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Camille is like Zed, and should be treated as such.

trash sion··29 votes·2,981 views

Camille poses a bit of a problem. I wouldn't say she's "OP" in regular ranked play, but she definitely isn't weak. However, even if her winrate is balanced, she feels terrible to play against. Super unfun and oppressive.

In pro play, she has the outplay potential, pick potential, and kit to be successful even when weak or balanced in normal ranked.

Does anyone know what champion these statements also fit? That's it. Zed.

In early 2016, Zed was not necessarily OP, but felt like shit to play against. Manaless, could match the poke of most mages, and won most all-ins. It felt like there was little room for counterplay. He was also playable in pro play because of his outplay potential, despite being balanced and not explicity broken. However, he was nerfed due to his oppressive playstyle and making games feel unfun.

This can be related to Camille. Just like how Zed had multiple compensations in his kit to keep up with ranged mages, Camille does too. However, what Zed had in poke and trade combos, Camille has in damage mitigation and all-in potential.

Rather than matching enemy poke and damage, she mitigates it through her passive shield and heals. And although her trades are decent, they aren't on the level Zed's were. Most of her power is in her all-ins, where she can engage from off the screen and prevent escape. Also akin to Zed, she succeeds in pro play just due to the inherent outplay and pick potential in her kit, not necessarily due to being strong.

What I'm getting at is that Camille really isn't OP. She just feels like shit to play against, and that's fine. That shouldn't exclude her from nerfs, though, because even a balanced champion making the game unfun is a problem.

24 Comments

Oleandervine14 votes

Camille definitely needs nerfs. Even Meddler has stated as much in the State if the Game. He mentioned the potency of her shield as being an issue. That said, I love her to death and think she's fun to play. She's not as easy to pick up, and while not equitable to Zed in terms of skill level, she's by no means simple to master either. I hope they do nerf her at some point soon. I like her, and I'd like to play her again.

doodlebob66611 votes

She has a massive ban rate, a decent play rate, and still a pretty high winrate:http://na.op.gg/champion/statistics. She is flat overpowered and needs drastic nerfs, and that before you consider pro play where she is permabanned. I think she feels more oppressive than she would normally because of how strong she is currently,

Also zed is a champion with a pretty high skill floor, and he was managing positive winrates with a 13% playrate and a 43% ban rate, meaning that alot of people who didn't main him were playing him, so it can easily be argued that he was op, with the times he was used in pro play adding to this argument, since it was a meta, with kindred, maokai, and ryze, all of whom do very well against him in an organized environment.

RavenMagus8 votes

Zed actually has a pretty low skill floor, especially back when he was big. You click R on the opponent, you press the buttons, you got a kill - all while being able to return to your starting point at any time perfectly safe.

To do more than that - teamfighting against Zhonya's, laning or duelling without your ult, killing more than one person at a time - Zed does require quite a bit of skill. But to do the basics requires very little. Or at least it used to, before he had numerous nerfs to his ult's power. (But I guess that can be what you mean when you say Zed was OP)

TyroneWatermelon5 votes

{quoted}

Zed actually has a pretty low skill floor, especially back when he was big. You click R on the opponent, you press the buttons, you got a kill - all while being able to return to your starting point at any time perfectly safe.

To do more than that - teamfighting against Zhonya's, laning or duelling without your ult, killing more than one person at a time - Zed does require quite a bit of skill. But to do the basics requires very little. Or at least it used to, before he had numerous nerfs to his ult's power. (But I guess that can be what you mean when you say Zed was OP)

Every champ in league requires basic or little to no skill at all

doodlebob6661 votes

Yeah i think i should have said he was hard to play well instead of skill floor,

To do more than that - teamfighting against Zhonya's, laning or dueling without your ult, killing more than one person at a time - Zed does require quite a bit of skill. But to do the basics requires very little. Or at least it used to, before he had numerous nerfs to his ult's power. (But I guess that can be what you mean when you say Zed was OP)

this is pretty much what I meant and that was during a tank meta, so it really wasn't favorable to him, along with the fact that zhonya's gave 100 ap, so every mage always got it, and QSS still ended his ult.

trash sion1 votes

{quoted}

She has a massive ban rate, a decent play rate, and still a pretty high winrate:http://na.op.gg/champion/statistics. She is flat overpowered and needs drastic nerfs, and that before you consider pro play where she is permabanned. I think she feels more oppressive than she would normally because of how strong she is currently,

This is my point, because this is exactly how Zed was. He had a massive banrate because he felt shitty to play against, not because he was blatantly OP. Camille is the same way. They also both have high playrates because they feel rewarding to play and are fun as fuck, which makes them popular. The winrate is due to a decently-low skill floor that a lot of champions have. It's not like her winrate is outrageous, nor was Zed's. Winrates for champions with low skill floors generally hover just above 50%, usually due to the fact that an easy champion vs a hard champion in the hands of someone with no experience will have the easy champion coming out on top more often than not, skewing winrates when people play champions they're unfamiliar with.

doodlebob6661 votes

The fact that she manages a 52.5% winrate, when she is a new release with very few experienced players and is constantly banned, meaning that people who probably shouldn't be playing her in ranked are picking her, shows that she is still ridiculously strong. Also its important to note that she is somehow 100% pick and ban as a carry top during a tank meta in the LCS, this really does point to her being insanely overpowered. riot really does need to nerf her at the very least for competitive play. She is also not ridiculously easy, since most to players, can fight her if they dodge her e, the problem right now is that it's a guaranteed loss if she lands it, because she will get a full combo off then ult you for the kill. I firmly believe that she has a very healthy kit, but she is able to be far to tanky, considering the amount of mobility and damage she has, the same issue fiora had in season 6, which is a massively toxic situation, and makes her seem more oppressive than she normally would be.

bbQsauçe6 votes

[deleted]

AninLegions7773 votes

PREACH!

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

Don't know what you mean, endless waveclear, low cooldown, high range and burst dmg on top of no mana issues once they bought lost chapter seems quite fun, with lots of outplay potential especially when you are playing melee mids like zed, talon, gp.

trash sion1 votes

We aren't talking about Zed currently, we're talking about when he was broken in early 2016. Read the post before you try to hijack it, please.

Handin Out Naps2 votes

I think they are very different tbh. Zed was strong and very annoying to play against, but Camille is just broken. Her gap closer from half a lane away into you not being able to escape is just retarded lol. But also you should know even in early s6 when Zed was at his peak he was still rarely picked in pro play. He had way too much counter play and was only picked as a counter pick to adcs mid in lcs.
Interesting post, but its pretty wrong considering Camille is just broken and Zed has always been trash in pro play.

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

I can't give two shits about boards for real. Once he started how zed has seen pro play i stopped reading. Zed if at all was picked against corki mid or azir though there were still better alternatives and it mostly backfired unless there was a huge skill difference between the teams. Then Febiven vs Faker i think he just picked zed for the lulz as did faker in the last game in IEM.

Handin Out Naps1 votes

Ye Zed was only picked vs Azir, Corki, and Ez. And even then there were better choices. I was confused when he talked about how Zed was a good pick in pro play because of his outplay potential when it was actually the exact opposite. He was rarely picked because he had too much counterplay lol. He tried to compare a 100% pick/ban champ to a champ who was nearly non existent even at his peak.

MorganFreemanBot2 votes

Camile does literally everything and does it well. That's a huge problem.

Think about Darius, arguably the most reviled top laner currently in league. Let's think about his strengths and his weaknesses.

Darius strengths:

True damage Strong sustain High burst Very strong zone control Insane in-fight snowballing Auto-win longer trades

Now, weaknesses:

Weak damage in very short trades Limited range of impact (Darius controls the hell out of his zone, but it's a fairly small zone) Extremely vulnerable to kiting / having being CC'd so that his target can escape Hamstrung usefulness if unable to snowball in a fight Healing is contextual and has no defensive steroids, so he's prone to being killed while kited / CC'd and nuked No hard CC

Darius' strengths make him a nightmare to deal with in lane, but his weaknesses make him very manageable in a team-fighting environment. He's still extraordinarily dangerous and wholly capable of ripping apart a team if not handled properly, but he can be managed.

Now think about Camile, try and do the same break down.

Camile's strengths:

True damage Strong sustain High burst Very strong zone control High sustained damage Massive range of impact (she can easily close on you from half a lane with her E, if she wants to ulti she can get you from the fog of war) immune to kiting Extremely large shield Hard CC The best jungler assist tool in the entire game.

Now, weaknesses:

Her abilities cost mana Her abilities have cooldowns Her passive shield has a cooldown She can be displaced out of her ultimate, cancelling the effect She needs items before she's a strong pusher

Camile lacks any clear or relevant weaknesses. She has health sustain and adaptive shielding to survive any MO. She has sustained and burst damage to function in any sort of trade. She has strong gap-closing potential - which comes with free CC - to fight ranged or face-fuck melee. She has strong base stats for a good early game and strong scaling (including true damage) to stay relevant.

Her weaknesses, few as they are, are the most generic shit you can possibly encounter, and really only offer contextual soft counters at best (CCing anyone during their ultimate is a 'counter', unless they're olaf).

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

And like a few other hypercarry generalists, her weaknesses disappear as she picks up items; making her primary weakness being in a sudden 1vX situation. Even if she's gutted, she'll be frustrating to fight in the right hands due to her overloaded kit. Riot needs to swap their rework team with their champion creation team.

Targon2 votes

One massive nerf they could give Camille is to remove her magic resistance per level - similar to Yasuo and Kassadin. In the laning phase, this would help tank opponents trade with her, as many of tanks deal some form of magic damage on at least one of their abilities.

RainbowIcee1 votes

I Feel She's too safe, you should be able to block her E ( her hook dash ) from working if you stand in her way, she should bump into the champ immediately on the first dash this way you have a way to beat her if you catch her by surprise. Her E is extremely good and has no counter play.

MLDzXnRRR1 votes

Her winrate isn't that high and she is now squishy unlless she builds almost full tank. I think that the nerfs did their job. I would rather face decent Camille than decent Riven, Renekton, Darius, Poppy etc.

Troll for Trump1 votes

Azir Kalista ?

agbudar1 votes

having no counterplay is the very definition of OP/busted

King LeBong1 votes

hahahaahahah Zed has way more counterplay than that bitch

Spoofghoul1 votes

camille can never be nerfed for pro play

i mean just look at her kit

she will end up like reksai

all damage stripped and still the nr1 pick

Papa Slothy1 votes

Zed does not do well in pro play, he may have had an 100% winrate but he was only played 5 times and only into decent matchups/comps

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