Bot lane is literally a bullet hell shooter

coreym11·Jun 30, 2019·73 votes·18,967 views

I'm not gonna say that the state of this lane is as bad as top but this lane is truly in a bad state. Every single game people are picking mages throwing spells that chunk huge amounts of hp. Not only are you expected to farm, but you have to dodge mindless poking abilities that are actually hard to miss such as lux E, and snare which cost little to no mana. (Iv'e been playing lux support after going countless lanes against her). Vel koz and Xerath spam lasers across the lane, and brands massive aoe damage and stun abilities. Lets not forget the fiddle crow that he puts on the minions wave which hits everyone near the minions taking a huge chunck of hp and barely any mana costs.

These mages need to be nerfed as in increase thier mana costs because thats the reason they are going bot lane so easily, nerf their damage, or the 3rd option which I like the most buff traditional supports that don't poke but provide hard cc or sheild like alistar, Leona, Thresh, blitzcrank, and janna etc so that the lane is not in a constant bullet hell where one lane or sometimes both need to back in the first 5 minutes because a person clicked a spell in a general direction and you lost half your health.

137 Comments

Ahri BakaJun 30, 201935 votes

Aiming a skill shot to burst is much better than being right clicked to death.

SuperLuigiLXIVJun 30, 201926 votes

CORRECT.

At least a bullet hell gives you a chance to avoid the bullets.

Of course, given that the OP is an ADC main, you and I are both probably about the get downvoted to oblivion.

DisembarkJul 1, 201935 votes

Except this whole analogy is stupid. You are punished way more for eating a spell than an auto attack.

Also it’s much harder to constantly dodge a 1100 range ability than not let the adc walk up and auto you at less than 600 range. You deserve to get downvoted but you won’t.

we havent metJul 1, 20196 votes

Except this whole analogy is stupid. You are punished way more for eating a spell than an auto attack.

For most mages, missing your spell and having no cooldowns puts you in a vulnerable state and any person with awareness knows that and can punish you for it.

Also it’s much harder to constantly dodge a 1100 range ability than not let the adc walk up and auto you at less than 600 range. You deserve to get downvoted but you won’t.

If you can't sidestep projectiles you deserve to be morg ccd. If you can't sidestep projectiles you deserve to be morg ccd. If you can't sidestep projectiles you deserve to be morg ccd. If you can't sidestep projectiles you deserve to be morg ccd. If you can't sidestep projectiles you deserve to be morg ccd.

I also think you're forgetting that jinx rockets do splash damage. Mf q goes to next traget and as such ends up being rather easy to hit. Lucian can dash in. Ezreal can also dash in. Kaisa also has a speed up and a dash, Tristana also has a dash. Jee wow, it's almost like adcs are given the tools to dodge and avoid mage damage, but because a mage is NOT an idiot and hits them, they should be punished.

Now to reiterate what you said back to you You deserve to get downvoted but you won’t. because boards hates the ideas of mages bot lane and wants to go back to leone the tank one shotting shit left and fucking right.

Hayaishi2Jun 30, 20199 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitsune Kawaii,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EZOoq2HG,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-06-30T23:05:04.615+0000)

Aiming a skill shot to burst is much better than being right clicked to death.

Yes let me "right click you to death" with my dorans blade.

Aiming a skillshot is not even hard when you are against champions that pretty much have 0 lane presence.

Ahri BakaJul 1, 201910 votes

{quoted}

Yes let me "right click you to death" with my dorans blade.

Aiming a skillshot is not even hard when you are against champions that pretty much have 0 lane presence.

Yeah let a mage burst you with item 1056 or item 3303 then ? Your logic makes no sense

Hayaishi2Jul 1, 20196 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitsune Kawaii,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EZOoq2HG,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2019-07-01T02:38:28.582+0000)

Yeah let a mage burst you with or then ? Your logic makes no sense

Brand and Zyra would like a word with you.

Ahri BakaJul 1, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Brand and Zyra would like a word with you.

They don't. They barely take half of your hp , is it high? yes but they are early game champions It's like as if Draven doesn't 3 or4 Axe anyone in early , he is early game champion lol

ŚhunpoJul 2, 20193 votes

Half your HP? summoner 14

OtterlyLostJul 1, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitsune Kawaii,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EZOoq2HG,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2019-07-01T02:38:28.582+0000)

Yeah let a mage burst you with or then ? Your logic makes no sense

Level 3 lux with item 3303 , Aery, two adaptive force runes, and Scorch does about 240 damage if she lands her Q, empowered AA, and E.

A level 3 Tristana with item 1054 (because this is the common starting item for her), PTA, and one adaptive force rune does 71.3 damage with a single AA.

So at level 3, a Lux can take roughly 30% of Tristana's health from further away(I.E. from safer away) while the Tristana can AA Lux once and take about 20% but do it at a far more dangerous range... meaning the Lux can easily retaliate. The Tristana does not have the same luxury.

So while a mage isn't "bursting" per say but they are definitely doing more damage while being far harder to punish.

3TWarriorJul 1, 20192 votes

alright, let's assume this is level 3, that means that tristana has also taken 3 abilties and will not just hit you with 1 auto attack

Who tristana lanes with can impact how aggressive she can play as well, so i'll leave this to just numbers for the kit itself

if lux is in auto attack range, so is tristana, so, you have your 71.3 AA damage, minimum 70 + 50% bonus AD (that gets higher per rank) , if she lands that 1 auto attack after landing E, that increases the damage to minimum: 91 + 65% bonus AD

add the two together and that's 162.3 + 65% bonus AD minimum in one poke attempt, two thirds of the damage in the minimal scenario. If you are allowed an extended skirmish, Tristana gains a MASSIVE amount of attack speed from her Q and PTA and can increase the damage of her E even higher

if you want the all 3 abilties burst damage scenario, you get 4 auto attacks + (154 + 110% bonus AD) + 95

4 * 71.3 = 285.2 + 249 = 544.2 and if you want to get into "possible" damage, you can also use your jump again to add another 95

#thing about marksmen, most of their damage is targeted early game (or very difficult to dodge). Supports do have more burst damage, but marksmen can match their laning partners if properly applied. the issue comes from compatibility between marksmen and the support

Crescent DuskJul 1, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitsune Kawaii,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EZOoq2HG,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2019-07-01T02:38:28.582+0000)

Yeah let a mage burst you with or then ? Your logic makes no sense

Especially since ADC's outDPS many mages early.

I had the distinct displeasure of being cheesed by a Kai'sa mid as Annie. That garbage champ pre-6 virtually outburst me as a short range mage just with her Icathian rain and proceeded to auto me to death, all with her range advantage on top of the W poke and mobility advantage as well.

3TWarriorJul 1, 20192 votes

Ashe Draven MissFortune etc...

there are quite a few champions who are practically guaranteed large amounts of burst damage AND large amounts of sustained damage

pickcollinsJul 1, 20194 votes

You and everyone who says this is full of shit. You know how I know that? Bc 90% of the people who said shit like this whined their ever loving asses off when Zoe was meta.

AnidanJul 1, 20196 votes

"skillshots are better than targeted!"

meanwhile, in the time machine of whinging past "Zoe is trash design" "Lee Sin is braindead easy to play" "Vel'koz does way too much damage" "Lux needs range reduced" or "Lux needs damage nerfs" or "Lux needs mana costs increased"

And so on. As it turns out, skillshots are just another "pick your poison" deal. Yeah, they give you a chance to dodge... but that one time you couldn't dodge it you're punished much harder. Implement something like disjoint and make it more readily available and oh, would you look at that, targeted suddenly wouldn't be so terrible and you still have counterplay options. But nah, better instead keep infinite mobility and skillshots flying around like Touhou instead.

abca98Jul 1, 20192 votes

Lee doesn't have a skillshot when he can ward on top of you, jump on the ward, slow you AND ONLY THEN Q, or alternatively, R-Q.

Hayaishi2Jun 30, 201933 votes

Get mages out of bot lane please.

TwitchInMyPantsJul 1, 201913 votes

{quoted}

Get mages out of bot lane please.

Honestly we can have mages botlane, just introduce more counterplay.

Mages are healthy when tanks and enchanters can shut them down for not playing their asses off. As is however, even if you miss you're typically out-trading people since enchanter shields/heals are often nerfed and tanks often won't have the ranged tools to trade back so even if you whiff skillshots you just land spellthief autos for bonus true damage anyway.

That downtime when a mage doesn't have their spells really should be more punishable but its mainly how the support role is balanced atm.

MarshbouyJul 1, 20192 votes

That downtime when a mage doesn't have their spells really should be more punishable but its mainly how the support role is balanced atm.

IMO this is the biggest issue. It used to be that if lux fucked up and missed her Q she could be easily jumped on and punished for it, but now lux has 5 seconds of vulnerability before her Q is back up.

Feel ApathyJul 1, 20195 votes

How ?

Do we buff them into mid lane/jungle/top lane instead ?

Top lane doesn't want mages/ranged champions.

Mid lane has Yasuo / Zed / Talon / Irelia , they can't go there either.

Jungle ? Kha'Zix / Lee Sin/ Elise / Eve

Hayaishi2Jul 1, 20194 votes

[{quoted}](name=Feel Apathy,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EZOoq2HG,comment-id=00040002,timestamp=2019-07-01T17:18:24.850+0000)

How ?

Do we buff them into mid lane/jungle/top lane instead ?

Top lane doesn't want mages/ranged champions.

Mid lane has Yasuo / Zed / Talon / Irelia , they can't go there either.

Jungle ? Kha'Zix / Lee Sin/ Elise / Eve

That is for Riot to figure it out. Perhaps if they balanced the game instead of rotating the meta to suit their needs we wouldn't have these peoblems in the first place.

BeersteinJun 30, 201916 votes

As a Jungler, I tried the bot lane a bit with a friend. It was the most horrendous experience I've ever had playing league. It's like lane RNG what whack ass meta is the opponent going to go for, is it going to hard counter you, and how much crap are you going to have to dodge just to CS?

Too busy dodging crap to play the game, and when I'm not it's some insane off meta crap that I couldn't counter pick, or got straight counter picked with because who knew they picked that for bottom?

Honestly, the whole experience was disgusting. I'll take a top lane kench opponent 10/10 times over that.

That said, I think killing Manaflow band and biscuit mana might be a good start to calming the lane down.

Of course, I'll play anywhere but bot lane so maybe I'm not the right demographic to complain, it's just not my cup of tea.

Haze97Jul 1, 20192 votes

Your post is full of bs.

No you wouldn't take a top lane Kench over this. You obviously haven't played enough top lane to understand how it works. The people upvoting your post are ADC mains but compared to top lane the role of an ADC is a piece of cake.

As a jungler, I don't expect you to understand laning all too well either way but with a bit of wave management, learning to ward, and learning to punish your opponent between cooldowns any lane can be played relatively easily and even then ADC mains refuse to learn to do any of these things and would rather complain of the meagre diversity in their lane.

Jerry SeinfeIdJul 1, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Your post is full of bs.

No you wouldn't take a top lane Kench over this. You obviously haven't played enough top lane to understand how it works. The people upvoting your post are ADC mains but compared to top lane the role of an ADC is a piece of cake.

As a jungler, I don't expect you to understand laning all too well either way but with a bit of wave management, learning to ward, and learning to punish your opponent between cooldowns any lane can be played relatively easily and even then ADC mains refuse to learn to do any of these things and would rather complain of the meagre diversity in their lane.

maybe you hate adc a bit much to be a fair judge?

MAybe toplaners shouldn't be crying over tham then? after all they just gotta get better at the game? maybe they shouldn't bitch about viktor, or karma, or even teemo in the off chance riot allows him to be good.

playing vs botlane vel koz is one of the worst experiences i've had in this game, the only thing i've experienced that might just be as bad is playing vs toplane ryze.

Support mages are cool, i like playing em. But support stays the easiest fucking role in laning wether you play a mage, tank or "enchanter" aka a mage with a shield/heal. because all you really NEED to do to not be useless, is throw shit at their adc. If it hits they're probably gonna lose 30-40% of their hp, otherwise they'll probably lose cs. and if you miss, you simply back off safely as noone is in your range anyway and get ready to try again. now unlike top or mid, that person doesn't have to farm. They can simply focus on poking and warding which honestly everyone has to do anyway.

3TWarriorJul 2, 20193 votes

marksmen and bottom lane carries tend to have the easiest role. Many of them have everything required in their kits and if you dodge skillshots, you're fine. You're getting gold constantly funneled into you, have more opportunities than other lanes to land kills, end up relying on auto attack damage for the majority of their after-lane damage, are a high-priority lane for jungler ganks, the meta in bottom lane is the most flexible in the game and i'm sure there's more, besides the obvious always having a support (or near always) at your side

That being said, it's really sad that there are people who can do very badly at it...such as trying to hard-engage when your support is Soraka

least to greatest difficulty: marksman/bot carry, unskilled support (when you actually get into all that the support class can do, it surpasses this level), top laner, mid laner, jungler

ZardoJun 30, 201912 votes

You're lucky. I have to deal with Nautilus every game as an ADC. At least against mages I can bait out the enemy's spells by auto canceling on minions, but against naut he'll just run behind the minion wave and hook me with his lane sized hook if I don't concede the entire wave.

Haze97Jul 1, 20193 votes

Then learn to freeze the wave.

Playing top lane I need to freeze the wave against even someone with a short range as Darius and yet you ranged ADC mains cry about hooks while never learning to freeze the wave.

He literally cannot hook you as reliably when the wave's right in front of your turret.

Haze97Jul 1, 201912 votes

Do you realize that top and mid have always had this in their lanes, but way worse because most champions there aren't even ranged?

Yes you need to dodge skillshots, you need to learn wave management, and you need to learn to poke your opponents between their cooldowns. Top and mid have been doing it for ages and these are parts of the laning phase every player needs to learn.

I could always get behind mages having their mana costs being nerfed even into the mid game, but it's almost as if ADC mains want to win without having to improve their skills at this game.

GayFluffyUnicornJul 1, 20192 votes

To your last point: why do you think enchanters exist and always get buffed back into broken tier?

Edit: atleast for soloq

Josh SandJul 1, 20194 votes

The difference between bot and solo lane (in this specific context), is that your opposing laner has to split their attention between harrassment and farming, while the opposing support can literally spend 100% of their focus on harrassment. The support doesnt lose any gold income if they trade during a moment when another role would normally have to give up CS for it.

Velzard of KozJul 1, 20191 votes

Also ADC might have it harder than others due to weaker early game which is also the point. What he complains about are champions exploiting the weak early game. Like it's cancer but so is ADC that does not have their early game exploited.

Haze97Jul 1, 20193 votes

That's bs. Literally every lane has weak early game champs.

Jax , Tryndamere , and Gangplank In the top lane for example are still champs who can't fight back against most champions in the early game whereas someone like Draven in the bot lane is an early game bully who will fuck you up should you fail to land that CC.

Each lane has its matchups which can't fight back.

Darkdemon653Jun 30, 201911 votes

I imagine the reason Riot has been pushing mages into bot lane over the years is because it makes the role slightly less unpopular to play. I doubt anyone other than the people who play a mage as the support actually enjoy the fact that mages are now supporting.

Exin0Jun 30, 20193 votes

{quoted}

I imagine the reason Riot has been pushing mages into bot lane over the years is because it makes the role slightly less unpopular to play. I doubt anyone other than the people who play a mage as the support actually enjoy the fact that mages are now supporting.

Amen brother i write this everytime new QQ about mages is posted. Bot is not overrun by mages at all but there are rising tendecies also immobile champions are having more and more hard times in "League of Assassins and similar ones". Rise of assassins, guting of supports and lack of tanks changed bot into cc galore and long ranged poke is natural answer to that. Whole game shifted in bias that geting kill is better then keep alive and support nerfs suported in players mind. Then you are put before choice - hmm i will most likely get another cc bot as opponent something like pyke, thresh, blitz or lux if i pick lullu my adc is most likely dead if get caught and my shield dont save him and i will be in constant danger whenever i try do something or i pick another cc bot to get my adc rolling or long range to poke them out. Mages are not weak but are geting slowly pushed out from mid. In span of one year we get two new assassins, one assassin rework, and two new champions listed not as assassins but acting and get played as ones. 6 from 7 last relases are burst champions.

Tuition FeeJul 1, 201910 votes

What if support items got another change? For example, if you buy spellthief's, you get -x% damage, but in return, you get some form of a buff; more gold, or maybe a passive control ward generator+slot to hold it?

For example, last time I played VG, which is basically LoL for phones, supports almost never built damage simply because support items were actually strong, and easy to use, even for auto-filled people. Instead of doing ass loads of damage, you get vision items that passively reload without you doing anything, more beneficial and impactful utility items.

Even if you played a poke support, you wouldn't be fucking up someone's entire HP bar, because of your utility build.

DarkTree1Jul 1, 20198 votes

spellthief's 👏 was 👏 a 👏 mistake 👏

~~and 👏 so 👏 was 👏 brand~~

CojakJul 1, 20194 votes

There's hilarity here because mages are shat on in mid lane by assassins and really need older nerfs reexamined with the current season. Assassins and top laners are tough fights mid. Marksman top are shitting on top laners. Mages shit on bot lane. Jg seems safe for now though

Haze97Jul 1, 20192 votes

They aren't. The only assassins who beat mages hard are Zed , and in the case of an incredibly experienced player, Katarina .

Try playing Talon into an Ahri or Ryze and tell me how that goes.

Posui GartJul 1, 20194 votes

He outroams them, wins 1x1 if they every try to follow his roams and destroys them after item 3814 ?

IP MasquerenaJul 1, 20194 votes

I mean, it's Zed, can't remember the last time I saw a game where he wasn't both picked or banned, he almost exclusively in my games is either picked or banned, and it's a bloody miracle when I find after a game when I check people's most played champs, that's there's less than 2 people with Zed as one of their most 3 played champs.

So saying assassins is pretty much saying Zed, as all other mid lane assassin't are seeing as much play as him. He's edgy, currently one of the strongest champs in the game regardless of elo, as in, not having a negative winrate at any rank, even in Iron he has almost 51% wr, and before people go with "well, that's Iron, in higher elos he's not so good", he has a 63% win rate in Challenger at nearly 300 games this patch.

No negative win rate, large play rate, large ban rate, but he's "he has around 50% win rate, he's balanced, it doesn't matter that he's considered hard to play". He's just too easy to pick up, hence why he's so popular, too easy to pick up, good all around, and getting better on him just makes him stronger, but hey, can't argue with the Zed mains, R > E > miss Q > AA > Ignite > +300 gold does take a lot of skill, and let's not forget, he does need the extra 30 damage with no actual conditions on minions at level 1, he can't farm without having pretty much half his base AD as extra damage.

Call Me NanaJul 1, 20194 votes

{quoted}

actually hard to miss such as lux E, and snare **which cost little to no mana. **

Lux's E is one of the highest mana costs in the game.

Where in the fuck are you getting your info from. **130 mana is HUGE. ** Its more mana than her ult.

Posui GartJul 1, 20192 votes

He obviously meant that lux E is hard to miss, and snare(lux Q) has low manacost. Regardless, spamming her E will push the wave, steal some cs from her adc and leave her oom, while spamming Q will leave her vulnerable for all-ins.

Total ViolationJul 1, 20194 votes

I'm someone who plays Vel'Koz, Xerath and Zyra exclusively in the bot lane. I don't need to see one of the most fair and balanced classes get nerfed into mid lane unviablility, because "ooh they make bot lane too hard".

You immobile ADC mains need to learn that mages are there to counter you. We are there to prevent you from scaling into the late game where you can deal the same amount of damage with 5/6 autoattacks as mages do with an entire combo. Don't complain about how "broken" mages are when you play the squishiest and most immobile class of all. I know you're used to having every game be served on a silver platter, but if you want your champion's counters to get nerfed for your convenience, you're a part of the problem with the comunity's mentality. "My class should be the strongest, everything else should be weak!"

Also, nobody plays enchanters in soloque anymore, because it's an absolutely selfless role. Enchanters have become nothing more than walking blood banks and ward supply. They get destroyed if any other class sneezes on them, and they are completely unable to contribute to winning unless their team is competent. Trust me, i've played Sona alot back in the day, it's horrible to see top and mid going 0/10 and not being able to prevent your base from getting eaten before minute 20.

And another thing, stop with this facist mentality of "X champion can only go to Y lane, or else they're broken."! Stop thinking that Bot lane is for "traditional support only"! Reminder, mages are now more popular in bot lane, because mid lane is now fully infested with Akali/Irelia/Yasuo/ and other hyper mobile monsters who make playing immoblies a nightmare. But am i asking for every mobility spell to be removed, so i can win every game with Vel'Koz? No!

Learn to adapt, play safe, and spell Magic Resist in the shop's search bar. Mages are NOT broken and both them and ADCs have clear strenghtys, counters and weaknesses.

And another friendly tip: Braum Leona Morgana Pyke Galio Blitzcrank Thresh Alistar These supports spit in the face of every one of the champions you listed as "OP".

Jerry SeinfeIdJul 1, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Total Violation,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EZOoq2HG,comment-id=0016,timestamp=2019-07-01T18:47:03.182+0000)

I'm someone who plays Vel'Koz, Xerath and Zyra exclusively in the bot lane. I don't need to see one of the most fair and balanced classes get nerfed into mid lane unviablility, because "ooh they make bot lane too hard".

You immobile ADC mains need to learn that mages are there to counter you. We are there to prevent you from scaling into the late game where you can deal the same amount of damage with 5/6 autoattacks as mages do with an entire combo. Don't complain about how "broken" mages are when you play the squishiest and most immobile class of all. I know you're used to having every game be served on a silver platter, but if you want your champion's counters to get nerfed for your convenience, you're a part of the problem with the comunity's mentality. "My class should be the strongest, everything else should be weak!"

Except that's not what ppl are asking for. ppl just want some time before 1 skillshot takes about 40% of their hp. And they're not exactly hard to land as support, much easier than in mid lane tbh.

And another thing, stop with this facist mentality of "X champion can only go to Y lane, or else they're broken."! Stop thinking that Bot lane is for "traditional support only"! Reminder, mages are now more popular in bot lane, because mid lane is now fully infested with Akali/Irelia/Yasuo/ and other hyper mobile monsters who make playing immoblies a nightmare. But am i asking for every mobility spell to be removed, so i can win every game with Vel'Koz? No!

then maybe stop with the "facist mentality" you're showing towards adc players? nah? i'm fine with mages bot, hell i've always prefered playing lux in the support role. But even i can see that it's some bullshit rn. also these boards lose their shit as soon as an adc shows it's face in any other lane/role.(see sub 50% winrate lucian mid, +/-44% winrate ez jungle, vayne top/jungle, quinn).

PhantomPranksterJul 1, 20194 votes

{quoted}

buff... janna

i was fine with everything you were saying until you said buff janna

i dont think you want a buffed janna bro

BoilTheOilJul 1, 20192 votes

No bot lane is dodgeball

arcDapineappleJul 1, 20192 votes

Maybe we can buff the base magic resistance on range champion by alittle bit to help them in early game. Melee>range>magic

General Esdeath Jul 1, 20192 votes

Take Blitz/Thresh and hook the squishy

But yeah Riot needs to lower the mana gain from item 3303

GlaricionJul 1, 20192 votes

Mages acting as supports would be fine if they hadn't buffed gold generation so hard, especially for supports. The issue is that even if they aren't able to get any kills, they still scale well enough to be an effective secondary APC.

Taking a second core into bot should have some risk to it, but at the moment there really isn't any.

ShadWoooJul 1, 20192 votes

Okay but if we remove mages from support we can already delete that class from game. Bruisers and assassins got them out of the mid and anytime they find success in top or jungle they are nerfed to oblivion. So whats left?