class does.

Critmaster GarenJun 30, 20172 votes

{quoted}

They do better than any other class does.

which other classes?

assassins are just as shit as juggs. i wouldnt try to put one above the other, when they were both thrown in the garbage can.

half the tank roster is terrible, and 2 or 3 tanks are really strong. Zac Galio Malphite

divers are just as bad as juggs and assassins, but found a nieche as secondary supports with

item 3071 item 3748 item 3109 item 3193 builds. thy dont carry themselves and just play as armor shred and damage soak bots for their marksman.

really the only class that came out on top of the tank update were marksmen, and the enchanters that shield and heal them through fights.

Malicious MetalJun 30, 20174 votes

They're susceptible to being kited as they have limited range and not a lot of tools to stick to people. Also, it wouldn't be implemented like Irelia's horrible passive, just giving them stats for free.

I personally would love tenacity that would stack during combat, meaning they'd get tougher to keep at bay the longer they duke it out with their opponent.

ArakadiaJun 30, 20174 votes

They're susceptible to being kited as they have limited range and not a lot of tools to stick to people

I know, no need to repeat or argue over this.

Also, it wouldn't be implemented like Irelia's horrible passive, just giving them stats for free.

I agree. This would be mandatory.

I personally would love tenacity that would stack during combat, meaning they'd get tougher to keep at bay the longer they duke it out with their opponent.

This sounds interesting.

I don't understand how it couldn't be free stats generated over time though. It sounds like you get free tenacity for getting hit and that's it. There couldn't be any interaction to the mechanic because as a Juggernaut your either not going to be in range, thus your doing anything but walking up to them, or your going to be in range and not needing the tenacity much, if at all.

I think windows of Tenacity such as what their giving Garen are some of the healthier ways to implement such features.

Sorry, I think I was harsh. I do agree to an extent, but I'd stay away from giving Juggs tenacity unless they're a struggling exception.