@Meddler: So Garen is scheduled for a gameplay update

Critmaster Garen · 2015-07-31T05:52:45.000Z

please be gentle. i dont think he needs more than minor changes. we also dont know how the fighter item changes that are supposed to hit the pbe in a couple weeks will affect him. i see him generally as a pretty well balance champion. clear strengths, and clear weaknesses. hes overall not in a terrible spot right now. his lategame still feels like its lacking, but that might be fixed with fiddling with his scalings and some minor tweaks. overall a couple pointers: critical strike as a stat interacts badly with his q. he doesnt have many options to itemize into it, so youre mostly dependent on RNGesus to grant you that crit on decisive strike. its a similar problem with the old gangplank where to crit or not to crit makes a large difference for the outcome of a fight and his overall effectiveness. this could be fixed by flattening out the crit scaling on his spells the same way with what you did with ashe, and making the stat more reliable. critical strikes only apply partially to his abilities, so it doesnt feel fully rewarding to itemize into it if you do. either an increase on the crit scaling would be a nice idea as it mostly affects his lategame. or cause critical strikes to deal the same damage, but apply the bonus damgage somehow as a separate damage instance. this means, more crits = faster cleaver stacks. so even just having a ghostblade has some reliable effect on his spin. the self slow on his spin that you put into place was supposed to be a mechanic for the early lane phase, to make it not quite as easy for garen to kite his opponent through minions or chase him down this way. however, it screws him over through the entire game. it happens too often, that you scratch a jungle monster, or minion in a teamfight down the lane, and completely lose your ability to stick to your intended target. it would be nice if there was a way to lose the self slow past the lane phase. someone brought up the idea to give him the ability to ult large and epic jungle monsters (tops 1k damage like similar abilities) to add some team utility to the champion without directly affecting his power in terms of being able to fight another champion. it would give a team more or a reason to want a garen with them in the game. those are just some thoughts i gathered from playing and discussing the champion. imo a larger rework is not needed. for whatever that counts. in case anyone wondered what im talking about. hes officially next on the list. https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/202294884-Champion-Update-Schedule

Critmaster GarenJul 31, 20153 votes

{quoted}

We'll be talking about Garen in detail soonish, few initial comments in the meantime though:

Garen's probably the lowest scope project on that list, with the addition of a new mechanic to his kit and some noticeable power curve tuning as key elements for him. Somewhat larger gameplay changes than MF, significantly smaller than GP.

Changes to Garen are very much being developed with the item changes in mind.

Very with you on the value of distinct benefits for bringing a particular champion to a team. We've got something else in mind for Garen though that doesn't overlap with other objective controllers (ult on monsters would give a very Cho/Nunu sort of feel).

a new mechanic related to teamplay. i got nothing.

is this similar to what you did with fiora? a teamwide effect when he hits the execute?

MetalGearTeemuJul 31, 20152 votes

Killing an enemy hero with Demacian Justice now causes all team member within X distance to Spin2Win for 3 seconds.

Sightless66Jul 31, 20154 votes

Very glad to hear about Garen. Would be very interested in hearing a bit more about the other reworks too. What do the other champion reworks look like? How would you describe the scopes of the Morde and Skarner reworks (particularly the Skarner one)? I don't think there has been any real discussion of potential Skarner changes, and I've got a ton of questions to ask.

Do you still intend to keep him as a sheen-based bruiser/tank?
Is there something on his current kit that we should expect him to lose?
Is he going to get some way to respond to the decently large number of champions who are currently very hard for him to deal with?
Are stronger mobility or different types of CC being added to his kit?
Is there some new kind of mechanic we should be looking forward to?
Is this a bunch of questions being asked too early in the development process to be reasonably answered?

Looking forward to this one a lot. Only happy places for him to go from here.

KoboldJul 31, 20153 votes

What I find interesting is he is on the rework list again so soon after his last one (Early 2014). I am hoping they do a much better job on him this time than last as the last was had huge problems with communication. I personally hope he keeps his power as a Pick (off) champion with his ultimate.

The problems with Skarner (from what I have seen, and how bad I am at him) is that he is a snowball tank/bruiser, wherein he can't do well unless he is ahead or his team is ahead. When behind he doesn't have the survivability that other tanks seem to have in comparison and his core items cost a decent amount to acquire compared to others. Would you say this is relatively accurate?

Critmaster GarenJul 31, 20152 votes

{quoted}

What I find interesting is he is on the rework list again so soon after his last one (Early 2014). I am hoping they do a much better job on him this time than last as the last was had huge problems with communication. I personally hope he keeps his power as a Pick (off) champion with his ultimate.

The problems with Skarner (from what I have seen, and how bad I am at him) is that he is a snowball tank/bruiser, wherein he can't do well unless he is ahead or his team is ahead. When behind he doesn't have the survivability that other tanks seem to have in comparison and his core items cost a decent amount to acquire compared to others. Would you say this is relatively accurate?

the 2014 was a visual update. the last bigger gameplay update was 3 years ago.

edit.: wait, no. that was 2013. you talking about skarner in the first paragraph?

Sightless66Jul 31, 20152 votes

The snowball element is a pretty significant part of his problem. He's great when he can afford to put gold into stat-inefficient items like Righteous Glory and he gets plenty of opportunities to initiate. He's not so good when he's behind and has to do his job while going straight for the fighting items that don't actually help him initiate, because his kit does not give him ample to reliably initiate past the laning phase without some amount of item assistance. This does tie in with the cost of his core items. He's extremely reliant on Sheen and some resistances-based tank stats, but that does cost a lot to build (particularly triforce). Unless he's ahead enough to give up on fighting potential, he has to buy triforce and a strong resistances item, putting off the utility items he so desperately needs.

I'd add to this that the ease with which he is countered is also a problem worth fixing. He just doesn't have any mechanisms to respond to some of the long-ranged or defensively oriented champions. I get that he's supposed to be weak to someone who can outrange him and/or lock him down while he's getting in, but his problems go beyond being weak. He can ust feel completely and utterly useless in those situations.

KoboldAug 1, 20151 votes

Not sure why you were downvoted, so I upvoted you.

You hit most of the points spot on. He seems to me to be a very mid game oriented champion (LVL 6-11). But has an added problem of being a feast or famine style champ, wherein to be useful during that mid game he must be fed or ahead in some way or he won't have any impact there (like lee sin but requires more items and has a later spike). He also has the problem of late game he falls off hard without allied support with cc or buffs to him in order to get to the target to be a pick champion. In this way he seems like a pub stomp champion where he is best used against a disorganized team to make the most out of his ultimate.

Going into details about his kit, his abilities that grant movement speed are mediocre as they can all be stopped rather easily either by taking down his shield or by cc'ing him/Flashing. Add to that his slow is not very potent for him to close with he has a hard time reaching the target. Then there is his passive which in concept is cool but with his other problems he can't use it very well unless dueling.

Critmaster GarenAug 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Not sure why you were downvoted, so I upvoted you.

You hit most of the points spot on. He seems to me to be a very mid game oriented champion (LVL 6-11). But has an added problem of being a feast or famine style champ, wherein to be useful during that mid game he must be fed or ahead in some way or he won't have any impact there (like lee sin but requires more items and has a later spike). He also has the problem of late game he falls off hard without allied support with cc or buffs to him in order to get to the target to be a pick champion. In this way he seems like a pub stomp champion where he is best used against a disorganized team to make the most out of his ultimate.

Going into details about his kit, his abilities that grant movement speed are mediocre as they can all be stopped rather easily either by taking down his shield or by cc'ing him/Flashing. Add to that his slow is not very potent for him to close with he has a hard time reaching the target. Then there is his passive which in concept is cool but with his other problems he can't use it very well unless dueling.

maybe its because i just build him differently, but he usually starts to really take up steam around level 16, and when he has about 3 items completed with randuins, cleaver and ghostblade.

his main power spike seems to be around 30 to 40 minutes, and he then drastically falls off if the game drags out longer. even though he doesnt fall of so hard that hes useless. the very late feels kinda weak but not terrible.

it feels like full build garen vs full build everyone else feels too weak in damage output or tankyness.

but i think that could be tuned by increasing his crit scaling without actual major changes. the problem is, that while he has crit scaling on his spells, an infinity edge doesnt get him the same powerspike as other champions who would build the item due to how crit only partially applies to the spin.

Sightless66Aug 1, 20151 votes

That post wasn't actually about Garen. That was a Skarner discussion, about how Skarner is in a weird place where he's heavily weighted towards midgame preformance (at least for making picks), but he needs certain stat-inefficient items to preform that job and that can be hell on him if he gets behind. If he needs to buy good fighting items in order to compete, then he can't get the engage and/or peeling items to do his job well.

That's an interesting perspective on Garen, and it does make sense, so that is nice to see. Hadn't thought about it much before.

MaeggesMCJul 31, 20151 votes

poppy garen darius firoa how many more suddenly pre taric reworks are gonna popp up next ? yorick ? lol gg.

Critmaster GarenJul 31, 20152 votes

{quoted}

poppy garen darius firoa how many more suddenly pre taric reworks are gonna popp up next ? yorick ? lol gg.

poppys has been coming for a long time.

Linna ExcelJul 31, 20151 votes

Meddler, can you clear this one thing up for me?

I was playing him in ARAM and after the game was over I noticed he was listed as a fighter, not a tank. The only damage item he gets is Black Cleaver and that's because he benefits from the health and cdr. Is he going to be relabled as a full tank or is he listed as a fighter because you all are expecting him to build more damage than he does?

Calibretto9Jul 31, 20152 votes

Garen is not a tank. If you're building as tank you better be really behind or you're doing yourself a disservice. He does very solid damage and some of the best items on him are Black Cleaver, Infinity Edge, Brutalizer/Youmuu's Ghostblade and Last Whisper. For defense, a Sunfire Cape and Spirit Visage will suffice.

21/9/0 Garen with a first item being BC, followed by Sunfire/SV depending on enemy, followed by damage is the way to go.

Tanks have CC and disruption which makes you have to focus or avoid them. Garen has a silence and nothing else, so building full tank means you can just ignore him. Building damage means you have a hard-to-kill destroyer on your hands.

RiotMeddlerAug 1, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EUFeQJKv,comment-id=00030008,timestamp=2015-07-31T17:03:25.642+0000)

Meddler, can you clear this one thing up for me?

I was playing him in ARAM and after the game was over I noticed he was listed as a fighter, not a tank. The only damage item he gets is Black Cleaver and that's because he benefits from the health and cdr. Is he going to be relabled as a full tank or is he listed as a fighter because you all are expecting him to build more damage than he does?

Our approach with the primary tags on each character is generally to reflect what a champion is trying to do in a fight, rather than how they build. Garen's there primarily for damage for example. He does bring a little bit of CC, and he's happy to soak up some damage where he can, but his ideal goal is to spin on someone then ult them for a kill. Tanks by contrast, even if they've got similar builds, tend to be much more focused on setting up the enemy team for others to kill and/or protecting their own team. Lot of disruption basically, most often through CC.

Linna ExcelAug 1, 20151 votes

Okay, thanks for answering. However I'm a little more confused. Isn't the setting up allies and disrupting enemies a support's job? An annie tibers flash or sona's crecendo is something supports do and it definitely disrupts the other team. I wouldn't call sona a tank though.

Is a squishy tank a possibility? Maybe have CC/disruption that scales with AP?

RiotMeddlerAug 1, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EUFeQJKv,comment-id=0003000800010000,timestamp=2015-08-01T00:15:48.268+0000)

Okay, thanks for answering. However I'm a little more confused. Isn't the setting up allies and disrupting enemies a support's job? An annie tibers flash or sona's crecendo is something supports do and it definitely disrupts the other team. I wouldn't call sona a tank though.

Is a squishy tank a possibility? Maybe have CC/disruption that scales with AP?

Yep, supports do the same stuff, just in a more caster like fashion. Tanks and supports (as in support the class, not support the position) are two somewhat different takes on the same concept, with some characters (Thresh or Taric for example) blurring the line between the two.

Penta PenguinAug 1, 20151 votes

You have no idea what you're doing, why was MF's Q tool-tip fucking butchered? Clarity?? Seriously you REMOVED VITAL INFORMATOIN from an ability tooltip

RiotMeddlerAug 1, 20153 votes

I don't have a copy of the game in front of me at the moment, what's missing?

Critmaster GarenAug 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I don't have a copy of the game in front of me at the moment, what's missing?

since the cleaver changes, garen is actually popping up in diamond rated games now and then. something that never happened before. even though with the ap rework, some matchups have become a bit harder again, im sitting here in a spot where i think

do i want these changes? hes not picked in the lcs but seems to do better than ever in solo que past just being a pubstomper.

i cant judge, since i dont know whats going to happen but at the same time im feeling cautious about everything that goes further than number changes or other little tweaks because it could go either way. for adding a new feature to his kit, its likely that he will get cuts somewhere else. soo... yea. sitting at the edge of my seat until we know more.

StexeAug 4, 20151 votes

{quoted}

We'll be talking about Garen in detail soonish, few initial comments in the meantime though:

Garen's probably the lowest scope project on that list, with the addition of a new mechanic to his kit and some noticeable power curve tuning as key elements for him. Somewhat larger gameplay changes than MF, significantly smaller than GP.

Changes to Garen are very much being developed with the item changes in mind.

Very with you on the value of distinct benefits for bringing a particular champion to a team. We've got something else in mind for Garen though that doesn't overlap with other objective controllers (ult on monsters would give a very Cho/Nunu sort of feel).

So Garen is getting the ability to repair things? You said he is getting a "new mechanic" so...?

/DefinitionOfMechanic