Scarra "lucian assassinates people faster than I can... I dont play assassins anymore"

SquashCannon·May 11, 2017·49 votes·3,176 views

And with the introduction of a surprisingly strong RUSHABLE for certain bully carries like draven and lucian, not only can they outperform their ad assassin counterparts, but they also are guaranteed extreme safety of having to be killed twice on top of their range (and in lucian's case mobility) which assassins dont have.

One could argue assassins can rush ga, but the problem is that assassins dont rely on their auto attacks like adcs do, so while adcs are fine with just ad, assassins need to satiate their CDR requirements which they cant do with a GA.

ADCs are terribly strong right now, but I dont think it is an adc problem, I think its an itemizatin problem.

Also, shoutout to the amazing 100 gold bork nerf, it did a lot.

61 Comments

devdev463May 11, 201710 votes

Assassins definitely like flat ad more than adcs do.... What are you smoking? Adcs need attack speed, crit chance, ad, and penetration to maximize their dps, while an assassin only needs ad and penetration to make their abilities hit hard, hence why they get more out of just ad.

SquashCannonMay 11, 20177 votes

{quoted}

Assassins definitely like flat ad more than adcs do.... What are you smoking? Adcs need attack speed, crit chance, ad, and penetration to maximize their dps, while an assassin only needs ad and penetration to make their abilities hit hard, hence why they get more out of just ad.

Not true, early game assasins rely on AD and more importantly stacking up CDR so they can do their combos more often and faster. They also need to stack up on armor pen to be able to reliably deal more damage.

ADCs like Lucian or draven don't NEED AS early game at all, nor crit. Their scalings and base kits allow them to do perfectly fine with good ole flat AD in the early game. And their ranged nature makes them a lot safer than melee assassins in the early game.

Even qtpie has jumped on the lucian + GA first buy bandwagon.

devdev463May 11, 20178 votes

{quoted}

Not true, early game assasins rely on AD and more importantly stacking up CDR so they can do their combos more often and faster. They also need to stack up on armor pen to be able to reliably deal more damage.

ADCs like Lucian or draven don't NEED AS early game at all, nor crit. Their scalings and base kits allow them to do perfectly fine with good ole flat AD in the early game. And their ranged nature makes them a lot safer than melee assassins in the early game.

Even qtpie has jumped on the lucian + GA first buy bandwagon.

Lucian and draven are the exception, not the rule. Lucian is closer to an assassin in that he like an assassin can prioritize damage with his abilities over an aa focus if he wishes, and draven doesn't need attack speed because his autos are limited by his q.

This means these guys don't need the typical items that other adcs need in order to start actually doing damage, but a normal adc like jinx for example needs crit items to spike and do damage that isn't laughable. If you try to go GA before your second or third item on most adcs anyone with armor boots will laugh at you in teamfights. They can go for an early GA but because of how synergistic adc items are with each other they need the items together to start doing good damage.

Again this does not apply to all adcs religiously, it is simply how it works for most adcs that favor crit as their most viable build path, which is quite a few of them.

chipndip1May 11, 20176 votes

So which is it?

Do we want assassins with some form of counter-play before they insta-wreck us, or do we want assassins with insanely front-loaded damage so they kill us before we can even react with normal human reaction times? Which is it?

9Wly9oMl02May 11, 201715 votes

Where did anyone complain that assassins now have counterplay? The complaint is that ADCs are too bursty.

chipndip1May 11, 20176 votes

Literally that's what Lucian does, though. He combos his kit into your face. That isn't ALL adcs though...that's just Lucian.

9Wly9oMl02May 11, 20173 votes

I agree. But how again does that equate to him saying assassins aren't bursty enough?

chipndip1May 11, 20179 votes

He says "Lucian bursts people better than assassins, thus I don't play assassins anymore". It's reasonable to assume that he thinks assassins are weak rather than Lucian's strong, otherwise he'd say "Lucian bursts people better than assassins, thus FUCKING NERF LUCIAN RIOT."

9Wly9oMl02May 11, 20172 votes

I don't think he is saying they're too weak. Just that other things, like Lucian, burst people faster with more safety. So there's no point in trying to compete against it with an assassin. Just how I take it. Sure, he didn't say nerf Lucian, but he also didn't say buff assassins lol.

SquashCannonMay 11, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lace Up,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EHhAskgw,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-11T21:42:05.542+0000)

I don't think he is saying they're too weak. Just that other things, like Lucian, burst people faster with more safety. So there's no point in trying to compete against it with an assassin. Just how I take it. Sure, he didn't say nerf Lucian, but he also didn't say buff assassins lol.

Why dont you two check out the 40th episode of BTR and decide for yourselves. Within it's context I think it applies to all meta ADCs right now (lucian, draven, caitlyn, etc.), he just used lucian because he's the best example. The problem lies with over-buffing crit items in the latest patch and riot's refusal to legitimately tune down BorK (100 more gold cost doesn't do shit).

Voluug13May 12, 20171 votes

On the other hand, assassins at Scarra's level, and specially AD assassins, need to have close to no counterplay to be effective thanks to the extreme coordination of the setting.

ModCaptainMårvelousMay 11, 20173 votes

See, nobody cares about assassins being good. They just don't want anyone to be able to burst anyone down because "it's not fun" or "it feels bad". Why do you think there's such an outcry whenever assassins are strong? (Even when ADCs abuse their items more than the actual assassins. lethality, anyone?)

NineTailedMysticMay 12, 20173 votes

Nobody likes Assassins when they're strong because when you died to them, the question was "what could I have done there?". The answer is always "not be there". People want, and are used to, be able to outplay their enemies if they're skilled enough and strong Assassins don't allow that.

ModCaptainMårvelousMay 12, 20174 votes

Correction, the answer is usually "Do something different about ten seconds ago" before you realized the assassin is. You can outplay an assassin but it requires a level of foresight most players don't possess. It's why most assassins are not played at a high level unless they're strong enough to assassinate someone with the smallest window of counterplay. (See: Kha or Rengar)

A strong assassin will capitalize on you at your weakest and leave the smallest or no room for counterplay. It can still be outplayed, sure, but it requires you to make smart predictions and be aware of your surroundings. Hence why getting wrecked by an assassin makes people made "Ugh what could I have done!?" Well nothing there. But twenty seconds ago? Probably back up and be ready for Talon to all-in you.

NineTailedMysticMay 12, 20175 votes

Exactly. Not be there :^).

chipndip1May 12, 20173 votes

So the long form of what the other guy said? How is this a correction?

GayFluffyUnicornMay 12, 20171 votes

Fun fact, in my last flex Q game, according to the death recap, riven killed me in 0,86 secs for 3200 dmg yet it's the assassins who kill us fast? Just saying. The only problematic champs imo were talon, who you only couldn't react to because of his stealth. Eve because hehexd her stealth. Shaco hehehehehehehehe stealth btw. And i can't even think of any assassin with "insanely front-loaded damage". Leblanc maybe but did her rework change any of it? I don't enjoy playing against her more than before but i sure as hell don't enjoy playing her myself anymore ANd she needs less skill than before. Katarina had more counterplay before. Zed is the same. Talon idk. I have no opinion on him tbh. I feel there hasn't been much of a change besides he now has to hit abilities like his W before actually dealing dmg, okay. Shaco overall has had less counterplay than before. But certainly all of them had and still have counterplay for everyone with the average human reaction time.

Now let's take a look at non assassins: Adcs for example who either pop out of stealth and killyou in less than a second from 1k range (hi twitch), who pop out of stealth and kills you in a tumble and auto (hi vayne), who walk up towards you and burst with enough mobility to avoid any spell you could throw at them if not point and click (hi lucian).

The likes of irelia and fiora who if slightly ahead literally oneshot you with no counterplay (riven included).

Yet you are trying to tell us as does riot that tanks and assassins were problematic? Or to better phrase it: MORE problematic than those cases i mentioned?

RainfallMay 11, 20174 votes

Riot's "Reworks" were never meant to be reworks,its all part of Meddler's masterplan to make the game as simplistic as possible. he garbaged assasins and now he garbaged tanks.rip item 3068 Get on the excuse train: Specialists are bad for the game thats why we turned every assasin in a bruiser. Generalists are also bad for the game thats why we nerfed them as well.

Ben SharpioMay 11, 20176 votes

make the game as simplistic as possible

Reminder that this whole thing started with the stupid as fuck jungle rework (S7).

MunchCrunchLunchMay 11, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Corsair Sion,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EHhAskgw,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-05-11T16:55:40.478+0000)

Reminder that this whole thing started with the stupid as fuck jungle rework (S7).

no it started with making 80% of games get decided early game.

UnpaladinMay 11, 20179 votes

No. Riot began making the game simplistic back in Season 6, when they suddenly became hellbent on shortening games to give LCS appeal. Changes were made with increasingly less thought put into them as time went on, leading us only to ruin. The game has been warped almost beyond recognition.

DivewingMay 11, 201710 votes

Which is a shame really because while Season 5 was not perfect, and it's execution in some places was awful (jugg update IMMEDIATELY before worlds), once the dust settled basically every change that season was a good one.

Then Season 6 dumped all over it

SpecterVonBarenMay 12, 20178 votes

Patch before the juggernaut patch was the most balanced state the game has ever been in.

MelledoneusMay 12, 20172 votes

It actually started in patch 5.4, with the infamous 3 AD nerf to Warrior enchant during Jarvan and Rek'sai's rampage and Nidalee's AP fomination.

AzureeeMay 11, 20171 votes

^ This the games become fucked up and worst since these constant class reworks, alienating mains off champions and ruining a champion for many.

SquashCannonMay 11, 20171 votes

{quoted}

^ This the games become fucked up and worst since these constant class reworks, alienating mains off champions and ruining a champion for many.

Usually there's at least ONE champion that goes away feeling better for both sides of the equation.

Darius comes to mind with the juggernaut update, vladimir, love him or hate him, is much more easily balanceable after his update in the MYMU. The tank update however, I don't think there's a single success case in the tank update. They all seem to be failures right now. Zac shows some promise since his kit is fair, though his numbers are incredibly low.

I can't speak on the marksman update, all I remember of those days was kindred and graves absolutely fucking everything up within a 100 mile radius.

WyrmbladeMay 11, 20172 votes

Sejuani is actually solid and well done despite early whining.

Voluug13May 12, 20171 votes

Her gameplay is trash and gated behind having a melee strong team. Her numbers are overtuned and once she gets nerfed into hell, she will disappear even harder that when they sejuani'ed sejuani.

WyrmbladeMay 12, 20171 votes

She can consistently proc her E solo very easily. She's not reliant on melee, it's just a bonus.

ModCaptainMårvelousMay 11, 20174 votes

Implying the boards has any problem with assassins being dumpstered.

JbelsMay 11, 20173 votes

It's almost like giving a strongly defensive item a build path and stats that any AD champion can abuse was a bad idea. Hmmmm

chipndip1May 11, 20172 votes

Same with the spell shield, but in the other direction.

TwitchInMyPantsMay 12, 20172 votes

Can we reduce the AD a bit but keep the price low? This thing is carry exclusive and is meant for the ones falling behind now. If people are abusing it to stomp when ahead it's overtuned but this item has a very important role for characters with no mobility to not be free food.

GeshultzMay 12, 20172 votes

Assassins as a class are fine looking at statistics. Scarra is over exaggerating how weak assassins are. https://na.op.gg/champion/statistics

Kassadin 52.98% winrate\15.31% pickrate Fizz 50.36% winrate\4.99% pickrate Katarina 49.95% winrate\5.88% pickrate Talon 49.71% winrate\5.41% pickrate Ekko 48.93% winrate\7.14% pickrate Akali 48.93% winrate\0.7% pickrate Leblanc 48.79% winrate\6.26% pickrate Zed 46.4% pickrate\ 8.96% pickrate

Overall as a class the only 2 ones you could arguable are weak are zed and akali but other then that the rest of assassin class is either strong or balanced at the moment. Meaning overall by statistics the assassin class is fine.

AD champs onlyMay 12, 20172 votes

NA Boards in a nutshell:

ADCs are weak. Maokai oneshots suqishies Assassins are out of control ADCs are strong. Nerf lee sin Lucian bursts people. Assassins are weak

Like, people WTF. Im tired of seeing these topics every.fucking.day.

ADC cannot be WEAK. Auto Attacking me from a distance for a half of my HP is not weak and will never be. It is broken. Maokai is an AP tank that is hard to balance. (in fact i hate tanks, that class is so fucking retarded and broken) Assassins are not out of control. They are doing their job. It's your bad because you're trying to make a big plays by 1v1ing an assasin as an adc. ADCs ARE strong. As i said. Shredding my HP from a distance while i use my gapcloser to get knocked back is BROKEN. Vayne Vayne Vayne Vayne Vayne Lee Sin will be nerfed. But not a nerf from our dreams. Probably nerfing some pointless shit. Like reducing his base hp from 571 to 569.. Yes. He does. But as soon as they take away 5 damage from his Q people will complain how he is weak af. Assasins are weak. Yes. Because you're trying to assassinate a tank.

I think i have answered all the questions on these forums. For fuck sake.

ShablagooMay 12, 20171 votes

Ppl say Assassins are out of control and Adc's are weak? What are some ppl on nowadays

AD champs onlyMay 12, 20171 votes

I dont know... If bursting me down from a distance is weak then imma stop playing this game asap.

deadlychuckMay 12, 20171 votes

Assassins by design are impossible to balance, they need to redefine the class into something else, that isn't about "assassinating", aka killing people, like most every other class in the game.

AnidanMay 12, 20176 votes

Yes, by all means let's turn League into a pillow fight contest because no one can have the role of "damage" because it's "impossible to balance."

The reality is that assassins are possible to balance, but League doesn't have the balls to do it and the players whine if an assassin can actually do their job without needing to hit you with their crutches to do it. Assassins are impossible to balance only because the playerbase complains anytime the assassin can actually do their job, whether the damage is instant or drawn out.

There's a difference between "impossible to balance" and "I don't want to deal with them"

deadlychuckMay 12, 20171 votes

There is a difference between "assassinating" and "damage".

An assassination implies that the target dies. You can't balance assassins around the fantasy of an assassins, because it's inherently binary by nature. Either they will be useless in a game because they're unable to preform their role or they will be busted because they can.

And mind you, every class in the game is about killing people, but they aren't as shallow as simply that, like assassins. They preform a role in the process of killing people.

You can create a game which isn't a "pillow fight" which involves more than a single rotation of spells in a 1v1, then only class which wouldn't fit into such a model is assassins. Yet people will act as if no one would ever and you'd never see any action in a game with such a model, except that lowering the risk of a champion having the ability to 100-0 someone (involving any 2 classes) would actually encourage more reckless and risky behavior, by lowering the inherent risk of pushing an enemy to the point of no return. As it stands now in many lanes, that point is achieved by a single kill advantage, which makes players who are concerned with losing extremely cautious. If they make a single mistake, they can often the only course of action is to play passive until the mid game, because the enemy will achieve their lethal threshold, which leaves you nothing but reactive play, as any risks you take are exceedingly high for the rewards you might gain.

VallalanMay 12, 20171 votes

adc itemization changes were overall very good and healthy. the crit changes left a good choice between 1 item spike at bork and strong two item spike and IE /zeal. and there is a real trade off now where it ALWAYS felt better to go bork > zeal item.

that said, GA is a stupid item. and death's dance is sleeper broken once people realize all you have to do is combine it with BT for a nearly unkillable adc who can face tank two people no problem.

SaiannaMay 12, 20171 votes

That what happens when Riot enforces ADCs for past 5 seasons.

SlimegoonMay 12, 20171 votes

In the same vayne (sorry, had to), Draven is becoming a problem due to recent changes to items. His 50.68% win in 7.7 has skyrocketed to 52.93% in 2 patches, and is up to around 55% with experienced players. I played against a Draven with item 3047 item 3812 item 3046 item 3026 the other day and it was just sick. Crazy life-steal, damage converted to a DoT, tanky as hell, and with GA to go with it. He was far from the best Draven, yet could drop anyone in 2-3 axes.

This is the problem with balancing champs around items.

GayFluffyUnicornMay 12, 20171 votes

Had the same lovely experience. Same build but he had a botrk on top of it. I was 6 items GP with over 300 ad. He also head a bt shield on him. It was impossble to kill him. He not only straight up healed everything back but also didn't receive any meaningful dmg. One crit barrel dealt 20% hp.

GULAG 4 UMay 12, 20171 votes

das y u one shot him with 1 triforce, 3 ie, 1 ldr+one rapid fire cannon GP xdxd

Kappa

ProfirixMay 12, 20171 votes

Being able to rush item 3026 and get good stat efficiency is a problem and here is why:

GA was balanced around being a late game purchase, where the revival passive could be blown up with excessive damage due to team presence, late game scalings, and the inability to revive successfully if your team lost the teamfight. Early GA provides damage protection from your opposing carry, additional damage (almost a B.F. sword), and a revival passive that almost never is punished because you blow all of your cooldowns trying to kill them the first time (and this is early game when your cooldowns are long enough that they can revive and run away before you can punish them again).

TL;DR - Rushing GA gives the purchaser a major advantage during laning phase, a place and time where GA was not designed to exist.