the claim that garen cant be buffed for high ranks without making him op in low ranks is a lie

Critmaster Garen··70 votes·3,757 views

there are plenty small tweaks that could be done that would improve him for mains and experienced players without buffing his numbers or even giving him ability reworks.

  • allow him to cancel his spin after 0.5 seconds instead of locking him into it for a full second

it would allow him to do auto attack into spin/cancel auto attack animation cancel combos for small burst to get enemies into ult range who are close.

also, allowing him to cancel the spin after 1 damage tick helps him with lasthitting under the turret. you only need 1 spin tick + turret shot to get caster minions into cs range early on. the fact that youre forced to have the spin running for a full second can make prepping caster minions awkward, as its easy to accidentally get too much damage on them.

  • have his q animation speed scale up with his base attack speed (his champion level)

so lategame auto attack + q + auto attack combos can be executed quicker, and flash + q plays become less clunky. during the early lane phase the slow animation is fine to give opponents some counterplay. but since his VU, garens q has been rightfully described as "the shittiest auto attack cancel in the game".

  • dont lock him out of his w active, while his q animation is playing.

especially since the timing of his w became more important than ever with the addition of the mini fiora parry. right now you cant activate your w, while garen is stuck in his q animation.

most of these mechanics would help experienced players and mains to perform better with him at higher divisions, and theyre not even known by most players in lower divisions.

62 Comments

BigBonedCartman15 votes

would he still be an useless champ in higher elo after those changed? yes would he still be the trash version of darius? yes

Critmaster Garen31 votes

{quoted}

would he still be an useless champ in higher elo after those changed? yes would he still be the trash version of darius? yes

funny that you say that, because in solo que garen had a higher winrate than darius since the addition of the parry to his w last leason. hes still a better pick than darius right now.

i mean darius is in the shitter, but still.

BigBonedCartman2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ETWXwRGv,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-01-16T18:33:47.589+0000)

funny that you say that, because in solo que garen had a higher winrate than darius since the addition of the parry to his w last leason. hes still a better pick than darius right now.

i mean darius is in the shitter, but still.

darius is probabily weaker cause of his low numbers thx to anime fans complaining him but kit-wise he is still the better version of garen

Critmaster Garen15 votes

{quoted}

darius is probabily weaker cause of his low numbers thx to anime fans complaining him but kit-wise he is still the better version of garen

and those kit imrovements would fix that. maybe not all of his problems, but some of them.

Poske1 votes

No they wouldnt do anything for high elo Dont get me wrong I dont mind the changes might aswell implement them

They just dont do anything except make him feel less clunky

Pika Fox5 votes

Given garen's simple, straight forward kit, having him feel less clunky is a rather large buff relatively speaking, as theres little else that could be done other than straight buffs.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku4 votes

i disagree

Darius Win 49.21% Pick 7.02%

Garen Win 49.55% Pick 4.92%

edit for **** speaking about unreliable source...

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/current/platinum/plus/champion/Darius/ https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/current/platinum/plus/champion/Garen/

Apparently Noob8 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ETWXwRGv,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-01-16T18:20:52.029+0000)

  • dont lock him out of his w active, while his q animation is playing.

So THAT'S what happening. I always die to this and I was wondering why W never activates.

Troll for Trump7 votes

Garen, Darius, and most other Juggernauts can only be buffed for higher elo but not lower elo if you increase skill cap.

Giving him buffs like the ones you proposed will make him stronger in low elo, because they aren't exactly skill-based except for making the last one.

Something skill based would be some sort of reward for properly timing W.

It's hard to implement without reworking the champ.

Critmaster Garen15 votes

{quoted}

Garen, Darius, and most other Juggernauts can only be buffed for higher elo but not lower elo if you increase skill cap.

Giving him buffs like the ones you proposed will make him stronger in low elo, because they aren't exactly skill-based except for making the last one.

Something skill based would be some sort of reward for properly timing W.

It's hard to implement without reworking the champ.

i dont believe lower divisions even know how to lasthit under a turret properly, or to use animation cancels. so the early spin cancel wouldnt make a difference in low divisions.

as far as the increased animation speed on his q goes, its exactly the opposite reason. in low divisions, it doesnt make a difference how fast the animation is. the reaction times of players are too slow to capitalize on the slow animation. theyll always get hit by the q anyways.

but at higher ranks a Riven whos really good at her champion for example will practically never get hit by a garen q. she will always dash out of the ability during the animation, which absorbs the damage and brings her far enough out of range for garen to follow up with a spin. or she will cancel the q by stunning him out of the animation with her w.

this is fine during the earlier stages of the lane phase, where garens opponent is locked into a 1v1 with him. it gives his melee trades some counterplay. but in teamfight situations later on, it can make the difference of landing a q and getting the damage off, or his opponent hitting exhaust or a shield on garens target during the q animation even if you flash on your target. the slow animation shouldnt hold him back as much as it does anymore at that stage of the game.

Troll for Trump1 votes

I have more confidence in lower division skill levels, then.

You sold me on the W timing change on Q.

Auz the Ripper1 votes

{quoted}

I have more confidence in lower division skill levels, then.

I don’t know why, we’re pretty terrible

Troll for Trump1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Auz the Ripper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ETWXwRGv,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-17T18:29:39.671+0000)

I don’t know why, we’re pretty terrible

You guys aren't that bad. There's bronze 5 bad, and silver is considerably better than that.

When "higher" elo players say that low elos are all the same, it's because they compare them with others in their elo.

NemeBro5 votes

I'd rather they just cut the bullshit and give him the rework he actually deserves.

Pika Fox2 votes

Honestly id rather him not get a major rework, other than changing his villain thing. League still needs cheap and easier champions for newer players, and garen fits pretty well as-is.

redniwediS5 votes

allow him to cancel his spin after 0.5 seconds instead of locking him into it for a full second have his q animation speed scale up with his base attack speed (his champion level) dont lock him out of his w active, while his q animation is playing.

Holy crap yes please. Little quality of life changes like this would make all the difference for those of us who put an unusually large amount of time into playing Garen.

ModCaptainMårvelous5 votes

While your post is certainly true, I think the better question is "Would these solve Garen's problems?" or "Will these make Garen more viable in high ELO?". The point people try to make with Garen buffs is that adjusting his raw strength rather than mechanical depth would cause him to be overblown. While everything you said is a buff, I don't think it'd outright make Garen strong to the degree that people are going "Damn Garen lookin' extra spicy today". Rather, I think these buffs give higher level players more mechanical depth to squeeze a bit more power out of Garen.

To me, it feels/sounds like the "+5 AD/-3 AD" meme. Yes, it's buffing/nerfing a champ in a subtle but effective way for the highest tier of play. Yes, it's a change made to a champion that doesn't affect ELO. It isn't however, such an impactful change that it solves the problems the champion currently has and is often a placebo more than anything.

The things Garen needs probably can't be solved or treated in a way that's as simple as "Buff X" or "Rework Y". Rather, I think it's a combination of things that need to be analyzed. These changes could bring Garen up from a 49.55 to a 49.77 but would they be impactful enough to net him the ultimate goal of being a viable, competitive pick on every tier of play?

Critmaster Garen4 votes

{quoted}

While your post is certainly true, I think the better question is "Would these solve Garen's problems?" or "Will these make Garen more viable in high ELO?". The point people try to make with Garen buffs is that adjusting his raw strength rather than mechanical depth would cause him to be overblown. While everything you said is a buff, I don't think it'd outright make Garen strong to the degree that people are going "Damn Garen lookin' extra spicy today". Rather, I think these buffs give higher level players more mechanical depth to squeeze a bit more power out of Garen.

To me, it feels/sounds like the "+5 AD/-3 AD" meme. Yes, it's buffing/nerfing a champ in a subtle but effective way for the highest tier of play. Yes, it's a change made to a champion that doesn't affect ELO. It isn't however, such an impactful change that it solves the problems the champion currently has and is often a placebo more than anything.

The things Garen needs probably can't be solved or treated in a way that's as simple as "Buff X" or "Rework Y". Rather, I think it's a combination of things that need to be analyzed. These changes could bring Garen up from a 49.55 to a 49.77 but would they be impactful enough to net him the ultimate goal of being a viable, competitive pick on every tier of play?

i get where youre coming from. if im correct, youre saying that garen much like volibear lacks any remarkable ability beyond being a strong fighter, that makes him a valuable strategic pick.

though i think while the implementation of his villainy mechanic is flawed, it gives him a pretty clear identity as an anti-carry.

giving him animation tweaks and making his kit less clunky wont make him suddenly a great pick into any teamcomp. but considering the changes are low efford and would definitely increase his skill ceiling (even if just a little bit) and make him less terrible at ratings, where these small mechanics like animation cancels, animation times, or being locked out of your abilities become important, it would be worth looking into them.

a change as small as the addition of the parry to his w was more effective to increase his play making potential and skill ceiling and general viabiltiy than the entire juggernaut rework. if theyd just keep it going with small changes like this, garen could definitely become a decent champion even into master tier with his current kit.

like 2 or 3 people already managed to reach masters by 1 tricking garen last season. so hes definitely not as bad as he used to be anymore, where it was downright impossible to climb past d5 with him.

id also like to point out, that darius winrate once shot up by 4% in season 6 when they fixed a bug with his pull that prevented him from from hooking people mid dash. seemingly small mechanical changes can sometimes have a large impact on a champions success. giving garen better animation cancel combos and not locking him out of his w during the q animation might not do anything, or it could do a lot.

wildfox993 votes

if only riot would listen its community sometimes...damn sure on these boards there are many people that just complain,but there are also people with nice ideas

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

DracosKasu1 votes

The problem is most of the time, people complaint and try to fix stuff by making the character worse or break the character will un-needed buff which why Riot rarely take the idea from the forum.

[zombie-brand-clap]

Lufist2 votes

[deleted]

ShaolinToilet1 votes

Nearly all of the player base cares since they are low elo

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Nearly all of the player base cares since they are low elo

the game isnt balanced around low elo. i mean unless you want to count plat into it, which isnt far off.

though targeting those buffs at high elo play instead of low elo is exactly the point.

Pika Fox1 votes

Riot does actually care about low ELO balance to an extent. Champs have historically been nerfed if they have been too overbearing at lower ELOs even if theyre were trash elsewhere, Yi as an example. They want the game to be enjoyable for everyone, and if something is overbearing at lower ELOs it might be better to adjust numbers in the short term while figuring out a more long term plan for them.

They just arent going to nerf every champ every time its a bit too strong in lower ELOs, as player skill does improve as a whole from pro play down, but wont let total stomps exist either.

Lufist1 votes

[deleted]

ShaolinToilet1 votes

Millions of players are not going to suddenly get better and change their whole attitude on balance. The game is made to be fun before competitive.

MorgManBasher2 votes

I like how he's suppose to be this huge low elo stomper yet his winrates not even that good down there lmao

CleverSloth2 votes

When has rito ever cared about low elo balance? Never.

I agree though as a garen / darius main these would be welcome changes. I still think they both need straight stat buffs of.... well something, probably either damage or health but armor/MR would work too. However this would be a start, good ideas OP.

DarwinTheory1 votes

Well, they could start by REVERTING HIS F*CKING Q BACK TO IT'S ORIGINAL 2.5 SILENCE FORM!!!!!!!!! But that would involve admitting they fucked up and RIOT never do that.

I mean every new champion seems to have hyperspeed escape or poke nowadays.

Buff Nasus beyond godly levels? Buff Vayne so late game is 10 minutes? Deal. I mean where is the logic? Really?

And Yasuo....Jesus Christ Yasuo gets either banned or picked every....single.....game.....and he utterly facerolls low elo or feeds his ass off.....and there's the kicker.........it's "claimed" he sucks at High elo yet his pick rate is still super high there! And even when he loses his KDA is still high.

The comical part though is despite the ban %. despite the pick %. despite the cries from the customers RIOT won't nerf him but will happily keep Garen piss-weak.

Let's not forget the juggernaught 'update' shall we:

(nerf) Reduced MS (nerf) W bonus now requires stacks, tenacity withdrawn (nerf) Q silence nerfed by 1 second (nerf) E tick damage lowered but scales higher to late game.....which i add doesn't exist anymore and even if it did Garen can no longer stick to an opponent to apply said ticks (nerf - withdrawn) E was going to slow Garen (I kid you not) as it applied ticks (nerf - withdrawn) E crit was going to be removed (buff) Villain mechanic added. And pretty useless.............although it was funny when nobody @ RIOT first considered that the last person to kill Garen procced it XD so they hotfixed it pretty quickly. I even knew that would happen from the patch notes. I mean c'mon....who thinks up these ideas....

** Now with all the nerfs above.....does ANYONE remember Garen running around high elo destroying people & being played in LCS before then????????????????? He can be buffed and the game won't break. In fact he can be REVERTED. Thanks.**

GhaelWinds1 votes

The problem with having a champion like Garen op vs a champion like yasuo is the consistency. If Garen is op he will consistently abuse that because he is mechanically simple and effectively a stat check; if his stats are too high he takes over a lane entirely.

Conversely, if yasuo is op it just makes the probability of feast or famine more skewed towards feast. A yasuo that plays badly will still go 1/7 even if the champion is op. However, It does mean that if you give him any sort of lead you will get curbstomped.

Overall though, It is more healthy for say a yasuo to be op than a Garen because of skill ceilings.

DarwinTheory1 votes

{quoted}

The problem with having a champion like Garen op vs a champion like yasuo is the consistency. If Garen is op he will consistently abuse that because he is mechanically simple and effectively a stat check; if his stats are too high he takes over a lane entirely.

Conversely, if yasuo is op it just makes the probability of feast or famine more skewed towards feast. A yasuo that plays badly will still go 1/7 even if the champion is op. However, It does mean that if you give him any sort of lead you will get curbstomped.

Overall though, It is more healthy for say a yasuo to be op than a Garen because of skill ceilings.

I see what you're saying but Garen was never broke pre Juggernaught which was an across the board nerf. Show me the evidence he was broken then.....in a less snowball meta? That 2.5 silence would only be applicable if he got close so it wouldn't be Garen that's oppressive but more him capitalising on other people's mistakes. Currently someone makes a mistake he Qs they simply use an ability to get away quickly after a second it's a joke. Meanwhile other champs have insane cc and burst.

And Garen is not mechanically simple where does this myth come from? If anyone thinks he is a simple Q and E bot well they just don't know how to play him. capitalising on mistakes, auto attacks and use of his W are crucial to his kit. In fact I'd say he is more about making people pay for mistakes than being oppressive like say Riven. People don't get that with him. His W has to be applied at the precise moment for that 90% dmg mitigation and then subsequent reduction of dmg to win that fight.

In fact his combos really aren't that different to say Renekton. Rivens a step above but not much.

GhaelWinds1 votes

He wasn't broken no, he was slightly above average but he was fine in my opinion, right before the rework was his high point in balance if you ask me, maybe not in interactivity but there you go. My comment was merely to say why Garen can't be op not that he is currently. In the past he got a bit too above what I would call healthy when he was slamming down on toplane: I remember this was fixed fast and he was put back in sub 50.

As for Garen being mechanically difficult... I'm going to have to say that youre biased in this one. Everyone has to capitalize on mistakes and get those extra autos in, since it's more important for Garen than other champs is his lack of mechanical difficult going to show. That isn't mechanical that is game knowledge. As far as mechanics go for Garen he has a Q aa reset, proper timing for W, maximum spin efficiency and knowing when to end that, and arguably ult kill threshold. Everything else that makes Garen hard is game sense/knowledge and not his mechanics.

JabaTheHat2 votes

And Garen is not mechanically simple where does this myth come from?

It's a fact that 99% of the people can agree on but you seem to be super biased about it. Are there things that Garen does and can show some skill? Yes you're right and you gave examples. But COMPARED to the other 100+ champs in the game, what skill expression he has is alot lower.

You also seem to be biased about Riven. You should search for "Riven Fast Combo" on Youtube and see if you can reproduce the animation cancel detailed in there(which cuts her animation time by a little but but needs 3 precise inputs every 1 second). THIS, is an example of something that's actually mechanically hard. Nothing Garen has comes even close to it. It's not "a step up but not much". Mechanically speaking Riven is literally orders of magnitudes harder. My guess is that you are not even aware of what her animation-cancel really requires of you to do. Just try it yourself and you'll find it SUPER HARD.

MetalGearTeemu1 votes

its an (opinion) 99% of the people can agree on...

Fixed that for you. Take a high level Riven or Yas main and see how well they can make their plays on a simple character like Garen.

They won't, they won't have the tools to do so. Somewhere in this games lifespan, riot convinced players that having 2x the mobility and options of other characters in the game was somehow "high skill cap". because you may accidentally trip over all your outplay buttons.

Garen has a simple kit in vacuum, but applying that simple kit effectively within the game is far more difficult then people let on, and why people quickly abandon Garen for characters with more reliable (ironic I know) toolsets for playmaking.

Animation canceling is not hard, perhaps it is for people who are brand new to mobas, but for those of us who cut our teeth in Dota, nothing in this game stands close to playing Chen, Invoker, or Dryad. Even Malfurion.

JabaTheHat1 votes

Fixed that for you. Take a high level Riven or Yas main and see how well they can make their plays on a simple character like Garen.

A high level Riven and Yasuo main wouldn't do that well with Garen if they just go straight to playing Garen with no practice, I agree. But they'll be reasonably effective, only a bit lower than their normal rating. But if you do it the other way around, a high level Garen will ABSOLUTELY FAIL on Riven and Yasuo if he doesn't play those champs. He will drop rating alot more. So if you make this comparison both ways you'll still see that Garen is just easier.

Anyway, if Riven's ani-cancel + combos are not hard then you're probably some sort of high diamond amazing player. But hey, the rest of the player base, the 99%, will definitely find executing Riven ani-cancel + combos ALOT HARDER than Garen ani-cancel + combos. 3 precise inputs every 1 second is something I know most people will fail on, at least without hours of intense practice. But Garen's combos I'd say anybody can do easily.

Also people abandon Garen also largely because he is boring as hell play for most people. Alot of people find it enjoyable to one trick Riven but barely anybody likes to play Garen at all. It's just like no matter how sh1t Lee Sin is he will always be more popular than Rammus in play rate and one tricking, who wins more games than Lee Sin almost always everywhere but high diamond+(probably even there tbh).

Garen has a simple kit in vacuum, but applying that simple kit effectively within the game is far more difficult then people let on, and why people quickly abandon Garen for characters with more reliable (ironic I know) toolsets for playmaking.

I just don't see what you're coming from. Yes compared to Dota's hardest heros or let's say the cutthorat hardcore Starcraft, even champs like Riven and Yasuo are "not that hard". But if those "aren't hard", then Garen would be "EXTREMELY easy".

Also, why are you lvl 15? Do you even play this game? I would never do rank shaming. But I do need someone who at least plays the game to have a meaningful conversation with.

NemeBro1 votes

{quoted}

And Garen is not mechanically simple where does this myth come from?

Probably from the extremely self-evident fact that it's true. He's one of the easiest champions in the entire game. Only Volibear is definitely easier.

Every champion capitalizes on mistakes. It is one of the most fundamental skills in League. As does every champion make use of auto attacks. And every champion I can recall has an ability or abilities that require some precise timing.

Theorex1 votes

I mean, you can say the same thing about Ryze with solo queue and competitive. But they aren't going to do it. So ye.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

I mean, you can say the same thing about Ryze with solo queue and competitive. But they aren't going to do it. So ye.

ryze is kindof the opposite case.

hes incredibly strong in the hands of a player who has like 500 games on him, but garbage in the hands of someone who just picked him up. his skill floor is actually insanely high.

since the major portion of the people who are touching him from patch to patch is new to the champion and doesnt really stick with him, hell always have a deceptively low winrate with his kit.

OnanThaMan1 votes

can confirm, he was my 3rd most played champ last season, had a 44% winrate on him xD

Still fun as hell though to me

SaturnSC11 votes

As a Garen fan , i upvote this !

Wert the Wacky1 votes

He’s already op in low ranked.

BestPudgeNA1 votes

Garen is a Melee with no real gap closers or hard CC. So he needs to find flanks, people that don't know when too fight him or are mechanically weak players. This is gonna be much easier to do at lower MMR and nothing is gonna change that.

RookPusher1 votes

I don't know why they care. Garen is already OP in low ranked.

SaturnSC11 votes

All those Garen thread remind me of the good time ...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcHIxooCfow

MFTORANK11 votes

Why not just rework the champion entirely his kit sucks and he is so linear and boring to play why would you even pick him in the first place ?

Jerry SeinfeId1 votes

cuz justice

ShaftyMegee2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jerry SeinfeId,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ETWXwRGv,comment-id=00170000,timestamp=2018-01-17T22:16:04.867+0000)

cuz justice

Demacian justice

MetalGearTeemu1 votes

Having a character who's kit is simple and attempting to do your job with that character is a good exercise in fundamentals.

The difference between that Garen who's always kited and that Garen that always seems to kill your key teammate is often the result of better positiouing/foresight/macro play before a teamfight.

There's a place for that kind of character for practice purposes, and while garen is easy to play mechanically, you will find he often has a much harder time actually being productive for his team.

deadlychuck1 votes

The truth is, they're not wrong.

But the only way that they could really achieve it would be to remove some of the mechanics that have been added to him over the years, which i really doubt will happen. Because if there is one thing they refuse to touch more than balance, it's excess mechanics on champions.

SaturnSC11 votes

Garen could use some more debts and skill ceilling in his kit but for myself, faster Q animations as the game goes on and remove the W lockout seems like a good start.

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