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Malphite and Garen full damage builds

creatureplex··1 votes·2,820 views

I'm just going to flat out say it, has anyone realize how much damage a Garen and Malphite are doing now. Since when did these two champions become carries? Malphite going full ap, Garen going full ad, and me as a squishy adc no longer able to kite them meaning I can't 1 v 1 these two champions even though I should be able to considering they're tanky maybe bruisers, and that's exactly what marksman are supposed to be good against. Yet I find myself getting ulted and get deleted instantly by a Malphite. And Garen is just tapping me and killing me, like I'm just trying to figure out how this is balance? Because that seems very unfair to play against. Malphite and Garen are two very easy to use champions, their kits are two the easiest to learn kits in the game yet they're putting out the damage of an apc/adc and building like assassins and still managing to stay tanky.

I'm just flabbergasted at how effective it is. Like I feel honest to God that I'll never lose a lane if I just choose these two champions top lane and run with it. They're broken as fuck right now and I'm just wondering why riot is allowing this and why this hasn't been stopped yet. Honestly the first time I saw it I thought the Malphite and Garen were just cheating you know, but now it seems like the normal things to do is go full damage on these two tanky champions and win. It's ludicrous to me. I thought a bug or something but this last game put me at my boiling point given my whole team sucked but still the champions we're all fearing right now that takes all 5 of us coordinating against it to win are Garen and Malphite. Okay Lee Sin, Yasuo I get they're assassins they get fed they're broken. But honestly you can not tell me that Malphite new build and Garen's new build isn't broken as fuck right now.

Suggestions, nerf Garen's w and his passive and lower his base stats for health and armor/mr make him build tanky again.

Malphite, nerf his fucking ult already jesus christ, and while you're at it make his damn q a fucking skill shot instead of a go through the minions hit every time come on now? His ult is already game changing as it is, either that or how bout you buff Ashe's R to do as much damage and see how broken that is. I know he's not played so much but jesus come on riot wtf are you guys doing?

23 Comments

LanceTheJungler4 votes

Is an ADC supposed to be able to 1v1 those champions?

Sucction3 votes

Agree with a few points but want to add that no, you should not be 1v1ing Garen and coming out on top as an adc.

Malphite you could argue is a bit different since he's a tank, but he's specifically built to counter auto-attack based champions anyway.

I totally agree they shouldn't deal so much damage, Malphite especially should be building tank rather than bloody ap, but no, you should not be dueling them as an adc, that's crazy talk.

TheLastShaw1 votes

{quoted}

Agree with a few points but want to add that no, you should not be 1v1ing Garen and coming out on top as an adc.

Malphite you could argue is a bit different since he's a tank, but he's specifically built to counter auto-attack based champions anyway.

I totally agree they shouldn't deal so much damage, Malphite especially should be building tank rather than bloody ap, but no, you should not be dueling them as an adc, that's crazy talk.

Wrong the is no argument for Malphite, He's built to counter AD and has R no adc should ever win against him after 6. Because they litterly can't Kite his ult.

Sucction3 votes

{quoted}

Wrong the is no argument for Malphite, He's built to counter AD and has R no adc should ever win against him after 6. Because they litterly can't Kite his ult.

Ironically some ADCs do beat him, particularly Vayne since she's just fundamentally broken.

Helmight3 votes

If you nerf Garen's W and passive, he just continues to build full damage because he no longer has the ability to build defensively and feel good about it. He'd HAVE to build damage in order to be relevant. Your recommended changes would have the opposite of the effect you want. Prevent Garen from getting to you during the duration of his Q and you should have no problem with kiting him to oblivion.

Malphite meanwhile is not that big of a deal. If you know it's an AP Malphite (and that should be obvious by now), play safe, recall early, and know that he's going to go for an all-in the second he hits level 6. If he doesn't snowball, he won't be nearly as relevant as a tank Malphite.

Neither of these builds are broken - in fact, I would go so far as to say they're cheesy at worst and off-meta at best. Proper acknowledgement of what you're facing and counterplay will render both AD Garen and AP Malphite useless.

HideSide1 votes

{quoted}

If you nerf Garen's W and passive, he just continues to build full damage because he no longer has the ability to build defensively and feel good about it. He'd HAVE to build damage in order to be relevant. Your recommended changes would have the opposite of the effect you want. Prevent Garen from getting to you during the duration of his Q and you should have no problem with kiting him to oblivion.

Malphite meanwhile is not that big of a deal. If you know it's an AP Malphite (and that should be obvious by now), play safe, recall early, and know that he's going to go for an all-in the second he hits level 6. If he doesn't snowball, he won't be nearly as relevant as a tank Malphite.

Neither of these builds are broken - in fact, I would go so far as to say they're cheesy at worst and off-meta at best. Proper acknowledgement of what you're facing and counterplay will render both AD Garen and AP Malphite useless.

At least garen wont be so hard to kill. He already goes full dmg and even before rework it was the best option to go full dmg for hard impact on the game also how strong it was when you take into consideration that he build one tank item which could be even just maw giving CDR and AD + items like Sterak Dary's item and EoN and you was tanky enough with those free 50 mr and armor then you went 3 crit items, built boots and went 1v2, 1v3. When you was about to die you simply ran away.

About maplh, when he goes full ap then to go safe is the worst thing you can do since you are just going to be poked down. He will push you out of lane and then its all done for. Only option you can do is to kill him the first moment you can get to him which has to happen before he pushes you out of lane. For that specific gameplay you need someone who has it secured that malph wont run away and then simply farm under tower. So only champions that can catch and hold him until he dies or burst him can actually fight him. So darius, riven, maybe camille, kled, renekton and champions similar to them, who can secure earlygame kills. So, what you need first is proper counter pick not knowledge nor you will manage to do counterplay without them.

True Garen1 votes

{quoted}

At least garen wont be so hard to kill. He already goes full dmg and even before rework it was the best option to go full dmg for hard impact on the game also how strong it was when you take into consideration that he build one tank item which could be even just maw giving CDR and AD + items like Sterak Dary's item and EoN and you was tanky enough with those free 50 mr and armor then you went 3 crit items, built boots and went 1v2, 1v3. When you was about to die you simply ran away.

About maplh, when he goes full ap then to go safe is the worst thing you can do since you are just going to be poked down. He will push you out of lane and then its all done for. Only option you can do is to kill him the first moment you can get to him which has to happen before he pushes you out of lane. For that specific gameplay you need someone who has it secured that malph wont run away and then simply farm under tower. So only champions that can catch and hold him until he dies or burst him can actually fight him. So darius, riven, maybe camille, kled, renekton and champions similar to them, who can secure earlygame kills. So, what you need first is proper counter pick not knowledge nor you will manage to do counterplay without them.

He's not getting as much from going "full damage". The most AD item that he normally builds, that's actually a core item for him, is Sterak's (which has no AD stat at all, and is only good as a third item).

Consider that a Garen with a DMP does nearly as much damage on a full combo as a Garen with BC. TF has mostly replaced BC on Garen, because the sheen proc usually gives more damage than the extra AD (and now, for the AS, to complete his spin count).

Garen damage scalings are relatively low and semi-gated behind levels. HP is still his strongest scaling (or possibly MS). His Ultimate damage is completely unenhancable. "Full Damage" would be IE, and you won't normally see that on Garen unless he's already considerably ahead.

HideSide1 votes

[{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EJnmmndY,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2020-02-29T20:08:27.787+0000)

He's not getting as much from going "full damage". The most AD item that he normally builds, that's actually a core item for him, is Sterak's (which has no AD stat at all, and is only good as a third item).

Consider that a Garen with a DMP does nearly as much damage on a full combo as a Garen with BC. TF has mostly replaced BC on Garen, because the sheen proc usually gives more damage than the extra AD (and now, for the AS, to complete his spin count).

Garen damage scalings are relatively low and semi-gated behind levels. HP is still his strongest scaling (or possibly MS). His Ultimate damage is completely unenhancable. "Full Damage" would be IE, and you won't normally see that on Garen unless he's already considerably ahead.

Hmm...

is Sterak's (which has no AD stat at all, and is only good as a third item).

Gives 71 AD on lvl 18...

Sorry, I should say almost full dmg. I mean like item 3053 item 3078 item 3814 and then IE and Reaver + ghost blade instead of boots and you basically do 3,5K dmg to 100 armor dummy JUST on QE without any autoattacks nor R ( I did even 4,2K).

You do fkin 4K dmg while you have 3K HP, 129 armor and 92 MR. For doing this amount dmg you are tanky as fk. Its unacceptably high. And I dont have resolve runes. If I had then I would ahve another 17+ armor and 11+ MR and 200+ HP

EDIT: I did some tests and garen scale better with pure ad than than with AS items. Only exception is trinity cuz of that said sheen effect and that there is almost no difference in AD. So, by building AD items with HP he almost doesnt lose dmg while getting 50% bonus HP.

True Garen2 votes

{quoted}

Hmm...

Gives 71 AD on lvl 18...

Sorry, I should say almost full dmg. I mean like item 3053 item 3078 item 3814 and then IE and Reaver + ghost blade instead of boots and you basically do 3,5K dmg to 100 armor dummy JUST on QE without any autoattacks nor R ( I did even 4,2K).

You do fkin 4K dmg while you have 3K HP, 129 armor and 92 MR. For doing this amount dmg you are tanky as fk. Its unacceptably high. And I dont have resolve runes. If I had then I would ahve another 17+ armor and 11+ MR and 200+ HP

EDIT: I did some tests and garen scale better with pure ad than than with AS items. Only exception is trinity cuz of that said sheen effect and that there is almost no difference in AD. So, by building AD items with HP he almost doesnt lose dmg while getting 50% bonus HP.

Garen does scale with AD, but only moderately. His base AD is high, and his AD scalings are not for bonus. He's not intended to build much AD to scale. Sterak's is an excellent purchase for him, but only as 3rd item or later, relatively late game.

His strongest scalings from purchasable stats remain with HP. He does scale with AD but only moderately, at best. He scales much more with levels, than he does with AD. He's just a late-game champion, even after the rework.

His Ult scales with nothing at all. He could have the worst game imaginable, but he will still chunk for just as much HP at 25m.

Garen who builds two expensive crit items first is a glass cannon. He would need to be massively ahead to do that. You're talking full build, in your example. Riot really doesn't care what happens after 20m; they just want the game to be over, soon. You'd need to make a valid complaint about Garen being overpowered in the first 14m of the game, and he's relatively weak then. His main strength is lvls 11-16, and he doesn't fall off quite as hard as other Juggs after.

HideSide1 votes

[{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EJnmmndY,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2020-03-01T02:27:38.816+0000)

Garen does scale with AD, but only moderately. His base AD is high, and his AD scalings are not for bonus. He's not intended to build much AD to scale. Sterak's is an excellent purchase for him, but only as 3rd item or later, relatively late game.

His strongest scalings from purchasable stats remain with HP. He does scale with AD but only moderately, at best. He scales much more with levels, than he does with AD. He's just a late-game champion, even after the rework.

His Ult scales with nothing at all. He could have the worst game imaginable, but he will still chunk for just as much HP at 25m.

Garen who builds two expensive crit items first is a glass cannon. He would need to be massively ahead to do that. You're talking full build, in your example. Riot really doesn't care what happens after 20m; they just want the game to be over, soon. You'd need to make a valid complaint about Garen being overpowered in the first 14m of the game, and he's relatively weak then. His main strength is lvls 11-16, and he doesn't fall off quite as hard as other Juggs after.

Yes, he migh not be supposed to but he does it and he scales quite well with it otherwise he wouldnt do that much dmg. But as you said that, Riot doesnt care about game post 20th minute which is nice point. Well, despite it being true that garen is mainly scaling monster or at least was until now, he still is quite beast just with one or two items and by building item 3814 right after trinity he doesnt lose at all on dmg nor defense in comparison to PD. He is even better at both especially if those 25% dont crit often.

True Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Yes, he migh not be supposed to but he does it and he scales quite well with it otherwise he wouldnt do that much dmg. But as you said that, Riot doesnt care about game post 20th minute which is nice point. Well, despite it being true that garen is mainly scaling monster or at least was until now, he still is quite beast just with one or two items and by building item 3814 right after trinity he doesnt lose at all on dmg nor defense in comparison to PD. He is even better at both especially if those 25% dont crit often.

You're complaining, that a player who actually builds AD on a champion is doing damage.

A more legitimate complaint might be, that if he builds almost no AD, then he does almost as much damage. His AD scalings are relatively weak.

The guy had to make crit AND attacks speed, just so that you might actually FEEL his E spin. (People are used to just standing in it, harmlessly.)

HideSide1 votes

[{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EJnmmndY,comment-id=0004000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2020-03-01T15:36:01.504+0000)

You're complaining, that a player who actually builds AD on a champion is doing damage.

A more legitimate complaint might be, that if he builds almost no AD, then he does almost as much damage. His AD scalings are relatively weak.

The guy had to make crit AND attacks speed, just so that you might actually FEEL his E spin. (People are used to just standing in it, harmlessly.)

Actually you have the point but what I highlighted is the thing from the other way round. HE is allowed to be so tanky despite going for DMG. And hedoesnt have to build ANY as items beside trinity... Well, he even doesnt need to go for that much dmg... Whats the point or dmg you dont make use of? So you can just go for another tank item then you are tanky AF and do just right amount of dmg to kill everyone. But hey, yes this is correct

A more legitimate complaint might be, that if he builds almost no AD, then he does almost as much damag

And also you are telling me this?

His AD scalings are relatively weak.

After I did 4K to dummy JUST on QE (no AA nor R) with defensive stats that are good enough even for DMG soaking fronliner? If I built just one def item I would be way tankier since I had mainly lot of HP and my dmg would be lowered by 500? Maximally...

Pika Fox3 votes

If theyre full damage, they both die in a few hits. Hell, if malphite misses his ult, he just dies and does nothing. Hell, if his RWEQ only does 90% of your HP, he is useless. Really, its only great against players that cannot group or kite effectively, as theyre complete one trick poneys that just die before theyre useful in major content.

NemeBro3 votes

{quoted}

I can't 1 v 1 these two champions even though I should be able to

No you shouldn't. ADCs shouldn't be 1v1ing anything but supports and low damage non-armour scaling tanks.

Sucction1 votes

Would also like to add that...

Ashe's R does deal as much damage!

Provided you have the same build, it has identical scaling and a bit lower base damage.

HideSide1 votes

Well, the thing is that Garen builds almost full dmg. item 3814 item 3053 item 3071 He has just this and while killing everything on QER he has around 3K HP even before lvl 18 while having 30 armor and 30 MR from W and another full dmg items making him assassin. He just needs two of these two items to be quite tanky while doing tons of dmg. I played him for chest not long time ago and when I encountered someone I killed him when they had problem to kill me when I managed to build something. Malph, its the same case. He builds item 3027 item 3165 item 3152 and has enough HP combined with free armor that he doesnt have to care about tankiness anymore and builds full dmg. Which can be even combined with item 3040 which gives him shield as bonus tankiness as if there wasnt enough of defense.

Sucction2 votes

{quoted}

Well, the thing is that Garen builds almost full dmg. item 3814 item 3053 item 3071 He has just this and while killing everything on QER he has around 3K HP even before lvl 18 while having 30 armor and 30 MR from W and another full dmg items making him assassin. He just needs two of these two items to be quite tanky while doing tons of dmg. I played him for chest not long time ago and when I encountered someone I killed him when they had problem to kill me when I managed to build something. Malph, its the same case. He builds item 3027 item 3165 item 3152 and has enough HP combined with free armor that he doesnt have to care about tankiness anymore and builds full dmg. Which can be even combined with item 3040 which gives him shield as bonus tankiness as if there wasnt enough of defense.

Garen builds almost none of those items lol

HideSide1 votes

{quoted}

Garen builds almost none of those items lol

LOL, he has been doing so until his reword and its not bad even now especially when you play junle with item 3142 that enables you to gank lanes comfortably. + there is also trinity which is built by majority of garen players right now and that he "usually" doesnt build it doesnt mean that it is bad. Really vast majority copy from high elo korea without even thinking whether they are able to make use of it and whether it fit theyir playstyles. Whether it is really good... Everyone goes for example conq on fiora and take grasp only in so called "hard" matchups. Just by this hargument they prove themselves that conq actually doesnt help them since its usually when really help only when you actually cant win and it does something. Moreover, they just argue just conq vs grasp keystones, not whole tree. Nor they even see that using potential of grasp is more efficient than using that of conqueror, which gives you more space to do other things than just fighting. Nor they care about scaling and synergy with build.

You know. I am bronze 2 ( have never been lower than silver after placements but this time I end up in iron 2) and when I argue with classmates who have been plat 1 then they called me out that I am just bronze, what could I possibly know and when I called them out to prove them being correct then all they said was "Well, people mostly do it like this so it is like this how it should be." while showing me OP/u gg or saing "It it just happen to be like this." the end. And that was all and when I showed them what proved me being correct ( math, screenshots and etc. ) then they just restrained from the topic or just ignored it and kept saying what they had in the head. So, that garen doesnt build it doesnt mean that it is bad or even unusable on him. That ppl usually do something doesnt mean that it is correct!

Sucction1 votes

My point wasn't that it's good or bad. My point is that Garen doesn't buy BC or EoN in any situation. Garen always goes Trinity into PD/Shiv due to his large attack speed scaling. Steraks is viable on him but not common.

HideSide1 votes

{quoted}

My point wasn't that it's good or bad. My point is that Garen doesn't buy BC or EoN in any situation. Garen always goes Trinity into PD/Shiv due to his large attack speed scaling. Steraks is viable on him but not common.

Ok, my bad, but you cant tune champ around some fact that ppl dont abuse his powers like building such items...

Edit: I did a few tests yesterday and he really doesnt have that big AS scaling. Its even better to build twice infinity edge... Nor he lose on dmg even when he trades some crit for lethality (item 3814 ) which also gives him really good tankiness. Spellshield with 40 CDr combined with 300HP is way way better than some 250-600 Shield. Especially on lower levels.

943721481 votes

Tanks and juggernauts have to do this much damage because riot decided to make assassins assassinate everyone no matter how fed they are so now everyone has to be an assassin or be useless.

creatureplex1 votes

Bottom line I'm not laning against these 2 they up top or jungle I'm an adc. Before garen built this way he wasn't a sure win but I could kite him manageable. Before malphite built this he was still extremely annoying now it's just outright bullshit. He's a tank but I feel I'm fighting an assassin when he's playing. I'm farming he ults from left field dead. I can't react that fast jeez. Before malphite didn't ult and kill me. Now he's ulting deleting one person. Then 20 seconds later ulting their is no counter play to that shit. I ain't going have shit for mr by the time malphite hits level 6. And because of his armor passive and wheel that can't miss it allows him to be a lane bully as well. So yeah garen and malphite need some fucking nerds cuz it's getting ridiculous and it's not fun to play against. Until then I'm afraid I'm going to have to dodge everytime enemy team selects one of these 2. I would just ban them but honestly they aren't being played enough to justify a ban. Just sucks to have a losing streak end and made to look like I'm a total noob getting owned by a fucking malphite.

WeaselGod1 votes

{quoted}

Bottom line I'm not laning against these 2 they up top or jungle I'm an adc. Before garen built this way he wasn't a sure win but I could kite him manageable. Before malphite built this he was still extremely annoying now it's just outright bullshit. He's a tank but I feel I'm fighting an assassin when he's playing. I'm farming he ults from left field dead. I can't react that fast jeez. Before malphite didn't ult and kill me. Now he's ulting deleting one person. Then 20 seconds later ulting their is no counter play to that shit. I ain't going have shit for mr by the time malphite hits level 6. And because of his armor passive and wheel that can't miss it allows him to be a lane bully as well. So yeah garen and malphite need some fucking nerds cuz it's getting ridiculous and it's not fun to play against. Until then I'm afraid I'm going to have to dodge everytime enemy team selects one of these 2. I would just ban them but honestly they aren't being played enough to justify a ban. Just sucks to have a losing streak end and made to look like I'm a total noob getting owned by a fucking malphite.

Just like you having no MR by level 6 malphite has no major AP items by level 6 to actually dish out any damage to do anything outside of ult you for 300 damage. Unless youre playing support top under leveled by like 4 levels there no way you should be dying by one ability dealing 300 damage. Yes malphite has a shield, but its an extremely small shield that still has a cooldown. Literally all you have to do is autoattack once every now and then and he will never get his shield back. Not only this but he also has mana issues. Is he spamming his Q? Great, he can use it maybe 6 times in lane and then has to either recall or stick around and wait for his mana to regen, this is when you harass the fuck out of him.

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