Humor me on these darius changes boards

Tychusfindlay918··36 votes·2,849 views

I despise the changes maliciousmetal set forth and would instead rather see this.

Decimate change:

now only heals 10% at level 1. Scales upward by 1% per level. (10,11,12,13,14%)

Modest power shift from early to late game that he accesses around mid game since he maxes decimate first. At max rank decimate heal is capped at 4 people instead of 3 people (teamfight buff IF he lands decimate on 4 people which is ridiculously hard to do 90% of the time anyways).

Apprehend (no change, although it would be nice to see the ninja nerf it got reverted, its actual range is 540 not 550 as many would like to believe).

Crippling strike change:

We need to bring back something that old darius got right that new darius doesn't have right... We need to bring back the benefits of using crippling strike on opponents who are already stacked. Old darius had CD reduced based on amount of stacks when crippling strike was used.

What we can do instead is this:

crippling strike now only slows by 20% for 1 second. For every stack an opponent has during the time they were crippling striked, the slow increases by 15% and the duration increases by .1 second. This means that if darius initiates with AA > W the slow isn't as oppressive, but if he uses Q to poke you and maybe an auto again before he AA > W you then it'll start to feel more like how it does right now (but will also last a bit longer as compensation). This will make his decimate A LOT LESS guaranteed without prior stacking or noxian might active. NOT NEEDED, but something perhaps to think about is MAYBE giving darius access to a small MS steal if he crippling strikes an opponent that already has 5 stacks on them, but that is not necessary and would only need to be done if these changes ended up killing darius for whatever reason instead of power shifting.

Passive (noxian might portion) change:

current: 30/30/35/35/35/35/40/50/60/70/80/90/100/120/140/160/180/200 bonus AD

Proposed: 20/25/30/30/35/35/40/50/65/75/85/95/105/125/150/160/190/220 bonus AD

Simple, siphon his lane phase all in power which is what people hate and give it to his mid and late game. He goes back to live values at level 5, and then surpasses them ONLY BY 5 at level 9 and then ramps up compared to live at level 15 and ends with 20 more AD than current level 18 noxian might.

With these changes darius will have quite a weaker lane phase (but not complete trash because it shouldn't be complete trash), but will have a better teamfight and mid-late game for it. His decimate is no longer hard guaranteed with little prior stacking, but his stickiness gets better if the fight continues and he starts to W you when you have a lot of stacks.

Also darius should probably have permanent reset at lvl 11 given that riot themselves said lane phase is over at lvl 11 anyways (justification used for garen passive buff).

There, darius has an objectively much worse early game but a better late game. His popular AA > W > Q combo received a huge reliablity nerf unless the fight goes long enough for him to access noxian might, nerfing his current short trade potential in 1v1s and only keeping his long trade potential the same (in reality probably a tiny bit better but not too much).

I think it's irrational to straight up nerf his 1v1 potential in every scenario as suggested by maliciousmetal. I don't think he's an oppressive dueler compared to Fiora Nasus Jax Riven etc. People have an issue with him because riot never went full throttle on toning down his early game and giving him something to work with late game, especially in teamfights. This is probably what the OG juggernaut rework darius should have been with respect to what riot envisioned for him.

TL;DR we're crippling (heh) darius's pre level 3 but giving him just compensations that he can feel by mid game outside of duels. His dueling in the short term is worse but gets a small amount better if the duel lasts long enough for him to get noxian might (except for pre level 3 where his noxian might doesn't give enough AD for him to auto-dominate duels no matter how long they are). Darius does not need his dueling potential nerfed in every case as proposed by maliciousmetal, but I don't mind darius having to work a little harder in duels. Juggernauts ought to be scary in 1v1s like they are in teamfights.

45 Comments

Bottom Laner14 votes

But with these changes we won't have Darius become an ADC like he's supposed to be. Did you pay attention to anything Rubick Malicious posted?!?!!?! /s

LegendmakerGX7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bottom Laner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EQ0dOEY2,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-09-25T00:19:14.169+0000)

But with these changes we won't have Darius become an ADC like he's supposed to be. Did you pay attention to anything Rubick Malicious posted?!?!!?! /s

Are these 2 the same dude? I've seen another person say Rubick is Malicious other account when he got called out for faking meddlers words and got roasted by Meddler himself.

Bottom Laner2 votes

I can confirm that Rubick and Malicious are 2 different people.

AlienPrimate2 votes

It is hard to be the same person when they duo together.

Malicious Metal14 votes

{quoted}

Are these 2 the same dude?

Yes, I got multiple personality disorder as well as a whopping 400 IQ, allowing me to effectively play on two accounts simultaneously.

Tails90161 votes

Please, you have to main Yas and Riv at the same time to hit that 500 IQ

Salson3 votes

Rubick is Malicious

Well you're actually right, his smurf was called Metal Malicious.

Malicious Metal3 votes

He renames just as frequently as some people change their underwear.

Salson1 votes

The joys of excessive IP.

Mira Arya Enthe6 votes

Nah MM just uses his notoriety to get upvotes for Rubicks ideas.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Well unlike Rubick Malicious, we don't want Darius to be an "ADC", because we actually know Darius is a frontline champion. Good luck staying back and dealing damage like an ADC when you're Darius.

Malicious Metal5 votes

To be fair, "Frontline" isn't exactly what most Juggernauts want to be. A Juggernaut does not want to initiate and tank the initial impact of a team fight. They like to follow up on the tank as they are not as durable as pure tank and rather brawl after the initial cc and AoE damage has been thrown out.

<Tank/Frontline> <Bruisers/Juggernauts/follow up> <Backline/Mage/enchanter/ADC>

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

See the main thing that I'm glad about is that you understand the distinction.

<Bruisers/Juggernauts/follow up> < Darius goes here.

<Backline/Mage/enchanter/ADC> < Darius does not go here.

Malicious Metal2 votes

Morde also goes there, and I play him as an adc.

Think Rubick's main point with "Darius ADC" is that he wants other classes to be viable damage carries with tradeoffs without having marksmen be mandatory.

At least riot is considering adding some support for mage bot laners.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

See I don't mind other classes being viable damage carries.

My main issue is that Rubick thinks that Darius isn't front line. That's a Juggernauts job, and I too am looking fowards to mage bot laners.

APC Reworked Azir bot here I come.

Ralanr3 votes

Imo I actually find that weird.

Not wanting to imitate is understandable, but being a frontline should be where they should go as they are built to take punishment.

And due to the sustain of some juggernauts, they can actually be more durable than tanks.

Teridax684 votes

I feel it's more a question of incentives and goals. Tanks and fighters are both built to take damage, but only tanks generally want to take damage, whether it's by gaining power from it (e.g. Amumu) or having their power depend on intercepting damage (e.g. Braum). Their goal is to disrupt the enemy team, and that disruption involves redirecting focus onto themselves and away from their teammates. By contrast, the goal of a fighter is to kill enemies, so if they took no damage they would be just as happy. In this respect, their tankiness is more a means to an end, rather than an end in itself. Right now, fighters are expected to be a part of the front line and take damage because the back line is generally seen having kill potential so far superior to theirs that it would be more practical for them to take the role of an off-tank. If fighters, and in this case juggernauts, were seen as valuable enough to be one of the team's main damage engines, then they would likely not be expected to put themselves constantly in harm's way.

Automated Riven2 votes

Well said.

Tychusfindlay9181 votes

{quoted}

Imo I actually find that weird.

Not wanting to imitate is understandable, but being a frontline should be where they should go as they are built to take punishment.

And due to the sustain of some juggernauts, they can actually be more durable than tanks.

Right, I don't follow malicious metal's logic.

In the absolute highest tiers of play, juggernauts historically initiated ALONGSIDE tanks. The only outlier in this regard is mordekaiser because he's a shit-tier juggernaut and plays more like a full AP mage.

ViciousSummoner1 votes

Next patch: Darius' Q range has been increased to 1000 units and the cool down is now refunded by half restoring HP and Mana if it hits an enemy champion.

Salson9 votes

Well let's see:

Decimate change

Decent power shift, worth testing on PBE if nothing else.

Crippling strike change

Same

Passive (noxian might portion) change

Well same, all in all I like these changes.

Unlike what MM sugested, this is still essencialy Darius.

One thigh I'd add though, though it wasn't originaly my idea: **Let his R do 1 damage on cast, if the target dies before the second part connects, Darius still gets 5 stacks. Furthermore, If the target dies 3 seconds after getting hit with R, Darius still gets his reset. ** These are mostly reliability QoL buffs for lategame. Worked wonders for Veigar really.

ChaosThief8 votes

Besides the "target dying after 3 seconds" part I can agree with that. I would say it should be a shorter window, 1-1.5 seconds.

Lord of Math1 votes

Or what if his Ult reset when he gets the kill off of his passive also. It would be a small buff to his teamfighting ability. I also like the idea proposed of him still gaining noxian might after ulting if the target dies within three seconds.

Salson2 votes

Sure, the number is more like a placeholder. Being 'Killsteal King' is fun and all, but it becomes clunky as you climb the ranks.

DeathBurst2 votes

worth testing on PBE if nothing else.

PBE is not for testing balance changes. They have their internal play tests for that. PBE is for debugging and "feel" feedback, but it's horrible to get balance data.

Worked wonders for Veigar really.

What are you talking about? ô_e

Salson2 votes

Veigar used to have to 'ks' every kill to get stacks.

Felt clunky as hell, so they changed it so he gets bonus AP on both kills and assists.

Automated Riven1 votes

He already has a .25-.5 second grace period. I personally think that if people are messing up his ulti they should be punished, not rewarded.

Salson1 votes

They way his reset currently works also actively encourages him to steal kills. The thing is, he doesn't actually need them, as he functions well with Cleaver into full tank.

Currently you get people to 800 hp and ult, your team tears off some 500 in the proces and you waste that damage. Sometimes you ult when they have 1000 hp, your team think 'enemy dead > switch focus', and you lose the reset.

With the change, you ult at 1500 hp, your team does 500, you do 800, and who even cares who takes the does the last 200 and gets the kill.

Automated Riven1 votes

The problem with this is that his ulti damage would have to be needed for this to go through. He would have way to much guaranteed damage in team fights with 800 on every target. Especially that he can ulti a squishy with full health and zero stacks and he would still get the reset due to how fast targets die in this game atm. He is gated to have a really high true damage refreshable ulti based on him being forced to last hit allowing there to be room for error. If this change goes through and you want to keep the damage the same I would make he argument that he be unable to ulti unless the target has 5 stacks.

Salson1 votes

Let's honest here, the last thing Darius needs is a stronger laning phase.

A buff to his teamfighting is only half as effective below Plat, but would give him much needed reliability he needs to be good in D+. Ideally it would give him 0.5% winrate in bronze-gold-silver, 1.0% in plat-low diamond and 1.5 in high diamond+.

It's really not that big of a change.

Automated Riven1 votes

It is tho. If he ults anyone besides a tank in a team fight and his team even half knows what they are doing he hits 5 stacks. It doesn't matter. Nobody but full tanks with stone plate last longer then 3 seconds under focus fire. Imho before we start randomly throwing around buffs for weak champion how about we tone down the ridiculous damage marksmen get from 2 items and see how things turn out. If Darius lives longer he is far more useful and impactful. This applies to all the juggernauts to be honest. This stupid 4 second team fight meta just needs to die already and the lifespan of all people in team fights needs to go up. Then we have proper counterplay and proper skill expression. And holy shit it would be more fun.

Salson1 votes

It is tho. If he ults anyone besides a tank in a team fight and his team even half knows what they are doing he hits 5 stacks.

Which is why it won't affect low elo as much as high elo.

Imho before we start randomly throwing around buffs for weak champion how about we tone down the ridiculous damage marksmen get from 2 items and see how things turn out.

Revert the midseason changes. Let item 3033 and item 3036 remove 45% armor. Nerf item 3031 to 65 AD and 3800 gold. Add 200 gold price to every item 3086 item. Add 500 gold price to item 3026, add 10 AD, change to 50% base and 50% bonus.

Automated Riven1 votes

Imho they just need to remove IE and add 200 to all zeal items. Then Darius is fixed.

Zero Skill Tank3 votes

The same nonsense as MM's. If Darius doesn't shit on enemy toplaner, he won't have enough power for teamfighting, unless enemy composition is thrash and they can't kite him at all.

Buffing parts of his kit with teamfighting in mind doesn't really change that, he needs buttload of raw stats or he won't be ever able to get where he needs to be to land massive Q's in the first place. And those stats only come from gold and xp advantage.

Tychusfindlay9184 votes

[{quoted}](name=dont stop Niisan,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EQ0dOEY2,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-09-24T20:20:57.383+0000)

The same nonsense as MM's. If Darius doesn't shit on enemy toplaner, he won't have enough power for teamfighting, unless enemy composition is thrash and they can't kite him at all.

Buffing parts of his kit with teamfighting in mind doesn't really change that, he needs buttload of raw stats or he won't be ever able to get where he needs to be to land massive Q's in the first place. And those stats only come from gold and xp advantage.

Except he doesn't need to shit on the enemy top laner with these changes. And buffing certain aspects of his kit with teamfighting in mind DOES really change that because then he has a better teamfight (wow!). He doesn't need raw stats. All he needs is a scrapping of the current garbage meta on top of this.

Off tanks like juggernauts get melted in literally 3 or so seconds right now because of the ridiculous ADC meta in place, but in a normalized scenario where teamfights dont end in 5 seconds darius actually can do quite well in teamfights even if there's ample cc thrown at him. Ideally darius isn't the only frontline anyways. These changes aren't supposed to make darius some teamfight god on his own, juggernauts have some level of team reliance like ADCs and that's fine, there should be a tank up with darius in the enemy's face.

Zero Skill Tank4 votes

He doesn't need raw stats.

Yes, he does. He needs to walk up to 4 enemies first before he lands 4 man Q. Without stat advantage he will lose enough HP that buffed healing won't matter. Darius gets like 600 gold in raw stats for every level of advantage he has, and Noxian might scales with level too, no matter how you look like on it securing early advantage makes for big part of his winrate. Everything that makes him less oppresive is a huge nerf that you can't really compansate for without more meaningful changes to his kit (i.e. making it easier for him to close the gap).

Tychusfindlay9183 votes

[{quoted}](name=dont stop Niisan,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EQ0dOEY2,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-24T21:30:11.004+0000)

Yes, he does. He needs to walk up to 4 enemies first before he lands 4 man Q. Without stat advantage he will lose enough HP that buffed healing won't matter. Darius gets like 600 gold in raw stats for every level of advantage he has, and Noxian might scales with level too, no matter how you look like on it securing early advantage makes for big part of his winrate. Everything that makes him less oppresive is a huge nerf that you can't really compansate for without more meaningful changes to his kit (i.e. making it easier for him to close the gap).

the buffed healing automatically begins to matter at max rank decimate because even just decimating one or two people still gives more heal than it does now, so the healing is always buffed regardless of how many people you hit SO LONG AS DECIMATE IS RANK 4 OR 5. This is compensated by the fact that lane phase decimate takes a small sustain hit.

The 4 man cap is just a bonus if he even manages to land that, but he can land 4 man decimates in teamfights when he's enabled to do so. Of course he can never just walk up, like I noted in my first response to you juggernauts are still team reliant, even if they aren't necessarily as team reliant as ADCs.

nice table3 votes

i mean this is more of a nerf to darius than a buff and it wouldn't fix any of the late game problems he has.

Teridax682 votes

At this point, I feel one of the biggest issues with Darius may actually be his bleed. It doesn't give him any agency over his opponents, as it's conditional upon him landing his attacks and abilities, and instead it only means that whichever effects he does land, deal even more damage. It's what causes his Q to deal 100+ damage at level 1, and what makes him auto-win many trades even when he doesn't activate Noxian Might. At one point it may have had a thematic link with Draven, but now I don't think it really adds to the fun of playing Darius, particularly since he already has other great execution tools already, and it heavily contributes to his oppressiveness in the laning phase without doing much afterwards, again because his ult then becomes a much better means of executing his opponents (and its reset is conditional upon landing the killing blow, meaning you don't generally want enemies to bleed to death, so in that respect there's also a bit of anti-synergy).

Because of this, I'd support removing Darius's bleed, but since this would take a lot of power out of his kit, I'd advocate compensating for that elsewhere. Apprehend, for example, could stand to have a lower cooldown, especially early, and Crippling Strike could definitely also use some more pizzazz. Noxian Might itself could be buffed at all levels just to make him that much scarier when he does activate it, and bringing back the full Noxian Guillotine reset earlier (perhaps at rank 2 if not right off the bat) could also allow him to contribute much better to roaming fights.

Arakadia1 votes

I don't think the healing buff is that great. He has some fantastic healing. Sustain is not his problem.

Bladerunner77771 votes

Darius' viability in high elo doesn't even pertain to 99% of the people on these boards lol

kargish1 votes

A lot of people claim that X doesn't work in high elo or Y is garbage tier in high elo because they've seen it on their favourite stream. Let's not forget a ton of people have never even been close to reaching high elo.

dominusx1 votes

People want Darius to have more late game threat when he is litterally absolutely fucking useless in anywhere above diamond ( which is really the only relevant elo nowadays considering how bad the community has become at the game ) post like 25-30 minutes. You can buff him as much as you want but he will be a more viable Nasus he wont get on top of anything even if you improve his late game. He will be viable late game once you gut that shitty adc role into a proper state so melee champs can be relevant post lane phase.

lolipopevelynn1 votes

darius is a lane bully, but people dont get that. you cant fuck over his early game while he still has a shitty mid and late game. people dont like darius because they dont like lane bullies in general, so they complain despite the fact that any ranged top laner out bullies the bully...

ive always seen darius to be like draven, he needs to do well early in order to function well later. if he doesnt win lane he will just do absolutely nothing later on because ADCs, his natural counter, will keep him in check.

DuskDaUmbreon1 votes

People are fine with lane bullies, but not completely oppressive ones.

Fiora bullies you in lane, but you can basically just wait out her mana pool, assuming you have the inherent sustain to do so (Garen does this easily, as long as he backs off and heals between trades. Mundo should be able to do the same). People bitch about Fiora (No doubt about that. She's annoying to fight, and more hard to pin down than Ahri is), but nobody will say she's the champion with the least counterplay, because everyone knows that, deep down, they did get outplayed.

Teemo bullies you in lane, but you just kinda laugh at him, because you know his only point in the game is to make you useless.

Illaoi bullies you, but nobody really complains too much about that, because it does feel like there's a way to beat her.

Quinn bullies you, but she's also not complained about too much, because you know you can beat her, you just have to get close.

Renekton? He's annoying as fuck, and bullies the hell out of you, but most champions can still fight him. He's a lot like Fiora, except just not as popular, so he's not complained about as much as she is.

Darius, though? It's pretty much a given that you can't beat him if you're melee, unless he messes up, or you seriously outplay him. Everyone else, you feel like you can outplay, even if there's no chance in hell of you beating them. Renekton, you feel like if you were just a bit faster, you could have stunned him first. Fiora, you know it's your positioning and you mistiming your CC that got you killed. Teemo...well...you honestly just need Oracle Alteration and Adaptive Helm to kill him. Quinn, you know you just need to close - A flash-stun would doom her, or a gank when she's overextended, you know you can get her, you just need to figure out how to close the damned gap. Illaoi, you have a good number of things to dodge, and you just have to get out of her ultimate. Darius, though, you feel like the only thing you can do is stay as far away as possible. You don't feel like you can CS, because he just pulls you and makes you eat a lot of damage.

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