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League vs Dota: Counterplay

CrazedPorcupine··8 votes·2,717 views

League vs Dota: Counterplay

This thread is designed to communicate how Leage and Riot provide counterplay compared to Dota 2 and Valve. Each game has different design and balance philosophies.

LEAGUE OF LEGENDS League is well known for it's use of skill shots, AoE delayed nukes, and other factors that require human skill to play properly.

Skill shots show that you must lead your target, position yourself relative to your surroundings, and your opponent. This is a great way to express skill on the parts of both players. You end up having both players trying to anticipate what the opponent is going to do next, based on what their actions are; how they move, how they manage their skills and cooldowns, and a host of other things.

AoE Delayed skillshots require anticipation of the opponent's movements and generally have rewards for hitting sweet spots, or are telegraphed to help allow counterplay by allowing the opponent to dodge out of the way. These also require prediction and a knowledge of what exactly the enemy player has built, how mobile they are, whether you have CC in your kit to help land the AoE ability.

However, there are issues with this type of gameplay and game design. Skill shots and AoE delayed skills are only able to be retaliated by MOVEMENT. This means that in order for opponents to truly counterplay opponent abilities, they most be MOBILE. This has lead to an increase of mobility based champs because in order for them to be effective, they must be able to DODGE the opponents abilities and then retaliate. HOWEVER, the COUNTER to mobility is POINT AND CLICK.

Point and click as a design is actually a healthy addition to the game, by providing garanteed damage and reliability against mobility which has become common place in League because the focus on Skillshots for the Design Philosophy.

Champs with Point and click should be weaker in terms of damage than their skill shot based companions, but that is because their damage is reliable. However, this does not mean that point and click champions should be so weak they're not played at all. Point and Click champions need tools in their kit to counter the high mobility/high potential damage champions that are so prevalent.

Veigar's rework is meant to increase counterplay by turning his kit into more delays, and to skill shots (with the exception of his ult), however Veigar lacks the ability to counterplay his opponents because he lacks the reliable CC and mobility that is needed to counter them. By removing this reliability, and making his damage skill shot based, Riot has removed any and ALL reasons to pick Veigar over another more mobile mid that does the same amount of damage, and doesn't take as long to build up to max power.

a Lack of Counterplay is good, and healthy, if the power of the ability is roughly equivalent or only slightly weaker than a skill shot equivalent. Otherwise, you end up with a clash of, one is obviously better.

TL; DR In league of legends, Mobility is the counter to Skill shots, and thus since Riot has chosen mobility and skill shots for their balance design, point and click skills will inevitably get reworked into skill shots, because if they're too strong, there is no reason to pick the skill shot.

DOTA 2

Dota 2 is known for it's game changing ultimates, it's powerful point and click abilities, and for the lack of scaling in the game for it's abilities. This design philosophy is not "Bad" or "Broken" simply different.

In Dota 2, point and click abilities are very strong and powerful, because there are many many many ways to counter point and click abilities. Stealth breaks targeting for skill shots and auto attacks, Blinks often do the same and even certain types of CC render targets untargetable. Each of these provides a different form of counterplay.

Dota 2 in order to provide counterplay to the point and click abilities and reliability of these skills, provide either actives in the kit, (Puck's W and Outworld's W) Items (Eul's Sceptor) or outright immunity (BKB, Omniknight's Magic Immunity). These are also reliant on player skill since they usually require specific timing on one person's part, this type of counterplay is more like Sivir's spell shield. Where the skill and counterplay comes from the power of human reaction.

However, because of how powerful BKB and Magic immunity would be if there weren't some way to counter them, there is still counterplay in the form of Magic Piercing spells, usually long cooldown ultimates. Therefore, there is a host of counterplay in Dota 2, but the design behind the counterplay is fundamentally different than in League.

TL; DR: Dota 2 is different in that it provides unique active abilities for players to use to counter it's myriad of point and click abilities. Doing this means that counterplay is still dependant on human reaction, but in a different manner.

CONCLUSION All of the reworks in League of Legends in the name of "Providing counterplay" are actually true. League doesn't have the tools to really deal with strong point and click abilities, with the exceptions of Zhonya's, Elise Rappel, Vlad W, Fizz E. Since there is so little way for League to balance around Point and click abilities, you have a slow creep in the NECESSITY for mobility. Point and click counters mobility, so when point and click is too strong, it get's nerfed, because Riot favors Mobility based counterplay rather than item/ability activated counterplay. So, this is why champs like Zilean get nerfed repeatedly, why Veigar is never allowed to be strong, and why Sona has gotten nerfed over and over and over again. Because they lack the types of counterplay that Riot prefers for the game of League of Legends.

So when you look at reworks or champion kits, don't instantly complain about the fact that the champion will (almost certainly) contain some form of mobility, think about the fact that Riot NEEDS Mobility in League in order to provide the counterplay they've designed the game around. Immobile champs are inherently weak because they don't have the tools to counter the skill shot based gameplay that League is so dependant on. If you gave the common immobile champs some form of mobility, they'd instantly be top tier picks because often times they have the power and damage to out DPS the common picks, but because they don't have the mobility that has become so necessary, they aren't picked.

41 Comments

BluePolarizer7 votes

So basically Riot caters to the "1v1 me m8 ill rek you n yo mum" crowd, because using Lee Sin W to dodge an Anivia Q is "LC$ big play$"

CrazedPorcupine4 votes

{quoted}

So basically Riot caters to the "1v1 me m8 ill rek you n yo mum" crowd, because using Lee Sin W to dodge an Anivia Q is "LC$ big play$"

It's not just lee sin, it's flash and the fact that EVERYONE must take flash. This game has become so dependent on mobility that things like Flash are necessary. Graves' dash, Sivir passive and Ult, Vayne Tumble.

Look at the ADC's that aren't popular, Ashe and Varus. They're not useful or used much, because A) their CC and utility is Skill shot based (not really a problem) and B) They don't have any innate mobility compared to champs like Sivir, Corki, Ezreal, Lucian, Tristana, Jinx, etc. Even though Varus and Ashe have incredible power in their kits, they aren't picked that often because they don't have the mobility to keep up or get away from the more mobile champions.

Heal vs Barrier is the same problem One provides some mobility the other doesn't, therefore, the one that provides Mobility is automatically taken even if barrier provided more HP or lasted longer, Heal will get picked because it provides MOBILITY. In a game so dependant on dodging skill shots, Mobility is the most powerful tool a champion can have.

It doesn't matter if it's Lee sin W or Ezreal E, the result is the same, they dodged a skill shot. Lee Sin's problem is that he has too many tools, and not enough moments of weakness where he can be capitalized on.

Ale non è male1 votes

Varus and Ashe are not picked just because they don't have very good power in their kit. Jinx which is basically unpopular and is mostly immobile is a common pick because she has a lot of power and damage. Heal vs Barrier is just a problem of Heal being buffed too much to counter Ignite and Barrier being untouched, because Heal was yet strong on his own and was made even stronger with the result that it basically eat all the space for Barrier

CrazedPorcupine1 votes

You could buff barrier to give twice as much HP as it does now, but because it doesn't grant any mobility, it won't get picked over heal Because heal allows a person to dodge other skill shots, get out of range of abilities and offers more tools to survive.

Ashe and Varus each have very powerful utility in their ults, and Varus has his tank shredding ability and poke, and Ashe has the power of her perma slow that enemies can't run from if she's doing well. The problem is that they don't have the range of other more popular carries (Kog'maw and Trist) or the Mobility of more popular carries (Ezreal, Corki, Graves, Lucian). to really capitalize on their strengths. Especially since other carries have the same tools as they do, but have better mobility or burst. Both Ashe and Varus have been picked competitively before, but not that often, and they don't often do well against champs like Ezreal, Corki, Graves, or Lucian.

Ale non è male1 votes

Mobility on Heal was bad on first stance, and was just the result of the weird series of changes they did to ignite and heal. By the way, it should be barrier that should be buffed, for example absorbing Grevious Wound damage(unlike what it does actually), so that Heal mobility can be removed without ignite taking the clear lead as spell to put next to flash

Ashe and Varus are in a bad spot because too much of their power budget is spent into ulti, and the rest of their kit is too bad. Ashe has literaly no damage late game other than AA, which are not even enhanced AA, because of a weak slow and the uktu. varus has low range and is one of the champs that scales the worse with a standard ADc build, and he doesn't even have an effective alternative build. They are just weak, like MF which has good mobility but is not picked because weak, while an immobile champ like Jinx is picked because she is powerful despite having a weak point in mobility and even range is not especially good (because Fishbones can't be always up since eat too much mana)

CrazedPorcupine1 votes

Except, Ashe's and Varus's Power budgets being on ulti isn't necessarily a bad thing, Jinx's Ult is a giant global range Execute and that's a pretty powerful ult. Jinx is a very stong champ, but has a lot of counterplay through highly telegraphed and delayed skill shots. Ashe doesn't really have that luxury, as her skills aren't exactly very telegraphed. Varus's damage is locked up in having W stacks on the target. Because of this, he isn't as strong as other champs because he must auto 3 times before using an ability in order to deal maximum damage.

It's not that their kits are weak or don't have the same power budgets, its the fact that the kits are designed in a way to offer VERY little counterplay and thus, if they're ever strong, they become dominant picks and push out all other ADC's

Ale non è male1 votes

It is not a bad thing, but it is undeniable that the rest of their kit is too weak and that's why they are widely unviable. Sivir and Jinx have a lot of their power budget in the ulti, but the rest of their kit is still strong so they are common picks without being overwhelming

It looks like you are making too complex of reasoning when things are just straight. Varus and Ashe kits are not kept weak cause their ulti is too powerful and thuse they are not played. It is just that their kit is too weak that they are not played despite having very powerful ulti

The fact Ashe and Varus are not played is a consequence of their being weak, not the other way around The latest marksmen Riot introduced has just a very powerful ulti, was balanced around ulti power, and is still too strong at the moment because the rest of her kit needs to be tuned down

CrazedPorcupine2 votes

I never said that their kits are kept weak because of their ults, I said their kits are kept weak because of the lack of counterplay involved with their kits.

If varus get's 3 autos on you, he can land one of 3 abilities to instantly nuke a huge % of your max HP.

Ashe can keep you from running if you burn flash because her auto attack slows are unavoidable unless you get out of range, but because it's a huge slow, you can't get out of range because Ashe is moving faster than you. Thus Ashe can't be strong, because there aren't ways to play against Ashe other than, "Get out of range"

Eventually Ashe will get reworked, and likely so will Varus. Kalista unfortunately lacks very meaningful counterplay and windows of opportunity because of her extreme mobility.

Ale non è male1 votes

What can't be counterplayed in Ashe kit? Her stun have a low duration if she has to ulti because you are on her face, her WEAK slow (35% slow is huge slow for the current Mordekaiser, not for any champ with some mobility tool) is countered by dashes and mobility boosts and she has no damage late game other than AAs (Volley damage is measly, and can also be blocked by minions) Her kit is not kept weak, it is just too old because it originally put power in vision, power which is now much weaker with the vision changes and doesn't have anymore enough power to be viable if not in very extreme situation and that's why she is not picked

And Vayne kit has even less counterplay than Varus, since she can deal even more damage than Varus every 3 AAs, she has a very low CD dash, a conditional stun and Varus abilities can be pretty much kited...but Vayne is a strong pick with less counterplay than Varus and is not going to be reworked, guess why? Because she is strong, while Varus is in trouble

CrazedPorcupine1 votes

Ashe's Kit is old yes, and she's due for a rework, but it will be along the scale of Sivir's rework. Keeping her kit essentially the same, but updating it to bring it forward.

Vayne also is short range, and if caught, doesn't have the mobility to easily escape. yeah she can deal loads of DPS, but fact is, Vayne's damage and mechanics put her at a severe disadvantage vs champs like Cait, Graves, Lucian who all have longer range or better short range burst or mobility than Vayne does.

Varus has longer range than Vayne does, longer auto range, longer poke range, better CC, and the ability to stop the healing of the person he's dueling. Vayne is picked more often than Varus, because she has better mobility than Varus does.

Ale non è male1 votes

Did I say that Vayne can't be beaten? No. But you mentioned Varus W as source of counterplay when Vayne deal much more damage in an easier way and you mentioned mobility as a Vayne problem when Vayne can escape much better than varus and keep dealing damage If these Varus W and the low mobility paired with ulti makes the Varus kit a "low counterplay kit", than what we should say of a champ which has a stun, a dash and a much better version fo Varus W? The range is also similar...

Varus is weak because her weak is outplayed hard in something except ultimate CC by basically all the marksmen which go bot, that's why is not picked. Not because his kit is kept weak because of the low counterplay. It's simple

BluePolarizer1 votes

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4675321

relevant.

16/18 Varus ranked wins with the 3x BF sword build from season 4.

I think you are severely underestimating how good Varus is as an AD caster poke ADC like Lucian, Ezreal or Corki with his 1.4 Q scaling.

BluePolarizer1 votes

Varus's pure AD build is decent. All you do is stack BF swords until 3, because there's no point in getting him early crit since his power budget is not just in ult, but also in his ridiculous AOE Nidalee spear on the Piercing Arrow with an insane 1.4 AD ratio.

Then you finish up with BT, 2x IE, LW, Greaves and GA or finally PD, IE, Mercurial, LW, Greaves and some other random AD item, maybe cleaver.

The thing is, Varus doesn't need attack speed in the right comp (poke/siege/splitpush). All he needs to do is spam arrow for waveclear and 700 damage poke. If anyone dives, his passive plus greaves and runes give him something like 1.2 attack speed so the double IE 50% crit still hurts bad. Then you get to full build with 2x IE, BT, PD, greaves, and anyone that actually reaches you through your arrow spam and they get melted by your 80% crit with +240 AD.

Ale non è male1 votes

Except this is a very expensive build ad has to be seen if varus player can get till that point

BluePolarizer1 votes

If you can get a single IE, you can get 2x BF sword and a pickaxe, which is superior to IE early game, and Varus is one of the few ADs where AD is superior to crit.

Ale non è male1 votes

How do you play in lane against an heavy pusher with this build? Defensively or offensively?

BluePolarizer1 votes

Varus Q and E is good enough waveclear. check the link I posted, some guy got like 16/18 ranked wins with stacked BF sword varus.

Ale non è male1 votes

If you use it for wave clear what are you left with if enemies try to trade you once you have used it? just asking

BluePolarizer1 votes

Its pretty stupid to try to trade with Varus when a single Q can chunk an ADC or squishy support for 1/3 HP from 1000 range away once he gets a BF sword, since all he has to do is auto 3 times, E, then walk away and hit with Q for an easy kill. As long as Varus hits at least half his Q's onto the enemy champ, there's nothing they can do except dive him with Leona and a short ranged ADC, or he gets grabbed by Blitz/Thresh.

Ale non è male1 votes

Q is dodgeable if Varus want to charge its damage though, as he got reduced MS, so you msut be very good at hitting them to go along with your proposed gameplay, right? And isn't it difficult to do the 3 autos without being retalieated by someone that could keep himself at longer distance by using his ranged abilities?

BluePolarizer1 votes

You must not think of Q as something that you have to hit. Its like Nidalee spear. Do good Nidalees have to hit 100% of the spears otherwise they're useless? No, obviously not, they just need to hit 1-2 good ones to win lane. Q is like a Nidalee spear that goes through minions at the cost of having to charge up. With full arpen runes, all you really need to do is hit 1-2 to win lane.

and who can keep themselves at longer distance than Varus? Most ADCs except Cait, Trist, Jinx in rocket form and Ashe have lower autoattack range than he does, and the ones with long ranged abilities are even easier to dodge than his Q because they either move slower, have a smaller hit box, don't go through minions or have shorter range.

I don't see what's so hard about this lol.

Ale non è male1 votes

Well, a my friend who like to play varus was telling to me how hard was to lane with him, I guess I'll suggest him to try your way and see what happens

SmokingPuffin5 votes

Skillshots are also countered by good positioning in both games. Concretely, it is not at all clear that Yasuo is safer against skillshots than Xerath.

The fundamental difference between DotA and League is reliability versus unreliability. In DotA, a team can reasonably expect their plan to work. In League, you have to react to what works and what doesn't. This makes DotA feel more strategic and League feel more twitchy.

Also, it's worth mentioning that designing unreliable skillshots in DotA doesn't really work, because turn rates. This is pretty much the root of the differences between the two games, and you'll see the impact everywhere if you look for it.

CrazedPorcupine2 votes

great points, but if you also think about the skill shots, they're usually incredibly strong, however since the same things that dodge point and click in Dota for the most part dodge skill shots as well, it offers just as much counterplay in Dota.

SmokingPuffin3 votes

Agreed. I don't mean that DotA lacks counterplay. Just a different design philosophy.

Raptamei3 votes

Actually, counterplay in Dota is more strategic. The idea is that when hero X does Y, you are almost guaranteed to die, but that's okay, just split push or deathball or pick them off or have wards and stunlock them etc etc etc so hero X won't really get to do Y at all.

Every hero is bullshit in some way, and the game is about making sure you can do your bullshit and never giving the enemy an opportunity to use theirs. What's the point of Bane's 9 second cc lock if you always gank him 4v1, and what good will Magnus' 4 second AoE stun/pull do when you split push all 3 lanes and never teamfight? Who cares about PA's 50 minute godmode if you win at 15 minutes? Etc.

What you call "counterplay" in Dota (normal people call it "counterpicking" or "counterbuilding" because there's little play involved) is a strategic decision. You pick Pugna because he shits on Skywrath and pushes towers really hard. You don't need much skill in executing either, but picking him is where the skill comes in, because the enemy will know you're tempted to pick Pugna and will punish you for doing so etc.

The only combat skills Dota requires are timing and multiple unit micro, but it has another layer of depth which League threw out and replaced with a playbook of game phases and the whole meta around them.

CrazedPorcupine1 votes

You do bring up valuable points, I meant from a gameplay standpoint, point and click abilities are more prevalent in Dota 2, regardless of what they do or which champion is using them, and there are lots of mechanical and timing based ways to avoid those point and click abilities. Like Lina's ult, which is a giant 1000 damage point and click nuke. there are lots of ways to help deal with that damage, and that's where counterplay comes in. A 1000 true damage nuke that's point and click would never fly in league because there'd be no way to avoid it's damage without buying a zhonya's. In Dota 2, there are multiple items that can take the place of zhonya's, by providing untargetability, like Eul's scepter or provide magic immunity like BKB. This provides counterplay to an ability that would be incredibly broken in League.

Raptamei2 votes

{quoted}

You do bring up valuable points, I meant from a gameplay standpoint, point and click abilities are more prevalent in Dota 2, regardless of what they do or which champion is using them, and there are lots of mechanical and timing based ways to avoid those point and click abilities. Like Lina's ult, which is a giant 1000 damage point and click nuke. there are lots of ways to help deal with that damage, and that's where counterplay comes in. A 1000 true damage nuke that's point and click would never fly in league because there'd be no way to avoid it's damage without buying a zhonya's. In Dota 2, there are multiple items that can take the place of zhonya's, by providing untargetability, like Eul's scepter or provide magic immunity like BKB. This provides counterplay to an ability that would be incredibly broken in League.

There is little counterplay to mitigate the 1000 damage nuke. There is tons of counterplay that prevents her from even using it on you though.

Picking Nyx and mana burning her from stealth so she can't cast it is counterplay. Killing the courier with her bottle on it is counterplay. Ganking her from behind and stunning her to death before she can turn around to cast flamestrike is counterplay. Picking QoP and throwing your keyboard against a wall is counterplay.

But when you're staring down the barrel of her ult, there is very little counterplay left (I think you can blink away at the exact moment she casts it and get out of range during the animation) because you already failed in preventing it from getting used. She outplayed you and her reward is that you take 1000 damage.

League is missing the whole "preventing things from happening" angle of counterplay in favour of counterplay that's based exclusively on dodging shit. Doesn't matter if you outsmart the enemy team and ambush them, they can still click to the side and turn it around.

BluePolarizer1 votes

There's a bit of the prevent things from happening in low-mid elo (below Diamond). For example, highly mobile comps with no teamfight potential vs. an immobile AOE comp.

The best example would be a mobile assassin comp like the Blood Moon comp (Shen/Elise/Akali/Kalista/Thresh, all with blood moon skins) vs. a completely immobile AOE comp, like the Battlecast comp (Cho/Skarner/Viktor/Kog/Vel'Koz, all with battlecast/creator skins). There's no way the blood moon comp can do anything to the battlecast comp in a 5v5 because Viktor's point and click instant AOE slow/stun combined with Cho's AOE stun/silence and Vel'Koz's bullshit AOE damage even when all he has is boots and frostfang, and with Skarner peeling for them.

The way for Blood Moon to win is to win lane, then push all 3 lanes 1-3-1 and never teamfight, only grouping to ward enemy jungle and pick people off. This is preventing Battlecast from ever getting into a useful 5 man death ball. Conversely, the way for Battlecast to win is to avoid being steamrolled in lane, group as early as possible into a 5 man death ball, then siege mid with their range, AOE and CC. If this goes uncontested, Kog and Skarner will take the towers in seconds.

There's nothing that any of the battlecast champs except maybe Viktor can do when staring down an Akali 1v1, but you can prevent her from getting fed, then abusing her weak teamfight - outpicked.

However, in the real LCS, everyone has balanced teams, and thus there's little out-thinking or outstrategizing to play around a champ's weaknesses.

BluePolarizer2 votes

Exactly this. This is why even in gold, ppl see "OMG their team is Xerath/Amumu/Malphite/Ashe/Leona, our team is Akali/Yi/Pantheon/Ezreal/Soraka, its gg".

No, you absolutely can't teamfight that. You have to gank a key champ (here it is Xerath or Ashe) before they group as 5, abusing globals and mobility to gank and kill isolated targets fast, splitpush, then global/run elsewhere while their team goes to stop you. Meanwhile, their team is also limited - they can't splitpush and they can't really defend splitpushes without splitting the team, so their optimal strategy is to force teamfights at mid towers, dragon or baron.

Instead what I see is team 1 trying to defend Yi splitpushes with Malphite and Malphite getting sliced up wuju style and losing top towers, while team 2 sticks close together and gets wiped by Amumu/Xerath/Jinx/Leona.

There's some champs in league that you can't really outplay like Xerath, Yi, Amumu, Akali, Pantheon, etc. You don't beat them by running at them or mechanically outplaying them, since with good positioning they can't be outplayed. You outplay them by not letting them do their thing. Xerath is amazing in 5v5 sieges or defending 4v5? Then splitpush 1-3-1 because Xerath can't really engage either, or gank him before the fight so their team loses their waveclear. Yi is amazing 1v1 or splitpushing? Then either collapse on him, or let Leona defend inners, since Yi can't facetank the towers until late game. Akali is fed as hell? Then group and never let her touch you because she's trash in 5v5 teamfights if not megafed. etc, etc.

It is sad though, that Riot is moving away from having a system that at least has elements from DOTA, and moving it in the "1v1 LC$ big play$" direction.

CrazedPorcupine2 votes

Bumping to get this back up to the top of the boards, this is a thread that lots of people should see, as it helps explain the reasonings behind some of the recent changes on the PBE.

Ale non è male2 votes

Dear Op, your conclusions are wrong. It is just a matter of champ design. On some champs point and click abilities are needed, because skillshot doesn't fit with the character or his gameplay, period. If anything, the fact that they counter mobility, is an even better thing since they keep in check mobility which has becomed far too dominant in league When Riot can swap point and click for skillshot, they'll do it because it is true that at times point and click could give too little counterplay and thus they have the need to be kept in check as much as mobility needs to be kept in check, but point and click will remain, and also on new future champs there will be some kind of point and click abilities when needed

And no, people have all the right to complain about excessive mobility given at no or little expenses on some champ kits/reworks. Riot does not NEED mobility in a vacuum, Riot needs to have mobility strength balanced with the other different kind of powers in game. And no, point and click won't need to be automatically nerfed when they are doing their job or are too strong to counter certain common champs, they need to be nerfed only when they prove to be too strong against almost any kind of champs (main example current Ryze which is basically balanced arounnd range on his point and click)

CrazedPorcupine2 votes

if that's the case why are they reworking Veigar? I agree that Point and click is viable and perfectly balanceable since we see point and click abilities quite often. Yasuo has a point and click for his dash, Braum as a point and click for his leap, Brand's point and click is his E.

But the thing is, Point and click is becoming less and less powerful and more a utility for other spells. In many cases, point and click doesn't ever show up, In fact, very few champs have point and click abilities that are incredible damage spells.

Zilean is getting his Q reworked because the point and click double bombing had no counterplay to it. Annie's Q and Ult will probably be next under scrutiny because of her lack of her opponents to really react to a flash tibber's stun. Sion got reworked because when he was strong, his point and click damage was outrageous and pushed other AP champs out of the game.

I'm not saying Point and click is terrible, I'm simply stating that Riot will never have a champ that's pure point and click, because that champ would need to be weaker because he'd automatically out class all other champions, even if he wasn't mobile. It's the reason that even though Xerath is a top pick right now, he's not mobile, he has the tools to make up for it through his range and damage, but his damage is also skill shot based, making him a balanced and healthy choice, while OLD Xerath was boring, and not very fun to play because his gameplay was mostly point and click becaues of his old E.

Riot doesn't HATE point and click abilities, they hate point and click abilities without any telegraphing, any warning or any ability to effectively react to the opponent. This is the reason why Cait ult is balanced and won't ever be changed, because it offers unique counterplay by allowing it to be blocked by champs, killing cait before the cast time is over, or other things.

Ale non è male1 votes

{quoted}

if that's the case why are they reworking Veigar?

Because DFG removal force Riot to give some help to what were previously DFG users, and once they have to do these balance changes, this situation ends up in being a good situation to look better at the kit of some old champs which aren't actually play a lot and see in what kind of way their kits can be made more appealing for the players in the current meta. The situation for some champs would have just never going to be tackled in another situation, since they would have still not represented a priority in the short term since there are some other champs higher in priority rework list (Urgot, Poppy, Zac. etc...). Do you think that kata would receive big changes although she is a point and click champ? No, because Riot acknowldege she is very strong with the actual kit

Zilean rework start long time ago because too much of his power budget was in his Q as much as it was in his ulti. In that situation point and click was a problem, but it was because Zilean champ design, in Annie situation it isn't instead a problem and so it won't be otuched(or at leats I hope it so) - and Annie ult isn't a point and click, anyway -

I don't think you are completely wrong in your reasoning, but it is just that you went far off on some points with the conclusions. When you said that point and click will be nerfed to counter mobility that is needed in league, and people should not complain about it and champs rework, you should ask instead if mobility isn't actually too strong and so look at the reason why people don't like certain kind of changes when other champs are left untouched

CrazedPorcupine2 votes

Veigar's has always been kept weak for the same reason that Poppy and Irelia are kept weak. If they get to strong, they end up crowding out all other choices. Buffing Veigar when DFG was in the game, meant that Veigar would just wreck harder and harder and NO ONE not even tanks, could stand in his way. Katarina is balanced in that she's a melee champ that has to stay close range to deal her damage, but the problem is, she is strong even though she's point and click, because she has MOBILITY, She has a blink that she can use to dodge skill shots, get in and out of fights, avoid ganks. Riot has plans to rework Katarina, and they showed up on the PBE a few weeks ago. Riot has plans for reworking Katarina.

Zilean's rework started a long time ago with the removal of his global aura passive. But that was because Riot removed ALL the global Aura passives which included TF and Janna, because global Auras gave too much invisible power. Zilean's current rework removes his Point and click powers by removing his permaslow/haste, and making his bombs skill shots that can be avoided.

Annie's Ult, has no cast delay, has no broadcast that she's using it, it's an instaneous AoE damage that has no way to react to her dropping it unless you flash away as she flashes. Because of that, Eventually riot WILL rework Annie's ult to allow more counterplay in the initial drop. Becuse if annie drops tibbers on you with her stun up, you are guaranteed to be forced to burn flash if you live, or else die to a second Q from annie.

Point and click will constantly get nerfed because point and click counters Mobility too hard, and League doesn't have the tools to deal with strong point and click abilities. That's why even though taric has a guaranteed stun, he isn't picked, because the other champs that have conditional or skill shot stuns have STRONGER stuns, or more utility, thus when they DO land their skill shots, it's WAY more powerful and impactful. Thus Even though Taric's point and click stun is reliable, other stuns like Leona stun or Nami bubble, are way mroe powerful since they're conditional stuns that aren't guaranteed.

Riot Will not buff point and click spells, because outside of Zhonya's and some champs' untargetability skills, you can't avoid piont and click, or use flash to disjoint the spell (you used to be able to, but then Riot removed it) Meaning that in League, Point and click must be left weak, or risk pushing out all other champs.

Ale non è male1 votes

It's not like Veigar has always been kept weak. He has being substantially untouched since season two. Heck, if you check his changes on wikia he got even slightly QoL buffs here and there since then. And it can easily be argued how back then he was in a better situation than the actual one and was not that weak back then. it is just that mobility and the assassins/bruiser too strong in a certain meta just outperformed his kit and put him in a relatively weak position. He isn't in a situation similar to Poppy and Irelia when those champs have so overwhelming abilities that they must be kept weak overall to limit them. And Riot has no serious intentions on reworking Kata anytime soon, otherwise they could have just used the QQ wave to do it so way before. Kata could have some change here and there, but nothing that modify her gameplay radically, and she has a strong champ with pont and click kit

Zilean rework, again, was not a matter of a problem with point and click, and with him being too strong or weak, is a problem of having a champ that was way too binary. The biggest change of the new Q it is not that isn't anymore point and click, it is that allow more flexible play with double bomb which is not limited to huge burst, but also to multiple stun

Annie is counterplayed by range, that is very low also on Tibbers, and forces here to burn Flash herself to effectively ult, leaving no way for her to survive is someone saved himself through spellshields or spells that make champs untargetable (for example even a well timed Master Yi Q).

Point and click must be balanced in the context of everything else in League, not kept weak because they counter mobility and mobility, especially actual mobility, is needed too much in the game, that's where your reasoning fail. You can't costantly nerf point and click if you keep mobility these strong and make it even stronger like it seems will happen, because it make no sense from an overall balance point of view.. You can't even buff it regardless if anything else. You got to find the right balance, which is something you are not getting if you keep buffing mobility which is yet very strong and you keep nerfing point and click which is yet kept weak

CrazedPorcupine1 votes

Riot put some changes to Katarina on the PBE a few weeks ago, and pulled them not long after, Riot does have plans and intends to rework Kat.

As for Veigar, small QoL buffs like the changes to his Q gaining double stacks on kill of large minions/large monsters/champions is all fine and good, but they haven't changed his Q or W or R in terms of Damage because if they buffed the damage at all, Veigar would instantly become the best counter pick to AP mids in the game. Veigar's playstyle doesn't offer for much reactionary gameplay when played correctly. It's the same problem the assassins that had silences on their kit had before they got their silences removed. They had to have their damage constantly hit because the opponent couldn't react to the silence at all. This is why Talon's E got nerfed, Kassadin Q got changed, LB got changed, HOWEVER With the exception of Talon, After these champs got their Silences removed, which removed a large portion of the lack of counterplay, LB and Kassadin saw buffs to their damage, or their utility because there were openings in which the opponents could react.

Veigar's Stun currently does not provide any reactionary counterplay which Riot Favors. Therefore, because of the inherent strength of Veigars E, Riot could not do large damage or utility buffs to Veigar's kit, because if they got buffed, the very nature of Veigar's kit would make him gamebreakingly Overpowered, since he'd have the tools to survive early, farm up AP with his Q easily, lock people down that tried to engage on him and nuke them.

Riot doesn't have the tools to have strong point and click CC in the game, and thus Point and click abilities can be strong, but if they have any form of hard CC on them, they WILL Get nerfed, That's why Rammus's taunt and Fiddles's fear both got nerfed from 3 seconds to 2.25 seconds, because point and click CC can't be countered, especially if there's no cast time, or animation to give the player warning that the spell is coming. It's the reason Soraka's Infuse got scratched from the kit, because point and click CC with no warning isn't very fair.

It's also the reason Riot has neglected to nerf Morgana's Q in the past 4 years, because it's a largely telegraphed slow moving skill shot. Thus, it allows counterplay by the opponent.

I'm not saying Point and click need to be weak, but when a spell is effectively point and click CC without any warning or ability to react, Riot will either 1)Nerf it or 2) Rework it

Annie is going to be underfire eventually because her ult has no warning that it's coming out, and with a flash ult stun, she can delete people without much issue, doesn't matter that she's relatively short range, flash ult to a 1.5 second stun provides a long enough window that Annie can delete her target without having to worry about being retaliated on because it's not teletgraphed in any way shape or form. The easiest fix to this would simply make Annie actually toss Tibbers in a skill shot, this gives players an opportunity to react, and would allow riot to give her longer range on her ult. However, because her combo is low broadcast low counterplay, Annie's damage has to be kept on the lower end of things because if she get's too strong, she becomes just too strong a pick and would end up getting nerfed. In fact, the Lack of counterplay on Annie's Ult stun combo is the reason she got her stun length changed at early levels and her damage shifted from base damages to scalings back in season 4.

Ale non è male1 votes

Veigar got big mana buffs in those season 2 changes, eh. There is not the will to keep him purposedly weak, as he has his own stacking mechanism that gates his power and allow only the very good Veigar mains to unleash his power Veigar problem is that W is too dependent on hitting the stun, and since good players can avoid the stun, he is left without 1 and 1/2 abilities, and the 2 remaining abilities are point and click abilities with low counterplay for enemies if veigar is in range ot hit, and for veigar himself if he can't get in the short range to hit them without die.....it is surely NOT the same problem of the assassins with silence not the freaking problem

It's weird to mention Fiddle and Rammus nerf as they could be proofs of anything, 3 seconds hard CC is a lot, especially on a point and click, this just is in the same boat of all the overpowered abilities that have been nerfed from the first days of Lol till now. And Morgana Q has not been nerfed because it is needed to allow Morgana to go miv, reason why they nerfed hard the other thing peculiar to Morgana support, namely the Black Shield

You still don't consider that Annie needs to get all-in to get that resutl with the ulti most of the time, so it is perfectly fine to get an high reward on high risk play, because if the support can save Annie's target than Annie is at very high risk, and it's enough a Janna or Soraka good play to save the ally. And, No one would like Annie having longer range on ulti, really. Stun + a monster that deal tons of damage thrown on you from long range distance? This is no freaking way healther than forcing Annie to flash + ulti to get the same result, as with the change she would have as much power as the acual ulti without having her actual downside to not being able to do these long range stuns when Flash is on cooldown (and spells management is an important thing to consider). As you said, Annie ult was yet rivisted, and she didn't get only nerf as she got late game buffs thanks to the lower CD and damage shifted on scalings. The goal of those changes was to limit Annie power in laning phase once she hit 6, but they didn't change the mechanic when they ahd the possibility to do it so, so i don't see why they should do it now

CrazedPorcupine1 votes

The fact is, Veigar's Stun was essentially a 2.5 second stun that had no warning. A flash Annie ult is the same thing, you get no warning that it's coming. Riot hates those abilities.

They gave annie a small buff because of how she built DFG to basically guarantee that her targets would have no chance of retaliation. They removed DFG, so they made a way for Annie to use tibbers, by helping her keep tibbers in range of targets that run from her.

The problem with Annie's All in, is that if you SURVIVE, you're generally so low that if you try to stay, she can zone and pressure you from range because of her point and click Q. You literally have to flash AWAY from annie as SOON as she flashes in, and since that's next to impossible, Annie's All in is obsurdly OP. Hell, she doesn't even really need flash to go all in because if her team has any other form of initiation, she can just run in and ult.

Annie's gameplay has a severe lack of counterplay, and riot will eventually change Annie. Viegar's point and click Q was turned into a skill shot, so they can easily do the same thing to Annie Q. As for turning her ult into an AoE throw nuke, they can do that too, they did it with Zilean bomb.

Riot prefers broadcast abilities and Delayed AoE over instant drop AoE abilities. And those instant drop AoE abilities are slowly getting removed, or have their damage so low that it's not really significant. (Soraka E) where as, the delayed AoE abilities are way more powerful, (Soraka Q, Swain's Nevermove, Veigar W (Which is arguably the most powerful Delayed AoE damage spell in the game since it has like a 300 base damage and 1.0 AP ratio)).

Ale non è male1 votes

Annie changes happened waaaay before DFG removal. Riot problem with Annie was that she wasdominating too much in lane with very low CD rechargeable stun and with a too powerful Tibbers ulti at level 6 as support when not building AP, and that's why they also shifted all her damage towards AP scaling reducing base damage, since Annie support has to delay building AP to get Sightsone for vision, and the buff given to Tibbers CD was because Annie in late game has yet range as big weakness and she needs to have more often the possibility to stun since enemies can survive easier when getting the full build

So this "no warning" thing is a pointless argument. Whoever face Veigar knows that they could choose if get rooted by standing still in his E and keeping to AA and using abilities which don't force movement or move to eat the stun as soon as they can and run away. Annie enemies knows that they have to keep the distance or get a Banshee or a magic shied( item 3156 for AD champs) to avoid being bursted down and react

Rior can do a lot of things, but touch things which are not broken (cause you know, Annie is now viable but can be countered both on sup and mid lane) is generally not a good idea. What riot like and do not like is clear, they don't like "boring" spells. That's why they nerfed to hell Taric waiting for a rework and changed Raka old kit that basically was "you either get in range and simply click or you are out and you are useless" What is broken is Veigar W, because it is too unreliable and force him to go mainly with his point and click abilities and don't reward enemies that dodge it because they can still be 100-0ed by Q+R if they are AP champs.

Simsala Grimm1 votes

"League is well known for it's use of skill shots" as in having your damage rely on landing skillshots is literally the worst thing that can happen to a champion. Seriously, despite you saying that skillshots should deal more damage than their point and click counterparts the situation is completely different. Targeted abilities usually have lower cooldowns, and almost always deal more damage. Ahri lands her E + Q combo on you and does 1/4 of your HP which you could have easily dodged, Anivia uses her R for a split second then throws her E and does half of your HP, good luck dodging that. Riot loves targeted abilities and hates skillshots, and you know what else they love? Right clicking, that's right, the highest source of damage in the game is the measly press of a button, Critical Strike is the most cancerous shit Riot refuses to get rid of, and in fact, they also added more items compared to its papa (DOTA had one single item that gave you crit chance: Daedalus, and true, it stacked if you bought more than one of those but nobody did that because crit was balanced in that game). Right clicking would be kind of ok without Crit, but thanks to Crit chance right clicking is pure cancer, not only does it not cost anything, it is also ranged, it cannot be dodged, it has literally no cooldown and its damage cannot be reliably calculated to see if you are gonna live in an encounter or not, the only time when you can reliably tell how much damage you are gonna get from an ADC is when it completed its 2 crit items and the result of your quick maths is "Time to get melted". Riot ignores the elephant in the room, and perhaps to most people it is fine since they either play champions that can reliably deal sufficient damage through targeted abilities or they themselves are the ADC players. But for me, as a guy that plays mainly skillshot reliant champions this is a joke, when a Tristana jumps next to Aurelion Sol and her right clicking deals more damage because my stars don't spin fast enough to out dps her all I can think of is "Uninstall".

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