Scumbag freelo champions....

Eedat·Mar 9, 2015·8 votes·1,860 views

http://i.imgur.com/V609zkJ.jpg

....that actually aren't that good

52 Comments

DarthSpectrumMar 9, 20156 votes

This guy gets it.

These "Freelo" champions aren't actually good, just very annoying to lane against. In order to be freelo, a champion must have 50%+ winrate regardless of popularity.

Fizz is not FishMar 9, 20153 votes

look at 5.2 ahri

ProfDrDeathMar 9, 20151 votes

57% winrate. The horrors...ban ahri or I leave.

AbyssphereMar 9, 20156 votes

My thoughts:

Agreed that those champs aren't freelo. People don't know what it is. It might look easy to win with LeBlanc and co but as irritating (and strong, wouldn't get used in the LCS otherwise) as they are, they're simply not guaranteed wins and you're right, you'd have an easier time winning with Malzahar or Katarina or Jinx right now.

Disagree that popularity doesn't affect win rate, it's just that it's not the sole factor. Looking into the examples - lots of people play Zed without actually trying to learn his mechanics very well and then get destroyed by people who are actually competent with their champ. Lots of people play Jinx and because she's honestly rather easy to play they are much more likely to do well. Popularity definitely affects win rate but it's not the only factor - ease of picking up is another obvious factor in win rates which allows some popular champs to have much higher win rates than others.

KaisadiIIaMar 9, 20151 votes

Also you are forgetting all those people who are first pick and instalock LeBlanc (i.e.), then you just have to pick a counter (Galio, i.e.) and you win the lane easily. No kills on LeBlanc = 5v4.

JamareeMar 9, 20154 votes

Honestly, you have a better chance with Malzahar, Fiora, and Sejunai being on your team then any of the popular champions right now.

KhimeraMar 9, 20154 votes

Jinx and Ahri are popular as hell and still have high win rates. People need to stop crying over a blind monk and a bunny from the shadow isles and learn every champ has their strengths and weaknesses.

mjack33Mar 9, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Jinx and Ahri are popular as hell and still have high win rates. People need to stop crying over a blind monk and a bunny from the shadow isles and learn every champ has their strengths and weaknesses.

Jinx and Ahri are very easy to play.

KhimeraMar 9, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Jinx and Ahri are very easy to play.

Yes champions with half their kits being skillshots are "very easy" to play

mjack33Mar 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yes champions with half their kits being skillshots are "very easy" to play

....... Yeah. If you can't hit a skillshot, you are bad at the game and we aren't balancing around you. Sorry.

Ahri has 2 straight-line skillshots, a dash, and a press and forget proximity ability. Simplest freaking kit in the world. There ain't no fancy combos there to confuse you, or anything that takes particular skill to pull off.

Jinx has 3 skillshots and a toggle on her auto attacks. Again, assuming you have the bare minimum skill required for your opinion to be of any worth when it comes to balance, one of the simplest kits a champion can have.

Meanwhile, while I consider the bar it sets to still be quite low, Kalista's passive actually requires a minimal level of micromanagement that might be difficult for some players.

DropFillMar 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yes champions with half their kits being skillshots are "very easy" to play

More than champions whose kit is all point and click but have clear counters, such as fiora.

KaisadiIIaMar 9, 20151 votes

Jinx is a pretty easy champion if you play marksmen often, one or two games and you get the basics. Ahri just has a "Press Q to escape" mechanic that allows her to forgive every mistake she makes, so she just has to keep herself alive until she has an opportunity to kill someone. Lee Sin has no real weaknesses, his early game is abusive (admittedly by RIOT) and, even if he's not OP, he's a extremely annoying champion to play against. Kalista is just the worst designed champion ever along with Darius, playing against her is just suffering for 30 minutes if the Kalista player can actually play her (especially if you are played a melee or skillshot-based ranged: basically everyone not called Lissandra).

Seth LightheartMar 9, 20153 votes

Don't listen to lol stats. The more popular a champ gets usually the lower their win-rate goes. And vice versa.

JamareeMar 9, 20156 votes

True, and because of that, you are more likely to get someone who plays the champion because they are OP and thus not know what they are doing, then someone who mained them before the buffs so knows what they are capable of.

Seth LightheartMar 9, 20154 votes

Exactly. It is better to have an Urgot main on your team (who has 1000 games in) vs a first time jinx.

(Which a lot of people here will most likely not get)

EedatMar 9, 20158 votes

The more popular a champ gets usually the lower their win-rate goes.

except it doesnt

http://i.imgur.com/EPS2iX6.jpg

Seth LightheartMar 9, 20153 votes

Look at the stats again. You sorted by popularity, now sort by win rate.

EedatMar 9, 20159 votes

Your argument is that more popular champions have lower win rates. The picture shows that that is 100% false

Seth LightheartMar 9, 20152 votes

No. My argument is, "stats are flawed" "The more popular a champ gets usually the lower their win-rate goes" not... ZOMG! TH3SE CHAMPS WILL WIN YOU THE G7ME!

Read what I say before you try to attack.

Edit. And look... the champ with the highest win rate is Heimerdinger 55.2% played 4.35% of the time.

EedatMar 9, 20154 votes

The more popular a champ gets usually the lower their win-rate goes

I am utterly confused. You say popularity makes win rates go down, so I post a picture showing thats false and there is no strong correlation between the two. Then you make the same argument again. Wut?

Seth LightheartMar 9, 20152 votes

sigh No, you don't get it.

This is my last try. Think of logically it. People start thinking X champion is strong. Ok? What will happen? Everyone will play them! The vast majority of people who jump into games with that champion will not be as good as mains and thus will drag down that champions stats.

Then look at another champion, Heimerdinger for example. Only a person who loves Heim will play him and will most likely master him. Thus boosting the champion's stats.

P.S. All you did was post a picture of stats sorted by popularity. We are talking about is win rate, you want to sort by win rate then show me all the champions that are popular that are on top of it. Not the other way around.

You are falsely trying to prove your theory.

EedatMar 9, 20153 votes

Jesus christ dude. OK.

Your argument is that high pick rate means lower win rates My argument is that pick rates have nothing to do with win rates

The facts: Some champs with high pick rates do well Some champs with low pick rates do well Some champs with high pick rates do mediocre Some champs with low pick rates do mediocre Some champs with high pick rates do bad Some champs with low pick rates do bad

The evidence supports that pick rate and win rate are not correlated, which is exactly what I'm arguing. Using your logic, Urgot should be the strongest champion in the game because his pick rate is 0.45%? Because the 0.45% who do play him really know what they're doing on him? Logic.

Seth LightheartMar 9, 20151 votes

No, that isn't what I am saying in the least. I'm done, this isn't worth my time.

EedatMar 9, 20153 votes

It is better to have an Urgot main on your team (who has 1000 games in) vs a first time jinx.

Thats exactly what your argument it and it makes absolutely no sense

DroogzyMar 9, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Seth Lightheart,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EVm86E8X,comment-id=000100010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-09T14:12:30.755+0000)

No, that isn't what I am saying in the least. I'm done, this isn't worth my time.

Actually, reading through the whole thing, that's exactly what you're saying.

dunder killMar 9, 20155 votes

That nice. Katarina has a 12.7% pick rate and has a 54.36 win rate. Jinx has a 30.54% pick rate and 53.43% win rate. If popular champs have low winrates, then how are these very popular champs doing so well? You're actually making your own argument look worse lol

Seth LightheartMar 9, 20151 votes

Read what I said again. This is starting to get annoying.

aaronconlinMar 9, 20152 votes

All of them are reading exactly what you're arguing and showing how your argument is false yet you continue to say they're not reading it.. Lol

mjack33Mar 9, 20153 votes

All of those stats are meaningless. You do not have them split up by rank, number of games played, difficulty of use, etc. There are A LOT more factors than popularity and win rate that go into how good a champ is, and without a lot of those factors being known win rates are meaningless....... for good or bad.

RrettMar 9, 20152 votes

Kalista - 47 diamond

LeeSin - 47 diamond

Leblanc - 49 diamond

Zed - 45 Diamond

RedCycloneMar 9, 20151 votes

These champions are first pick champions these champions get played ALL THE FUCKING TIME

both teams will have 2 of these champions or will instalock them thinking they are hot shit

it's no wonder why they are all under 50% winrate even in diamond

RrettMar 9, 20151 votes

Surprisingly they all have deficits which allows you to win the game against them, and people just play against them so many times they know exactly what to do against them.

They're gated soley by the fact they as a whole can only play so well. They might all very well be OP, but they are still going to bottleneck at their skill level regardless of their champion.

These champions are not strong enough to boost you above your actual skill like some others are. Post rework eve, Kayle pre nerf, Syndra, those champions were enough to boost you above your skill, the ones mentioned above are not.

Nid is probably an example of people attaining higher ranks than their actual skill solely because of the champion.

mjack33Mar 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

- 47 diamond

- 47 diamond

- 49 diamond

- 45 Diamond

Good start. We've still left out pick frequency and how playing against something a lot inflates your win rate against it.

Drunk RummateMar 9, 20153 votes

Azir top + Kassadin mid + Veigar support

get the freelo while it's hot boys

EedatMar 9, 20152 votes

Don't forget Kalista ADC and Zac Jungle

KaisadiIIaMar 9, 20153 votes

Another useless post talking about win rate. Soooooooo interesting...

EedatMar 9, 20153 votes

Another useless post trying to invalidate others yet contributing absolutely nothing to the conversation. Soooooooo interesting...

KaisadiIIaMar 9, 20151 votes

A lot of people has explained you how to understand win rate (and even RIOT agrees with what they told you), but you keep saying "GRAVES HIGH PICK RATE HIGH WIN RATE SO NOTHING MATTERS".

EedatMar 9, 20152 votes

Actually, my exact argument is that there's no correlation between win rate and pick rate

KaisadiIIaMar 9, 20151 votes

Nope. "There is no correlation between win rate and pick rate" is not an argument but an affirmation, the argument is what proves your affirmation, and what I meant is that you keep ignoring arguments that prove otherwise.

Romans VI XXIIIMar 9, 20152 votes

Incorrect, all 4 of the champs you pointed out have a very high popularity rate compared to most champions and a slight learning curve, this skews the win rate of the champion.

EedatMar 9, 20154 votes

apparently you didnt see this above

http://i.imgur.com/EPS2iX6.jpg

popularity doesn't lower win rates

Romans VI XXIIIMar 9, 20151 votes

apparently you cant read,

very high popularity rate compared to most champions and a slight learning curve

BUT THAT DOES! specially when combined with the popularity. Where as the 2 top champs in popularity (jinx and graves) are very easy to learn compared to lee, zed, kalista, and LB

ALSO, out of these 6 champions which ones are banned? not jinx or graves I can assure you of that. But lee, LB, kalista, and zed are all banned occasionally, THUS also SKEWING the results.

Troy242621Mar 9, 20152 votes

I mean, you picked a clay pigeon to attack. Of course you will win that argument. No reasonable person who has a clue about the game would call any champion "Freelo," because no champion is so overpowered that it means more than skill. Even if such a champion existed, you wouldn't always get it first AND it would almost certainly be permabanned.

Now that that's out of the way, some of these are genuinely overpowered, some simply have abysmal designs. I'll get downvoted for this, but LeBlanc's concept simply shouldn't exist. MASSIVE mobility, CC and .6 second combo time megabursting? I don't care if she's overpowered or not, that is a silly design.

The last thing I'd like to point out is that people frequently confuse design and balance, and therefore call poorly designed champions overpowered. I don't think they should be nerfed, I think they need to be reworked. That kind of concept shouldn't be salvaged. She should have a specialty and stick to it, for example.

Let the down voting commence.

RaptameiMar 9, 20151 votes

If tons of idiots play a champ, then that only increases your chance that the opponent playing him is an idiot.

soulbanana8Mar 9, 20151 votes

Champs are only really OP if their winrate is hovering at 50+% and if their popularity is high. See patch 4.2-4.11 Ziggs and patch 4.2-4.11 Kayle for details. They had 53+% winrate and were in the majority of games at the time.

KaisadiIIaMar 9, 20151 votes

Katarina e.e

SIaytonMar 9, 20151 votes

All the champs people complain about are great 1v1 and really annoying to deal with but not as threatening as others in team fights. No one really cares about Malphite but I can't count how many games have been won off a Malphite R by itself. Meanwhile someone gets juiced by Zed laning and screams OP, when he's really not.

I don't think Kalista is OP at all either. She gets out damaged by a lot of ADCs and has weak trades. Anyone that can dive her completely destroys her passive so GL against a Yi / Irelia / Fizz, etc etc.

RrettMar 9, 20151 votes

Lee sin: I've never, Ever had a problem playing against him and I've never understood the hate against him. The last time I had problems with him was like 4 years ago.

Zed is just annoying. While veigar was still not trash I almost never lost to zed, never understood the hate that much, but seeing him every game is annoying.

Kalista wasn't really a problem while playing pre 'balance' veigar either, but she lacks counterplay so far up her shitter it's crazy.

LB is another case of just a toxic champion no one likes playing against. Less counterplay than kalista, just stupid annoying.