Tomorrow's AP item rework, and Karthus: a Discussion

D2Vincent··8 votes·5,412 views

So tomorrow, we're due to get a bit of an AP item overhaul that includes:

  • Archangel's becoming a potential 1st item Rush item
  • Liandry's becoming the official AP tank-buster item
  • Morello becoming the item against Squishies/Healing
  • Luden's becoming more appealing to most mages
  • GLP no longer being a sustain item due to the loss of Catalyst
  • A new item designed specifically toward spell-casters (Spellbinder)
  • The return of Twin Shadows

among other changes that include Deathcap getting more AP Amp and building out of 2 NLR now, as well as an AP buff to Rylai's and a MPen nerf to Void Staff, but what I want to talk about is how all these changes will affect my main mage, Karthus.

for a bit of reference, I'm going to include a video from /R/Karthusmains owner and streamer, Kartharsus (AKA known as Deus-Ex-Lacrymae on Reddit) where he discusses the new AP items, and how they affect Karthus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThTFRR6r3bk

One important takeaway that I got from the video is how these new items will potentially change which of Karthus's preferred playstyles will be more prevalent, between his Sustain playstyle that focuses on him surviving in the fights before he dies to maximize his Q and E damage, and his Suicide playstyle which puts more of his power into his passive and ult damage.


#Sustain Karthus VS Suicide Karthus

As stated in the previous statement, the main difference between Karthus's 2 preferred styles of play is that while sustain mode allows you to survive longer to apply more damage via Q and E, whereas Suicide mode means you're sacrificing yourself for the chance to be able to front-load all your damage into your ultimate without any interruption, and supposedly for the most part, without much consequence. (I say supposedly, because things like stopwatch, and certain invulnerability/untargetable things exist lol) Now, I've always thought Karthus's Sustain playstyle was always more healthy for gameplay, because of how volatile and/or Feast/Famine Suicide Karthus can get, where if you're not able to use it to the best of your ability, you're essentially Int-Feeding at that point because with the current state of the game, it's rather easy to get blown up by assassins and champions like Vayne that exist.

The question now becomes, with the removal of Catalyst from GLP, and the fact that most of the other items will be more beneficiary to a Suicide Karthus playstyle will become more prevalent than items like RoA and Abyssal mask (which is good against AP matchups and tanks who don't build MR btw), and considering this new item which I'm going to predict will become a GODSEND on Karthus (seriously, after tomorrow, try going Predator w/ ingenious hunter with sorc > manaflow + Celerity/transcendence, then get Spellbinder, sorc shoes w/ predator, and if you're feeling ballsy, Twin Shadows or Righteous Glory for the SUPER SPEEDY NASKARTHUS WHEEEEEEEEEEEE lol) which will promote more of a Glass Cannon/Suicide playstlye, will Karthus's Sustain playstyle be able to keep up with this more powerful way of playing? Also, if Riot does want to promote this Higher Risk/ Higher Reward playstlye, should they try to tweak anything in Karthus's kit that allows him to either A. give him a bit more utility in his passive, like say allow him to use non-trinket items whilst in passive, or have certain item effects continue into his passive? (supposedly, Spellbinder's active effects wears off when Karthus enters passive)


#Other Mages vs Karthus

Besides all this, my other question is: Will Karthus keep up with other mages who'll be able to use these items, and how powerful will he be compared to other mages? Will Karthus be able to have a role as a champion that no other mage can do better than he can? My hope for Karthus is that he retains his role as the Premier DPS Hypercarry with the Global Nuke that no other mage can compare to in terms of pure Magic Damage.


#The TL:DR

Will these new Items make Karthus OP? Which Playstyle will be the best suited for him once these items hit? Will he be able to keep up in terms of power opposed to other mages similar to him?

I'm just asking since Karthus is one of the more Unpopular champions among the mages, and I'm just hoping he'll be able to keep up. If not, what would riot try to buff for Karthus? I've heard a Maple Nectar mention that perhaps the team might look at his Skill-Cap/Skill-expression in the future, but with these new AP items, things could change, so I don't know at this point. Discussion is greatly appreciated, and if a Rioter wants to chime in, that'd be kinda cool :P

For those who managed to read this far, here's a video of Cloud 9's BunnyFuFuu playing Predator Karthus on PBE which might put some insight for Karthus with the new items (though maybe take it with a grain of salt, since he was being assisted by Baron/Elder Drake as well as Zilean, Nunu, and Sivir). Have a great day, and I'll see Y'all later! :P

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGYlt0UQtmA

18 Comments

MrPhamtom6 votes

I actually forgot karthus existed in this game

Azadethe3 votes

Never use Funnyfoo as a source of concern. He specializes in creating funny builds with no real in game functionality in environments where opponents are much worse than him.

The Predator/ Spellbinder etc build is going to get him killed in ranked games where he doesn't have a team passively setting up a situation for him.

His opponents didn't even build mag resist.

things to consider:

item 3116 is getting a 15 AP buff. If you put that with Liandra's + Spellbinder on a regular build, the old Karthus builds are still pretty much meta. In ranked, Predator is a risky rune because it can be disrupted, and it's just not up enough to be scary.

He won't build Morellonomicon anymore either, so it's likely he will not be able to stop people from healing out of his ult.

P.S. I don't anticipate any death of RoA Karthus either, because he has one of the best ways to abuse its heal, which will do more than Ravenous hunter (and they stack). RoA is just about the only item that still has Eternity, so it's going to be used.

D2Vincent1 votes

I suppose those are all great points, although I do have to disagree on the minor thing being that Catalyst's eternity passive works better than Ravenous Hunter, since I've seen the health regen from both, and I notice a larger increase in health from Ravenous than from Catalyst. Just my observation though, but if anyone feels like doing any math that'd be cool :P

My only issue is the fact that since GLP is losing catalyst, I feel like I'm losing a bit more variety in my choice of Catalyst options if I am going Sustain Karthus. I'd often use GLP if I can't afford to wait as long for RoA for all the stats, and I'd find it to be a better alternate to Rylai's most of the time anyway. Losing a sustain item, which otherwise would force me to use 2 not as efficient items feels bad to me :/

Azadethe1 votes

I was saying I like BOTH Catalyst and Ravenous, There's no reason you can't have both. Ravenous alone won't offer enough sustain to really be considered a sustain package.

T4underbolt3 votes

First of all riot should.give him back the slow on W. He was nerfed for completely no reason at the beginning of season 6. He wasn't even strong. They just randomly nerfed the W slow making most of it disappear after first 2 seconds.

Plus maybe its time to fix the bug with karthus q that halves his DPS and was here since like S5.

D2Vincent1 votes

Yeah, totally agree on the W nerf revert, especially now that DFT is gone and the Slow on Rylai's is abysmal, even for Karthus.

As for the bug, I can't say I've ever noticed it myself, so I'm not sure what to say about that one.

T4underbolt1 votes

I don't remember which patch it was but it happened close to visual update of karthus or in that patch exactly. I played karthus for loooooooooooooong time. It was first champion I bought after Ashe (my friend was sitting beside and told me: dude he has global ultimate, buy him and wreck games" :P). I remember very well how his Q used to be casted. Basically at some point his Q cooldown started to be counted from 2 sec instead of 1. Karthus cooldown of Q is and always was 2 sec but for some reason it wasn't anymore. Sometimes it fixed itself after death and was 1 sec again for few minutes. I noticed huge clunkyness in his Q because I was used to 1 sec cooldown which made me miss many Q's. I still didn't get used to this, but lately there was some patch to skill buffering which helped a bit but only a bit. The default state I remember was much better and was making using Q smoothly.

I did report this bug on boards and through tickets many times and it still isn't fixed and makes karthus Q clunky and it has 2 sec cooldown instead of 1.

Poske1 votes

His build wont work after gold2 + above

I was also screaming the lack of voidstaff but whatever

Pierce The Veal1 votes

A little off topic but...

Who thinks spellbinder is going to be broken as fuck? It gives 100 AP, 10% ms, but with its active it gains another 100-200 AP and 30-60% ms. 4 seconds is plenty for an assassin (or rather, Syndra/Annie/Orianna) to use dat 300 AP on one item to nuke someone to high heaven.

SweedishGunner1 votes

My main boi Viktor is frothing at the mouth.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

Heh.

D2Vincent1 votes

I guess the question here is, of the champions who can use it, which can use it most efficiently? since it charges based on Ally or Enemy charges, it could fully charge quickly (like say, Karthus Q), or you might need a bit more setup before buying (like getting max CDR first)

Pierce The Veal1 votes

Yeah. I guess.

I’d say assassins and people who spam.

Sohleks1 votes

Rylias is core to me on Karthus even " underpowered"

Much higher reliability on Q translates to higher dmg and better dueling and utility as a ghost in the middle of a fight

And if tear builds into a 20% cdr item now the two item core is a no brainers. The other morello flavors are probably more powerful though, which if GLP is satisfactory can challenge my rylias dependence. Seems doubtful tho.

D2Vincent1 votes

yeah, I sometimes use Rylai's but usually only as a 3rd-4th item if I really need to deal with super mobility. Most of the other guys in the Karthus Mains Discord say it's just not worth it anymore, but after the patch, it will be at least somewhat better to buy.

Mimr1 votes

Well... ain't no patch here yet xD

D2Vincent1 votes

yeah, I didn't realize that chinese new year pushed everything back a day lol (apparently it was monday?)

Jerry SeinfeId1 votes

I don't think ROA will be gone completely, i play karthus top so i like getting some HP to be beefy. idk about the liandry changes for karthus, i don't think it's gonna be any better/worse.

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