So I just saw probably the most valid point I have ever seen

Jefftiffy·Mar 16, 2017·2 votes·1,132 views

who's ult is on a 160s CD at level 16 and a 200s CD at level 6 is 100% countered by which has a 45s CD. You can literally just pop the active in the middle of Karthus ult channel and he can't do anything.

So now he has to deal with . I am seriously questioning how his win rate hasn't tanked extremely hard. In upper levels of play it seems like so many items counter his ult that if you are smart enough to stay out of his range and not stand in him when dies that he is literally useless.

15 Comments

CatastropMar 16, 20174 votes

Because Karthus isn't just his ult. You people need to stop scapegoating Karthus for random crap without knowing where the champion's true strengths lie.

And just to clarify, I still believe EoN is busted, just don't agree with this incessant need to use Karthus when discussing the item.

ParoeMar 16, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Because Karthus isn't just his ult. You people need to stop scapegoating Karthus for random crap without knowing where the champion's true strengths lie.

it lies in his ult. Thats why hes balanced around it.

JefftiffyMar 16, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Because Karthus isn't just his ult. You people need to stop scapegoating Karthus for random crap without knowing where the champion's true strengths lie.

And just to clarify, I still believe EoN is busted, just don't agree with this incessant need to use Karthus when discussing the item.

You do realize his kit is entirely useless until you get item 3116 . If you rush it you are automatically going to have mana issues. So your first item has to be item 3027 or item 3070 . And if you rush you are going to lose a lot of defensive stats on a close range champion.

I know Karthus's kit is good, but against a competant team or a coordinated one he falls apart without abusing items. And he hasn't even been buffed to make up for the nerfs to his core items and introduction of new counters. If you whittle him down and kill him without going balls deep with no escape he literally can't do anything. His Q requires him to stop to do his damage, his E is outranged by most mages and ADCs. And his passive requires people to be dumb enough to stand near him while he is dead. The saving grace of his kit is actually his W. It sets up his entire kit, but if it's down he loses to most ranged champs.

Karthus is a zone denial champ which quite honestly feels like a worse Anivia or Ziggs who don't have to get in close to deny areas. Their kit isn't reliant on dying in the middle of the enemy team to do damage. Although at least Ziggs is relatively inconsistent. Their kits are about poking them down or blowing them up from a distance which doesn't involve dying and giving the enemy 300+g.

If you look at his win rate it is all over the place. Its either stupidly low or reaching 70%. That is how inconsistent his kit is even in high elos and Ziggs is seen as inconsistent and has his in a much smaller range with a higher popularity.

Trash MammaIMar 16, 20172 votes

I think the main issue is people don't think his ult should be so weak/have such a high CD when there's a billion ways to counter it easily.

Illâoi Evê SiônMar 16, 20171 votes

Just because it can be countered doesn't mean it will be countered. People make mistakes. Some situations don't allow you to counter. Skill shots can be dodged. They won't always be dodged. Towers can focus minions first but sometimes you walk too far ahead and take a hit or two.

JefftiffyMar 16, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Just because it can be countered doesn't mean it will be countered. People make mistakes. Some situations don't allow you to counter. Skill shots can be dodged. They won't always be dodged. Towers can focus minions first but sometimes you walk too far ahead and take a hit or two.

You can't balance around people making mistakes on stupid simple kits. That's how you get Jhin and Ziggs . It breeds champs who are ok in bad hands and god like in pro/experienced hands.

Illâoi Evê SiônMar 16, 20171 votes

Yes, but you can't only balance around people not making mistakes either because that creates champions who stomp players who do make mistakes.

With Karthus' ult on such a long cooldown you can at least wait for the perfect situation to use it. You can also create that situation. You don't have to rely on enemies' mistakes. But if they do show up, you can make use of them.

(a bit of an aside, but shouldn't this issue be a mute point when talking about Karthus at the moment because he's stable?)

JefftiffyMar 16, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Yes, but you can't only balance around people not making mistakes either because that creates champions who stomp players who do make mistakes.

With Karthus' ult on such a long cooldown you can at least wait for the perfect situation to use it. You can also create that situation. You don't have to rely on enemies' mistakes. But if they do show up, you can make use of them.

(a bit of an aside, but shouldn't this issue be a mute point when talking about Karthus at the moment because he's stable?)

He isn't look at his win rates across all elos. It balances out overall, but in day by day its all over the place. It drops to 30% some days and other days it is 70% and most days it is about 40-55%. I mean even if you tap into gold it still goes crazy. He literally is being played as niche and there is no one really standing by him anymore and even with them the win rate goes all over the damn place.

A Basic IslandMar 16, 20173 votes

by the time EoN is finished karthus isnt ulting for random kills anymore

he's gonna ult before/during a teamfight after dying. AFYER dying, nobody is gonna have EoN still up (if they do they're a fool)

Before the fight if they all pop it to prevent the damage, now they're all open to cc

Lil Lewd WitchMar 16, 20173 votes

Look at it this way.

There is a baron fight about to go down 5v5
Karthus Pops Ult
Enemy team either mitigates damage or eats the damage
Lower HP or no Defense items for ensuing team fight.

Everyone thinks he is a finisher/clean up champion when you can do just as much with the ult at the start of a fight rather than at the end. I just did a game with him the other day and found a lot of success in using my ult in assisting my jungler's ganks on Top and Bottom lane. Tossing in an extra few hundred damage into a fight makes a big difference.

JefftiffyMar 16, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Look at it this way.

There is a baron fight about to go down 5v5

Karthus Pops Ult

Enemy team either mitigates damage or eats the damage

Lower HP or no Defense items for ensuing team fight.

Everyone thinks he is a finisher/clean up champion when you can do just as much with the ult at the start of a fight rather than at the end. I just did a game with him the other day and found a lot of success in using my ult in assisting my jungler's ganks on Top and Bottom lane. Tossing in an extra few hundred damage into a fight makes a big difference.

Except you forget that how many items are good at mitigating damage at the start of fights: item 3814 item 3102 item 3190 item 3157 . 2 of which are in almost every game. 1 of which depending on who is the mid lane. And let's stay 3 people build then his team cannot fight for another 160s because he literally cannot hurt 3 people with his ult and their cds are going to be back up way before his.

And this is just taking into account items. Factor in Fizz Bard Lissandra TahmKench Janna Karma Galio Morgana Sivir Nocturne Fiora Elise Maokai Kayle Vladimir Shaco Zilean and many more that hard counter him it looks a lot more bleak.

Illâoi Evê SiônMar 16, 20171 votes

Edge of Night really is just power-creep on Banshee's Veil's passive. You can't even argue that they have different target groups because Banshee's used to be bought for its spell-shield (defense) by carries and now they can just buy another offense item instead.

Tanks are unaffected directly when picking up Banshee's themselves, but indirectly they're affected by the more powerful option of Edge of Night that carries are now picking up (which buffs carries and nerfs Tanks).

I know Edge of Night was "nerfed" into a semi-balanced state already, but I still wonder if the item should even exist.

JefftiffyMar 16, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Edge of Night really is just power-creep on Banshee's Veil's passive. You can't even argue that they have different target groups because Banshee's used to be bought for its spell-shield (defense) by carries and now they can just buy another offense item instead.

Tanks are unaffected directly when picking up Banshee's themselves, but indirectly they're affected by the more powerful option of Edge of Night that carries are now picking up.

I know Edge of Night was "nerfed" into a semi-balanced state already, but I still wonder if the item should even exist.

It really shouldn't exist.

Items that should have never been made in their states that they are or left the game: Atma's, item 3814 , item 3146 (active scaling needs to be nerfed or the base damage), item 3053 (needs to be based off bonus hp for the shield), item 3508 (30% CDR on an item made for ADCs is kind of overpowered when they are supposed to be spamming AAs not spells).

ChaddyFantomeMar 16, 20171 votes

The only time this is valid is if : a) the champion wasnt in combat and thus able to use it b) the champion didn't use it in a fight or engagement to begin with. c) Karthus saved his ult and used it 7 years later just to secure the kill liek a greedy mofo as opposed to pressuring and providing damage for the whole team.

YumaS2AstralMar 16, 20171 votes

At this point is better to just use Karthus' ult as a means of poking enemies before a teamfight, or to bait enemies spellshields/zhonyas so that the rest of your team can freely use their most important abilities

Karthus' ult just isn't reliable to use as a means to finish off enemies anymore.