Let's talk about Vayne

SaltyToplaneGoat··1 votes·608 views

As most threads I tend to write here, this one isn't about balance, but about theme. So if you just want to bitch about % max-health true damage, please do so in another thread.

Ok, let's get started.

I know Vayne is a fairly old champ - yet for some reason I never see any rework ideas or anything on the boards. Only hate or fanboys trying to go against it, wich kinda surprises me, since, if we take a honest look at her kit it's really outdated - and thematically outclassed. I know, she's still viable and all, no doubt on that. But if your only strenght on the champ is that it deals the hardest-to-counter damage in game you've kinda missed the point of healthy design (especially since changes of attack speed rarely feel like a powerful tool - even if they are.) On top of that her kit has like... first of all only three active abilities. One is a boring ass steroid. The other two are a bit interesting, but nothing really cool or complex either. Apart from the Q maybe.

But honestly, if I want a demon hating night hunter dashing around the teamfight with small repositioning moves while gunning the enemy down, I'd rather play Lucian who actually feels and looks awesome to play. Also his ultimate is more satisifing to use since it actually DOES something. Vayne just gets a random power boost out of nowhere which has no actual thematic basis. So you mena her ult is "she's trying a little harder now"? Oh comeon, that's just lame. You would expect someone like Vayne to have an actually impressive ULTIMATE move. There's a reason it's called that...

Let me just compare the feelings when using the two ultimates: Vayne BÄM! Ok, I'm a little bit stronger now...

Lucian deep breath DIE YOU MOTHERFU***** DEMONS! EAT THIS!

Ähem... back to topic, no?

So, now thematically, what is the difference in between Lucian and Vayne?

  • Hates demons? Check.

  • Allinged to demacia? Check.

  • Lost important person(s) to dark creatures/demons? Check.

  • Trained hunter and demon-exterminator? Check.

  • Dark and brooding personality? Check.

But there's one. important. difference:

Vayne is THE GODDAMN BATMAN!

Think about it: young child from rich family gets its parents murdered by a criminal (or evil dark magics in this case, since criminals in a fantasy world obviously use dark magic). Then swears revenge and hunts all those down who are like the one who murdered her parents.

Lucian on the other hand is a trained soldier and gunman. His entire kit revolves around his weapons - and this is where the difference should be.

So, what are the most important things about being THE GODDAMN BATMAN?

  • Material Artist (and with that I mean more than just rolling around - how about giving an ADC some Melee moves? This idea would be worth looking into!)

  • Psychological Warfare (using darkness, not just some tiny stealth thing that just causes frustration!)

  • TOOLS! GODDAM TOOLS! HOOKS! BOOMERANGS! EXPLOSIVES! HIGH TECH! (The massive crossbow on her back is a good start for this - but why stop there?! Stuff her full with gadets that are fun to use AND fun to play against! )

  • No super powers! I think that's a no brainer - suddenly giving her magic powers would kinda screw with her theme. Instead, her tools and skills should be enough to keep up with magic users - simply BECAUSE SHE'S THE GODDAMN VANYE!

There's so much potential in what Vayne could be, but her current kit isn't delivering that. Sure the tumble-and-E-someone-into-a-wall is neat, but that's literally THE ONLY THING you can do. Well, sucks to have only two actual abilities while the rest of your power budget is wasted in hidden power factors.

Now I ask you, usually salty board community who will downvote this because you think I want to ruin your champ, to help me come up with awesome stuff to make our Night Hunter an unique and actually awesome champion! Modify the current kit, completly scrap it, I DON'T CARE, JUST MAKE THE RESULT LOOK AWESOME! I wonder what kind of crazy stuff you guys will come up with!

16 Comments

SmokingPuffin2 votes

I find Vayne's ult to be vastly more satisfying than Lucian's ult. I agree, the thematics are hokey (why wasn't she using that big crossbow all the time?) but it's just so awesome when you activate god mode and duel someone down.

Meanwhile, Lucian's ult looks flashy, but it often just tickles.

I would like Vayne's kit more if W had a utility active. You know Graves' smokescreen? That totally feels like a Vayne thing to me.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

{quoted}

I find Vayne's ult to be vastly more satisfying than Lucian's ult. I agree, the thematics are hokey (why wasn't she using that big crossbow all the time?) but it's just so awesome when you activate god mode and duel someone down.

Meanwhile, Lucian's ult looks flashy, but it often just tickles.

I would like Vayne's kit more if W had a utility active. You know Graves' smokescreen? That totally feels like a Vayne thing to me.

More like a smoke bomb, that would be more fitting. ^^

The problem with vayne's ultimate is that it's JUST a steroid. A super powerful one, no doubt, but nothing interactive or flashy. Also: tons of hidden power!

Also Lucian ult does many things, but not tickle... if you get only one or two shots... yeah maybe. But if he slams 16-18 of these shots into your face later on in the game... Now THAT's some damage ^^

SmokingPuffin2 votes

More like a smoke bomb, that would be more fitting. ^^

Right, that's the thematic way to do it.

The problem with vayne's ultimate is that it's JUST a steroid. A super powerful one, no doubt, but nothing interactive or flashy. Also: tons of hidden power!

I really enjoy the stealth mechanic on the ult. Would be happy to see it become more about mobility and outplay potential and less about adding damage.

Also Lucian ult does many things, but not tickle... if you get only one or two shots... yeah maybe. But if he slams 16-18 of these shots into your face later on in the game... Now THAT's some damage ^^

Lucian R is a loss of DPS late game relative to just shooting things. You can unload the whole thing into a Malphite and he'll be like "oh, sorry, didn't see you there".

It does feel appropriately impactful against squishies.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

{quoted}

Right, that's the thematic way to do it.

I really enjoy the stealth mechanic on the ult. Would be happy to see it become more about mobility and outplay potential and less about adding damage.

Lucian R is a loss of DPS late game relative to just shooting things. You can unload the whole thing into a Malphite and he'll be like "oh, sorry, didn't see you there".

It does feel appropriately impactful against squishies.

Well if you want more chances for "outplaying" I'd say you need some extra abilities. How about an ability that chnges your next attack to melee, is powerful but hard to get on? So you can decide to use the stealth to retreat and reposition, or use it to get into range to punch/kick that guy into the face!

Well... Actually the damage against suqishes is real... it just doesn't look that strong since a) people can dode the full load and b) the burst is extended over 2-3 seconds. Still, thematically it's more awesome in my eyes ^^ That tool is not supposed to be used against tanks, but to mow down and track/hunt down squishy enemies... to clarify that they even gave it 400% damage to minions ^^

SmokingPuffin1 votes

Well if you want more chances for "outplaying" I'd say you need some extra abilities. How about an ability that chnges your next attack to melee, is powerful but hard to get on? So you can decide to use the stealth to retreat and reposition, or use it to get into range to punch/kick that guy into the face!

Not so sure about melee range Vayne, risk seems to outweigh reward.

I'd be pretty excited if Vayne got an ability that dealt more damage to targets facing away from her. You could use the stealth to trick them into facing the wrong direction.

Well... Actually the damage against suqishes is real... it just doesn't look that strong since a) people can dode the full load and b) the burst is extended over 2-3 seconds. Still, thematically it's more awesome in my eyes ^^

It does look and sound really cool. Lucian in general is a Rule of Cool champion, everything he does is awesome. Not as awesome as Draven, but we can't all be Draven.

to clarify that they even gave it 400% damage to minions ^^

I can't tell you how sad I feel about using Lucian R on minions. Sivir is like "wat u doin?".

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

{quoted}

Not so sure about melee range Vayne, risk seems to outweigh reward.

I'd be pretty excited if Vayne got an ability that dealt more damage to targets facing away from her. You could use the stealth to trick them into facing the wrong direction.

It does look and sound really cool. Lucian in general is a Rule of Cool champion, everything he does is awesome. Not as awesome as Draven, but we can't all be Draven.

I can't tell you how sad I feel about using Lucian R on minions. Sivir is like "wat u doin?".

No rewards without some risk no? ^^

Too bad Shaco already has that passive (extra damage from behind). Sigh, another champion that stands thematically nowhere, although there might be a conncetion with Lulu and the Glade... But the idea for Vayne is actually not bad...

Hey, everyone could use some good dose of Draven ^^

It's not to be used ON minions. It's more like: "Oh, you want to hide behind them?! TOO BAD I WILL BLAST DOWN EVERYTHING THAT GET'S IN MY WAY! DIE!!!" - that's the reason behind the extra dmg ^^

windwolf7771 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EL6IRGvI,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-02-05T00:48:56.593+0000)

Also: tons of hidden power!

I'm sorry, how is it hidden? You see bats upon her activating it, her crossbow expand into view instead of the wrist launchers, and the massive star. And also about your flashy thing not all people want LC$BIGPLAYS!!!! Some people appreciate simpler things like steroid ultimates like Vayne's (like my other main MasterYi 's Highlander

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

{quoted}

I'm sorry, how is it hidden? You see bats upon her activating it, her crossbow expand into view instead of the wrist launchers, and the massive star. And also about your flashy thing not all people want LC$BIGPLAYS!!!! Some people appreciate simpler things like steroid ultimates like Vayne's (like my other main MasterYi 's Highlander

Sigh, it seems like you have no idea what the term "hidden power" in game design is. Let me explain it to you: stat boost that are actually invisible. You only see THAT there is a boost, not the actual strenght of it.

It's the same thing with Auras. They are useful, they are strong (especially when you do the math), but they're not "feeling" strong, nor can you actually do anything against it. The same thing with Vayne's special true damage: if your strenght is that there's no real counter to it, you might have fucked up as a designer. Especially since the Randuin's nerf.

The problem with steroids: They offer up to zero counterplay. You can't pervent someone form getting pumped. Also it adds nothing to you gameplay or reaction pattern. With Vayne if you ult you will continue doing the absolute same thing you did before: rolling around the teamfight while rightclicking enemies.

The special problem with the Vayne steroid: if she was kicking your as before, she will kick it now even harder since you can't get away due to the tripled bonus passive. You HAVE to fight with her and hope she actually fucks up something or has gravely miscalculated the situation. There is not a single thing you can do especially against her ultimate.

windwolf7771 votes

nor can you actually do anything against it

Kill the aura wielder?

Same for Vayne's true damage.... is that there's no real counter to it

Aside from the fact that it's on one of the squishiest adc's, dependant on her attack speed, thus attacking

steroids: They offer up to zero counterplay. You can't pervent someone form getting pumped.

So then why haven't Lucian LeeSinGnar been Olaf'd and are still top picks?? They ALL have buffs that apparently you "can't stop." However, you kinda can. You can use cc on them and prevent them from using their buffs??

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

{quoted}

Kill the aura wielder?

By this logic that's the counterplay to everything, right? You don't want Lee Sin to uck your team? Kill him! You don't wamt Warwick to ult your carry? Kill him before... Wow, I'm Impressed by this logic.

Aside from the fact that it's on one of the squishiest adc's, dependant on her attack speed, thus attacking

News Flash: ADC build has attack speed. I know, this might be surprising to you, but who would have known that Vayne runs a BORK almost every game? Mostly combined with a Phantom Dancer, somtimes a Stattik... or that one time I've seen a Vayne with a Hurricane...

So then why haven't Lucian LeeSinGnar been Olaf'd and are still top picks?? They ALL have buffs that apparently you "can't stop." However, you kinda can. You can use cc on them and prevent them from using their buffs??

Lucian Lucian doesn't have a single skill that's "I press button and now I'm strong"

LeeSin Well, we all know Riot loves Lee, no? ^^ Also his steroid is kinda tricky since its sustain (whooo hidden power!) I'm still for scrapping Lee's kit and reworking him into something that actually says "Blind Monk"... maybe with a vision mechanic similiar to Rek'Sai, who knows?

Gnar Lol. Please, let me laugh at you for a moment. As the enemy you know EXACTLY when Gnar is about to go into Mega Gnar. You can even take influence on it by poking (or deliberately not attacking). His sudden steroid is easy to avoid. You see him go red? Back off for 4 seconds and you're fine. Also he loses stats like speed, range and AS when going into Mega Gnar. It's less of a steriod but more of a stat trade.

Olaf Might be everything but not a viable pick in my eyes - after all "getting olafed" is already a phrase around here. Riot still has to figure out how to actually give melee champs well designed and snyergetic kits. Guess why Olaf is undertuned as he is now? Becuase if you buffed him he would be too broken. Either you can kite him to death, so he can't do anything. Or he murders you down with no chance for you to do anything against it.

Olaf only knows two modes: being a useless piece of shit OR murdering everything. Another case of a champ that needs a Reowrk

windwolf7771 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EL6IRGvI,comment-id=000100000001000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-06T18:51:19.383+0000)

By this logic that's the counterplay to everything, right? You don't want Lee Sin to uck your team? Kill him! You don't wamt Warwick to ult your carry? Kill him before... Wow, I'm Impressed by this logic.

Yup. WW ulti can be inturupted. I think they should change it where the damage stops if it's item 3140 'd however. Plus WW ulti makes him dive into the team, and actually have to survive to get the damage off. LS kicks the enemy into his team/turret, and can just dash out. (Assuming he put a ward which there's a 99% chance a good LeeSin would). Plus if Vayne dives into your team, with her squishy ass she's going to die and quickly. (Unless she goes some sort of bruiser build? Does Vayne ever do that?)

News Flash: ADC build has attack speed. I know, this might be surprising to you, but who would have known that Vayne runs a BORK almost every game? Mostly combined with a Phantom Dancer, somtimes a Stattik... or that one time I've seen a Vayne with a Hurricane...

Yes and? I'm saying that if you use ANY kind of CC that stops attacking, you stop the damage. item 3110 item 3143 say "Hi" (And just speaking curiously and off topic, was that before or after they changed her bolts to work with hurricane?)

Lucian Lucian doesn't have a single skill that's "I press button and now I'm strong"

R, and passive that triggers after any spell??

LeeSin Well, we all know Riot loves Lee, no? ^^ Also his steroid is kinda tricky since its sustain (whooo hidden power!) I'm still for scrapping Lee's kit and reworking him into something that actually says "Blind Monk"... maybe with a vision mechanic similiar to Rek'Sai, who knows?

That shouldn't matter though. However, I do think that LS is still bullshit how every jungler gets nerfed somehow and LS manages to safeguard every attempt to nerf.

Gnar Lol. Please, let me laugh at you for a moment. As the enemy you know EXACTLY when Gnar is about to go into Mega Gnar. You can even take influence on it by poking (or deliberately not attacking). His sudden steroid is easy to avoid. You see him go red? Back off for 4 seconds and you're fine. Also he loses stats like speed, range and AS when going into Mega Gnar. It's less of a steriod but more of a stat trade.

However, once he goes red you "Can't prevent it". I do understand what you're saying on him though.

Olaf Might be everything but not a viable pick in my eyes - after all "getting olafed" is already a phrase around here. Riot still has to figure out how to actually give melee champs well designed and snyergetic kits. Guess why Olaf is undertuned as he is now? Becuase if you buffed him he would be too broken. Either you can kite him to death, so he can't do anything. Or he murders you down with no chance for you to do anything against it.

Olaf only knows two modes: being a useless piece of shit OR murdering everything. Another case of a champ that needs a Reowrk

Again, let everything be overpowered, then nothing will be

Leti the Yeti1 votes

vaynes random power boost comes from her finally using that bigass crossbow on her back..

now then.. vayne sure has a similar backstory to bat man but she aint batman she is not all purpose gadget belt wearing champion with the martial arts skills

Lucian is the purifier, purging the undead.. shadow isle stuff Vayne is a hunter, she has this nice vampire hunter feel to her with the cross bow and silver and... condemn but she has nothing to do with the shadow isles

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

{quoted}

vaynes random power boost comes from her finally using that bigass crossbow on her back..

now then.. vayne sure has a similar backstory to bat man but she aint batman she is not all purpose gadget belt wearing champion with the martial arts skills

Lucian is the purifier, purging the undead.. shadow isle stuff Vayne is a hunter, she has this nice vampire hunter feel to her with the cross bow and silver and... condemn but she has nothing to do with the shadow isles

I know she has nothing to deal with the shadow isles... but if you're hunting evil witches and black magics it's not a far step to undead, ghouls and demons. And vampires are... undead.

And still, Lucian is occupying that hunter theme as well, while also being better at it. The Purifiers are classivied Demon hunters, crazy enough to even hunt on the Shadow Isles (bad idea, in hindsight)

Also, no, the massive crossbow on her back is used for her E. Do you really think a normal crossbow could slam someone into a wall like this?

But if it really was used in her ult, this would be thematically wrong. Oh hey, I'M USING A BIG ASS HEAVY WEAPON NOW THAT SHOULD CAUSE MASSIVE RECOIL. Yepp and that's why I'm faster, more agile and can turn invisible.

Also, if you read her lore, she actually has them. After her parents died she went to every single one who could teach her how to beat the shit out of a dark witch. Material Arts and unarmed combat would be the first thing to start I think...

Leti the Yeti1 votes

yep, thats 1 step too far yep, she uses her big crossbow her her E. Guess wot, it also becomes her primary weapon during her ult yep, bigger, cool, better crossbow makes you stronger, this is vidyo game logic yep, she's trained in combat... doesnt mean she has a batman utility belt

batman would likely be a person from piltover hextech batarangs and wut not...

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

{quoted}

yep, thats 1 step too far yep, she uses her big crossbow her her E. Guess wot, it also becomes her primary weapon during her ult yep, bigger, cool, better crossbow makes you stronger, this is vidyo game logic yep, she's trained in combat... doesnt mean she has a batman utility belt

batman would likely be a person from piltover hextech batarangs and wut not...

Yo, and guess who's Demacias number one ally? PILTOVER! Also, Demacia and Noxus are the biggest military factions in Valoran. It would be stupid to think they don't have their own tech and research group.

Let's face it. Rich kiddo full of vengefull thought going to the neighboring city, slams a ton of gold on the table and says "I DON'T GIVE A SHIT WHAT IT IS BUT AS LONG IT HELPS ME KILL WITCHES I PAY!". It will take like three seconds and she's fully equipped.

Do you really think technical progress is only limited to Piltover and Zaun while Demacia is somewhere stuck in the middle ages? Sure, they are still the most advenced ones, but that doesn't mean that basic technology isn't sold to allies - especially if someone is paying cold hard cash for it.

So by this agrument we could design every champ like shit and totall illogical because "Video Game Logic"? That's just like "Oh hey I'm too incompetent to think of something really awesome, let's go with the good olde excuse and call it a day."

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

bumps this Oh comeon, boards guys, how can you all be so uncreative? o.O No one else has an opinion to this? Or some idea?

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