Can someone in Riot explain how rooting tethers with a built-in slow are healthy for the game?

Fed by Snu Snu··5 votes·739 views

Namely LeBlanc's E and Morgana's R.

Why can't they have the slows removed and have power added elsewhere? If anything, these slows make the game even worse when it comes to mobility creep, since no immobile pick stands a chance against those unless they blow a flash. They make mobility a necessity.

Karma's W is a much more fair tether. Not to mention it actually disconnects when its supposed to be. (looking at you 1200 range Leblanc chains)

Edit: So everything here is considered "i can't beat this qq, please nerf this". Alright, no wonder balance is shit. It's the balance you deserve.

37 Comments

Cale0174 votes

Morgana's is her ult. Stands to reason it would have a bit more oomph to it.

All in all though, the tethers having a slow on them doesn't really break the game in any way that I've ever seen. Chances are that if someone took a LeBlanc, it was because the enemy team were people who wouldn't be able to easily get away from her tether, which just means that you got countered in team select. That's just sort of part of the game. And anyone who has a tether, even if it doesn't have a slow, usually has some other way to cause you an issue while the tether is working.

Nocturne can tag you with Q to keep you within range of the tether witht he increased MS, and once the fear happens you're all his.

Fiddlesticks can cast his fear on you, slowing your movement considerably while the drain saps you down to zero.

And if tether-reliant champions wanted to, they could all pretty easily be dicks about it and build a Rylai's Crystal Scepter for the powerful single target slow, as all tethers are magic damage skills.

Fed by Snu Snu3 votes

And if tether-reliant champions wanted to, they could all pretty easily be dicks about it and build a Rylai's Crystal Scepter for the powerful single target slow, as all tethers are magic damage skills.

That's normal, because you ahve to invest gold for it.

By that logic, let's give everyone +30% AP as a passive , since they can build rabaddon's anyway.

Cale0173 votes

That's called itemization. I'm describing how your complaint doesn't mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of things because even the champions who don't have slows built into the spell directly have slows elsewhere in their kit or can very easily attain one for the tether itself. You're the one with the twisted logic. By yours let's just start everyone at level 18 because you're going to get there anyways.

Fed by Snu Snu1 votes

The problem is not having a slow.

The problem is having a slow that leads to a root, aka a guaranteed root under normal circumstances.

And I'm not the one who applied the "you can a rylai's for a slow" logic, you are. So don't try to flip that on me.

Yes, if they invest the money, then it's fair game, that's not a reason to have it built-in.

Cale0172 votes

I'm the one who made a simple "it's not that hard to get a slow on a tether either way" argument, but by all means try and say that I'm flipping something when I took a mechanic that can only apply to a handful of champions and explained how they could get it without issue while you implied that every champion in the game should have Rabadon's passive. Mine was an example, yours was an extreme.

Get it?

Oh man, maybe you should consider not taking people who have mobility issues against someone who's bringing Morgana or Leblanc in. If they pick Leblanc after you, guess you just got counter picked. It happens. Work with your jungler more and she still dies.

Also consider learning how to dodge Morgana's Q so she can't get within range of her ult. That tends to cause her issues.

You make it sound like these things are completely impossible to play against, but I've still seen LeBlancs shut down. Hell I've shut them down myself. And outside of her broken capacity as a support (a spellshield and a three second snare? she's a sleeper carry, not a support) Morgana isn't that difficult to handle, especially if you're dealing AD damage and can stick to her to blow her up before her ult fires off after dodging her Q.

Try to keep in mind that both Morgana and LeBlanc have relatively slow movement speeds to make up for the slow that's on their tethers. And given how long those slows are, building early Merc Treads gives you a fair deal more movement speed than they have, and the tenacity reduces the amount of time you're affected by the slow, letting you run away in most cases unless you get caught out and they're able to hit you with their tethers from up close, where you can't really get away from them fast enough. Which, again, is you being caught out, not them having a broken mechanic.

Fed by Snu Snu1 votes

{quoted} I'm the one who made a simple "it's not that hard to get a slow on a tether either way" argument, but by all means try and say that I'm flipping something when I took a mechanic that can only apply to a handful of champions and explained how they could get it without issue while you implied that every champion in the game should have Rabadon's passive. Mine was an example, yours was an extreme.

Get it?

Oh man, maybe you should consider not taking people who have mobility issues against someone who's bringing Morgana or Leblanc in. If they pick Leblanc after you, guess you just got counter picked. It happens. Work with your jungler more and she still dies.

Also consider learning how to dodge Morgana's Q so she can't get within range of her ult. That tends to cause her issues.

You make it sound like these things are completely impossible to play against, but I've still seen LeBlancs shut down. Hell I've shut them down myself. And outside of her broken capacity as a support (a spellshield and a three second snare? she's a sleeper carry, not a support) Morgana isn't that difficult to handle, especially if you're dealing AD damage and can stick to her to blow her up before her ult fires off after dodging her Q.

Try to keep in mind that both Morgana and LeBlanc have relatively slow movement speeds to make up for the slow that's on their tethers. And given how long those slows are, building early Merc Treads gives you a fair deal more movement speed than they have, and the tenacity reduces the amount of time you're affected by the slow, letting you run away in most cases unless you get caught out and they're able to hit you with their tethers from up close, where you can't really get away from them fast enough. Which, again, is you being caught out, not them having a broken mechanic.

So you just used the "you can beat them so there's no need to change them" argument.

I think our conversation is over.

You could beat the old Nidalee as well, I don't see anyone trying to defend her back then.

Cale0171 votes

That's the entire point of League, dipstick. So long as a champion has means of avoiding being completely dominated with them in a way that reduces counterplay options, they aren't overpowered. So long as reducing the effectiveness of a tether skill is as easy as walking away, no. They don't need to be changed.

Why?

Because any player worth their mouse will buy either Tenacity items or increase their movement speed in the case of otherwise immobile champions, and the mobile ones will either straight out break the tether by getting away through dashes or blinks, or they'll dash or blink over a wall so that even if they're still in range and the secondary effect of the tether happens, the enemy champion can't get to them before it wears off.

There are still plenty of viable options for outdoing slowing tethers. If not, LeBlanc and Morgana would be at the top of the tier lists, but they aren't.

LeBlanc is meh, and in order to have meaningful impact has to become very fed very quickly.

Morgana is annoying, but if she builds like a support she also isn't doing enough damage to kill you, and as a midlaner she's also very meh, usually requiring ganks to keep enemies in range long enough to deal her full damage and try to net a kill.

Fed by Snu Snu1 votes

{quoted} That's the entire point of League, dipstick. So long as a champion has means of avoiding being completely dominated with them in a way that reduces counterplay options, they aren't overpowered. So long as reducing the effectiveness of a tether skill is as easy as walking away, no. They don't need to be changed.

Why?

Because any player worth their mouse will buy either Tenacity items or increase their movement speed in the case of otherwise immobile champions, and the mobile ones will either straight out break the tether by getting away through dashes or blinks, or they'll dash or blink over a wall so that even if they're still in range and the secondary effect of the tether happens, the enemy champion can't get to them before it wears off.

There are still plenty of viable options for outdoing slowing tethers. If not, LeBlanc and Morgana would be at the top of the tier lists, but they aren't.

LeBlanc is meh, and in order to have meaningful impact has to become very fed very quickly.

Morgana is annoying, but if she builds like a support she also isn't doing enough damage to kill you, and as a midlaner she's also very meh, usually requiring ganks to keep enemies in range long enough to deal her full damage and try to net a kill.

Tenacity doesn't reduce the slow of the tethers, it's a persistent effect. Swifties do.

Good try at sounding knowledgeable though. But you failed.

Also, this isn't about the champions being "op", because I'm not asking for nerfs because "they are broken, please rito". I specifically said that they should have power added elsewhere in their kit.

Cale0172 votes

If your issue is the root or the snare that happens at the end of the tether, then that's going to help you out.

You're accusing me of having a lack of knowledge when you don't know how to get out of range of tethers? Cute.

So you're complaining about how one part of their kit already has too much power for your tastes, but then saying that you'd rather have that power be elsewhere?

Sure. Give LeBlanc a 1.0 scaling for AP on her dash. Or make Morgana's puddle drain your life twice as fast to take the slow off her ult. Go right ahead. I'll wait for the QQ threads you'll start making about how overpowered they've become.

Fed by Snu Snu1 votes

{quoted} If your issue is the root or the snare that happens at the end of the tether, then that's going to help you out.

You're accusing me of having a lack of knowledge when you don't know how to get out of range of tethers? Cute.

So you're complaining about how one part of their kit already has too much power for your tastes, but then saying that you'd rather have that power be elsewhere?

Sure. Give LeBlanc a 1.0 scaling for AP on her dash. Or make Morgana's puddle drain your life twice as fast to take the slow off her ult. Go right ahead. I'll wait for the QQ threads you'll start making about how overpowered they've become.

Are you trying to flex you e-peen or have an actual conversation?

I know perfectly fine how to get out of tethers, as much I knew how to dodge Nidalee spears.

This still doesn't make it a scenario that isn't extremely in favor of the tether user, like sieging was a scenario heavily in favor of Nidalee due to having a strong heal on top of strong poke.

Also, you are the one complaining about Leblanc and Morgana if you're saying that any change to them would make them OP. What's the problem, you don't know how to play against Leblanc?

Cale0172 votes

No, I'm trying to figure out what exactly it is that you're bitching about. If I were flexing my e-peen I wouldn't be needing to throw out insults instead of actually contribute to the conversation.

If you know perfectly fine how to get out of tethers, why are you complaining about the tethers in the first place?

When a tether is in place, the advantage is supposed to be in their favor. That's what the tether does. It puts you, as a champion, on a leash with them tugging at it. Taking constant damage from an enemy champion is supposed to give them the favor in a 1v1 situation. That's like saying Shyvana's W gives her the advantage in a duel. Well no shit, you're taking damage constantly. Don't stand in her burnout. Don't get stuck in tethers. Is any of that getting through yet?

I'm not complaining about them or saying any change would make them OP. That was an example for your benefit. You want power somewhere else, be careful what you wish for. You don't know what price removing something from their kit might make you have to pay afterwards with something else they get instead.

Fed by Snu Snu1 votes

{quoted} No, I'm trying to figure out what exactly it is that you're bitching about. If I were flexing my e-peen I wouldn't be needing to throw out insults instead of actually contribute to the conversation.

If you know perfectly fine how to get out of tethers, why are you complaining about the tethers in the first place?

When a tether is in place, the advantage is supposed to be in their favor. That's what the tether does. It puts you, as a champion, on a leash with them tugging at it. Taking constant damage from an enemy champion is supposed to give them the favor in a 1v1 situation. That's like saying Shyvana's W gives her the advantage in a duel. Well no shit, you're taking damage constantly. Don't stand in her burnout. Don't get stuck in tethers. Is any of that getting through yet?

I'm not complaining about them or saying any change would make them OP. That was an example for your benefit. You want power somewhere else, be careful what you wish for. You don't know what price removing something from their kit might make you have to pay afterwards with something else they get instead.

Neither Leblanc's or Morgana's tethers do constant damage, the damage is at the start and at the end. Only Karma's tether does constant damage.

Do you even understand the mechanics behind the tethers we're talking about.

The point is simple, the inherect counterplay behind the tethers is to go out of range from them. The slow removes a big part of that counterplay. That's it. It's not a matter of Leblanc's or Morgana's general states of balance, which is why they may have power added elsewhere instead.

What you just described is Karma's tether, which is exactly what I said a tether should be like.

Cale0172 votes

No, but you're still under the effect of their tether. There is something connecting your neck to their hand.

I have to wonder if you understand the mechanics. One second you don't like that they have secondary effects, the next you're saying that you know how to deal with them just fine. I'm still waiting to hear why you even felt the need to complain about them at all if you know how to deal with it on your own.

The slow adds to their ability to lock down single targets, which is what those two are best for. That's like complaining about Sejuani having too much AoE, or an Akali that can 100-0 you in .5 seconds. It's what they do. If you don't like it, ban them.

Fed by Snu Snu2 votes

You have already posted false info twice, I don't think you are in a position to do any calls on my knowledge over the mechanics at hand.

And with your last sentence, I think I can conclude the conversation and the time wasted on you, because you obviously neither understand the point of the post, nor are you in a position to have any constructive debate about anything in the game. I don't have anything to say with randoms who can only reply with "if you dont like them, ban them" or "dont you know how to play against them", because I wasn't complaining about their overall power to begin with.

This is an argument based entirely around a combination of mechanics that is counter-intuitive to everything that Riot has claimed they want their game to have (counterplay) Unless you have any meaningful way to contribute over why they actually need it and provide a counter-argument, I'm not obliged to bother with your nonsense.

So, I'll keep it simple: Do you have any legitimate reason why tethers that end up on a cc should have a slow to guarantee that cc and how that leads to a healthy interaction in the actual game?

If yes, please, go ahead and enlighten me.

If not, then I don't care about your e-peen flexing anymore. You are a god that deals with everything. I bet you play without banning anything as well. If that's what you're getting at, there, have your satisfaction and leave the big boys have their actual conversation.

Cale0172 votes

You're right, you have been wasting your time. Although not with me. The entire premise you've been bitching about is one giant waste. That isn't all I had to say, I made my case with plenty more prose besides, and that was just the icing on the cake for my last response.

The only reason you're saying it's counterituitive to their statements about counterplay is that you aren't at the helm. If you were a Morgana or a LeBlanc main, you'd be singing an entirely different tune. Once again, the fact that LeBlanc is low tier while Morgana is high tier, although not from her ult but from her insane snare duration, shows that clearly the slow on their tethers does not impact counterplay against them so much that it becomes unfair to handle.

Do you have any legitimate reason why they should not? You're the one with the problem, but your only justification thus far has been that there's no counterplay against that mechanic when there's plenty. For instance, if LeBlanc has you tethered, she has to stay within range. She opens herself up to attack. So go all in on her, because chances are if the tether finishes she's going to blow you up otherwise. If you're playing a more mobile champ, just skirt away from it with whatever movement ability it is that you possess.

Their tethers also take much longer to reach completion versus a tether like Nocturne or Karma. You have a wider window to either kill them, or to get away, before you get hit with the CC. If they DIDN'T have the slow, you wouldn't have any issue simply walking away. If they reduced the duration of the tether, it would become too easy to land the CC that comes at the end of it. Putting a slow on a lengthy tether is a middle ground beneath the two. They still have to work for it if they want the full effect, and you still have to work for it if you want to get away. It isn't impossible, it's far from. I've broken plenty more Morgana and LeBlanc tethers than I have been hit by them because even with the slow, it's not that hard to get away. Especially since chances are they're going to try and cast it from the max range they can.

While you accuse me of flexing some fictitious ego, you're too busy condescending to realize you're almost ferally stroking at your own. I am not a god that deals with anything, but I'm a player who can step back and look at the design of a champion objectively. If you had really thought any of this through as much as you're trying to make it seem, you should have supplied an alternative that details where else in their kit this power would shift.

As it stands, you have not. You have voiced a problem and posed as though you have the solution when you haven't even the faintest idea of what the compensation for removing the problem you're voicing even is. You're treating CC + tether as though it's this horrible, uncounterable mechanic when in all reality it isn't going to be the reason that either of those champions are ever considered overpowered if they ever do become labeled that. It gives them ways to make plays, and makes you have to work a little bit harder to get away from them to keep yourself from getting caught in one.

Boo freaking hoo.

As it stands, the tethers aren't the part of their kits that cause issues when either of them are dominating in a match they're in. That remains LeBlanc's overwhelming damage potential, and Morgana's ability to essentially turn off an enemy champion during a team fight from a stupid long distance.

If you want to talk about the problem, then you should probably have thought it out well enough to offer up a solution as well. There's nothing to be gained from whining about the issue and calling for change but not saying what that change could be, more so over a mechanic that isn't even that awful to deal with. Sucks to be caught in, but if you're stuck in it it's because you were caught out without any mobility options. Not because the slow is counterintuitive. It's a part of their playstyle, whether you like it or not. Part of what defines them as champions. There's a limit where removing something for the sake of balance instead changes the way a champion plays as a whole.

Until the slows on their tethers become notably, and unfairly, difficult to play against, they don't have to be altered. The slows aren't what win either of them matches. That still falls to the skill of the player and of the enemy they're trying to kill.

Or next I suppose you're going to be complaining that the added slow on Diana's knockup is too much CC. Or that Wukong's ult is counterintuitive because if you get knocked up by it you're stuck taking damage afterwards and there's "no counterplay" for that either.

Thus far the only thing you've succeeded in doing was pointlessly complaining about a mechanic that no one else seems to have a problem with. It's not even a concern for most players. It is a part of the tactical decisions that make up this game, starting in champion select. There are ways to render them ineffective, and ways to make it so that you can't do anything to stop them, starting from the moment champions are being picked for the match. If you happen to pick someone with no means of getting away, oh well. It was the choice you made, and not everyone is going to be able to get away from everyone else. That's part of the game. But so long as there are still viable options of handing the situation at hand, it doesn't need to be altered. It isn't oppressive, it isn't "anti fun", and there are still enough counterplay options to keep you from being completely wrecked in all cases in a fashion that is unfair to you as a player or biased towards them as a champion.

AHeroNamedHawke1 votes

{quoted} There are still plenty of viable options for outdoing slowing tethers. If not, LeBlanc and Morgana would be at the top of the tier lists, but they aren't.

And that right there is how you know someone doesn't know what they're talking about

Cale0173 votes

LeBlanc is tier 3, and Morgana is tier 1 strictly because of her snare. Not even because of her ult.

AHeroNamedHawke1 votes

{quoted} LeBlanc is tier 3, and Morgana is tier 1 strictly because of her snare. Not even because of her ult.

Leblanc is pick/ban is competitive and popular in solo queue again

Yeah I'd peg that at tier 3

Cale0172 votes

Popular =/= effective in all cases.

If you need any further insight than that, I present to you LeBlanc's place on the tier list. Yes, right up there with the ever popular AP Jarvan, and the entirely gimmicky Riven mid!

God, you know I'm just so darn tired of seeing all those overpowered Malphite mids.

AHeroNamedHawke1 votes

{quoted} Popular =/= effective in all cases.

If you need any further insight than that, I present to you LeBlanc's place on the tier list. Yes, right up there with the ever popular AP Jarvan, and the entirely gimmicky Riven mid!

God, you know I'm just so darn tired of seeing all those overpowered Malphite mids.

> Blindly following tier lists

haha ok jeff

You know I could make a tier list too, would you follow it because Im diamond?

Cale0172 votes

proven wrong so attempting to devalue the evidence by dodging the issue

who the blue ballsacks is jeff

Nah, I wouldn't. I don't even follow the tier lists, I play who I want. Only time I bother to look at them is when someone is complaining about something like this.

Now if you'll excuse me I'm off to play attack speed cdr zac bottom lane

AHeroNamedHawke1 votes

{quoted} who the blue ballsacks is jeff

Nah, I wouldn't. I don't even follow the tier lists, I play who I want. Only time I bother to look at them is when someone is complaining about something like this.

Now if you'll excuse me I'm off to play attack speed cdr zac bottom lane

Ok so to disprove what a diamond player said about stats you use a diamond player's opinion

What a compelling argument

Who's list is that anyway?

Cale0172 votes

You said that they were high tier. I simply found the easiest available option to show that there is, at the very least, a differing opinion. And I for one have not seen a LeBlanc for probably about two months now, so even without an internet tier list I find it hard to believe that she's becoming more and more popular in either case.

I haven't used any one specific person's opinion, considering that's the generic nerfplz list. Literally the first thing I found on a simple google search, not any one player's, and even on their secondary tier list based on the popularity of picks instead of the fluctuating power of the champions by the numbers, LeBlanc is STILL only tier 3, and Morgana drops from first to third as a mage.

As I said in the other thread, attempting to come at me with assumptions provides nothing of merit on your side of the conversation. In fact, you attempting to chastise my understanding of the meta seems to have gotten you a downvote twice over, so it seems that between the two of us I'm not the one who has some lack of understanding about the current state of the meta. You are.

AHeroNamedHawke1 votes

{quoted} You said that they were high tier. I simply found the easiest available option to show that there is, at the very least, a differing opinion. And I for one have not seen a LeBlanc for probably about two months now, so even without an internet tier list I find it hard to believe that she's becoming more and more popular in either case.

I haven't used any one specific person's opinion, considering that's the generic nerfplz list. Literally the first thing I found on a simple google search, not any one player's, and even on their secondary tier list based on the popularity of picks instead of the fluctuating power of the champions by the numbers, LeBlanc is STILL only tier 3, and Morgana drops from first to third as a mage.

As I said in the other thread, attempting to come at me with assumptions provides nothing of merit on your side of the conversation. In fact, you attempting to chastise my understanding of the meta seems to have gotten you a downvote twice over, so it seems that between the two of us I'm not the one who has some lack of understanding about the current state of the meta. You are.

Ok your blind ignorance to actual statistics is really cute and all but wearing a bit thin

63% pick/ban in IEM and currently a 17% pick rate in Diamond

Having an opinion based off of some random pub games you had at low silver isn't knowledge of the state of the meta, it's blind guesswork

Cale0171 votes

Again, you're making accusations towards me but providing none of your own solutions. I'm still waiting to hear where exactly you feel their power should shift if you were to take the slow from their tether, and you have completely neglected to comment on me answering your question on why them having a slow isn't even such a bad thing. I answered you and have received nothing in return, which so far as I'm concerned only indicates that you had nothing to say in the first place beyond your incessant bitching.

63% pick/ban, and a 17% pick rate in diamond. So let's break that down for a moment and compare a few quick numbers. Warwick, much more recently, was at a pick/ban rate of 95%. And it shows, as it was impossible to play a match without seeing one if you didn't ban him. A 17% pick rate in diamond only says nothing about other elos, which all function in different ways, and Riot isn't going to nerf or alter a basic function of someone's kit when they're only an "issue", much less even being seen, by a small portion of the community.

You have an opinion based on your own inability to not get fucked over by a LeBlanc. Right now your view on the issue is several magnitudes as blind as you're accusing mine of being because you're utterly failing to step back and take the bigger picture into account, even when you ask me to explain what that is and I answer you directly, based on a single, small subset of ranked play. There's a reason surveys for a city don't just talk to twenty or thirty people.

AHeroNamedHawke3 votes

That's a fairly good point actually

The counterplay is supposed to be leaving range, but the ability inherently inhibits its own counterplay

And Cale buddy, a 3k gold investment for no cdr or mana regen to get a slow is not "easily attained"

Fed by Snu Snu2 votes

I don't think he understands the point of the post, it mostly seems like he just tries to sound like the pro who can deal with everything with no regard to the actual game principles applied at hand.

And yes, you are spot on, it pretty much negates their own counterplay and force a rarer form of counterplay (flash and dashes) to be the only alternate option.

chumbler2 votes

"CC gives me the feelbads."

-OP

Epilogue of Life1 votes

They really need the slow late game because that's when difference in MS really kicks in, for example a morg trying to get that stun off on a udyr...

Fed by Snu Snu1 votes

That's a point I could understand, what if the slow was given at rank 3 for Morgana and was given 5% per rank for Leblanc?

Epilogue of Life1 votes

but that was only 1v1 scenarios...a lot of champions can give allies MS boosts too, and while I feel that LB shouldn't have that slow, Morg definitely need it from first rank.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

Morgana's R applying a slow is understandable; it's her ultimate, she's a slow-moving support, and her only other CC is a single-target snare. She can barely keep up with a single target if everyone's paying attention.

Leblanc is a good question, considering the quadra-blinks and damages.

Joe Dredd1 votes

*stunning tethers.

Joe Dredd1 votes

for morg

Fed by Snu Snu1 votes

Well yes, you are correct there, my bad but had some issues with the character limit and it slipped my mind in the end.

Joe Dredd1 votes

o okie. #nerfmorg2015

Decaedeus1 votes

Karma gets a speed boost on her other ability and a slow on yet another ability. I really don't think there's much difference between a slow attached to a tether and a slow attached to another ability. In fact, if you took Ethereal Chain's slow effect and placed it on LeBlanc's Q, she would play virtually the same.

More from Gameplay

More by Fed by Snu Snu