If juggernauts had items that covered all their potential weaknesses, how would you feel facing one?

Tychusfindlay918·Sep 9, 2017·63 votes·3,376 views

Would you feel the way I do as when an ADC:

#1 gets to cockblock a reset if he gets caught? #2 gets so that he doesn't have to worry about having a lower base MS than me so he doesn't even get caught in the first place? #3 gets so that their damage over time doesn't get fucked by my heavy sustain with decimate? #4 gets and/or and/or so that they're not as squishy as they're supposed to be and I can't reliably gut them when I get in their range? #5 gets so they don't have to deal with the idea of being near me?

Damn. Imagine if I had items that covered weaknesses like that while STILL amplifying my strength. Imagine running around with something like "the deadmans cleaver", a neat contraption of fused together.

90 Comments

XxxLumberJackxxXSep 9, 201718 votes

You left out the worst offenders. Shiv an runanaans. No burst or waveclear? And. Single target focused? We can fix that

DemainaNyxSep 10, 20175 votes

Because people like Fiora don't build Tiamat for the same reason.

statelesskillerSep 10, 20172 votes

im told fiora builds tiamat because it makes up for her wave clear issues, but mostly because she can get lots of tiamat procs off her resets mainly

DemainaNyxSep 10, 20175 votes

Exactly, which is what the original post was talking about.

ADCs with no waveclear can build Runaan's or Shiv to make up for that issue.

Brusiers can do the same with Tiamat and get a free auto in when using the active, which is extra burst they wouldn't normally have in their kit. Some Brusiers can even use Tiamat's Active to break them out of animations, which again increases their burst.

SpoofghoulSep 11, 20171 votes

perhaps but as a bruiser i have to be like on top of the wave to clear it

as a ranged champion you can do it from safety which makes a big difference

PePsiLemoNNSep 9, 201715 votes

Someone's salty.

341123545652Sep 9, 20178 votes

{quoted}

Someone's salty.

someone plays the easy role

PePsiLemoNNSep 9, 201721 votes

If by the ''easy role'' you mean ADC then you're wrong. It's not an ''easy role'' and I don't play it :^)

Mens Hair ClubSep 10, 20177 votes

ADC isn't particularly difficult either, unless you're playing Draven Kalista Kindred Vayne

skyskee008Sep 10, 201710 votes

Literally the games objective has changed from the nexus to killing the ADC. Definitely not an easy role.

Supreme Senpai69Sep 10, 20177 votes

Yea honestly ADC is insanely difficult. Not in the micro of it; you literally just right click. But you have to constantly keep in the back of your head that everybody on the enemy team's entire purpose is to kill you specifically. Between assassins, divers, enemy supports, etc. It's really difficult to stay alive. Especially when you just explode when anybody else looks at you since you don't build defensive.

Like mistep once and you lose the game.

OtterlyLostSep 10, 20176 votes

[{quoted}](name=Supreme Senpai69,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EEMnWaZi,comment-id=000300000000000000000001,timestamp=2017-09-10T09:51:02.414+0000)

Yea honestly ADC is insanely difficult. Not in the micro of it; you literally just right click. But you have to constantly keep in the back of your head that everybody on the enemy team's entire purpose is to kill you specifically. Between assassins, divers, enemy supports, etc. It's really difficult to stay alive. Especially when you just explode when anybody else looks at you since you don't build defensive.

Like mistep once and you lose the game.

This pretty much. :/ Anyone who says "ADC is EZ" is someone who hasn't spent months playing ADC.

Also, how dare ADC's be able to deal with Juggernauts in the way Juggernauts are meant to be dealt with. -_- The horror upon horror, having an ADC kite and stay out of your range to wittle you down. Nevermind the fact that Juggernauts are literally just tanks who still get to do massive amounts of damage because their kits give them free stats or ridiculous AD scalings. :/ And its not like they don't have items that give them tons of MS and have kits that enable them to chase extremely affectively. There's not item 3071 item 3078 item 3025 item 3022 item 3742 item 3800 item 3111 or item 3009 item 3143 item 3512 . I appreciate how none of these items magically exist to the OP or how they all make Juggernauts tanky as fucking shit. Or how a lot of the items OP mentioned ( item 3026 item 3812 item 3123 ) are equally as easily abuseable by them, especially considering Juggernauts naturally scale through the game to be tanky damage dealers.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, this whining about ADC's is absolutely ridiculous. :/ "Boohoo, ADC's are turning tanks into wet paper bags." That's the point of them. "Boohoo, my Assassin can't kill the ADC because support Janna won't let him!" Again, that's the point of her. -_- "Boohoo, I just got nuked by the ADC for all of my health after getting cucked by the support!" That's your fault. Like, you saw the support there; you didn't keep track of their Exhaust CD or wait until they used their CC on something else. Seriously, if League was rock-paper-scissors, ADCs would beat Tanks, Tanks would beat Assassins, and Assassins would beat ADC's.

Baron of BreadSep 10, 20172 votes

You aren't quite right there, practically everyone on your team is also their to prevent you from dying. Yes, if you walk far away from your support and other affiliate teammates then you can get killed by a stiff wind. But you have to make a pretty big mistake for that to happen. Otherwise it can be quite hard for anything to kill you if you still have your friendly neighborhood tank and support to keep them from hurting you. They don't even need to do it for very long since you have the highest damage scaling in the game and will shred anything that gets in your vicinity.

What it takes to make a misstep is a bit extreme these days because of where balance currently sits.

LordGeovanniSep 11, 20171 votes

the game changed to killing the adc because they are easy and thus easy to get value out while still being super safe.

Supreme Senpai69Sep 13, 20171 votes

ADCs aren't super safe, no. Certain supports like Janna make them super safe. That's more of a support issue though. They aren't necessarily OP but they aren't really healthy, because they can't do shit alone but they make their ADC super OP.

Sucks both ways cuz if the ADC sucks you basically can't play the game while being those supports. Soraka/Janna/etc. That's why I like Sona and other supports who help their ADC but can also step up.

LordGeovanniSep 16, 20171 votes

adcs are super safe by nature supports role is to save adcs if anything adcs need to be less safe or else you can do what you guys are proposing and make supports useless again. cant have them do damage because mah safe laneing phase omg why do i have to dodge support skills every 10 seconds why cant they sit and be useless and just let both adcs farm up.

LordGeovanniSep 11, 20171 votes

Not easy just the easiest becauase your impact is direct and not by proxy of your allies having a brain.

Darkdemon653Sep 9, 201710 votes

Judging by the content of this thread, its title should be "If juggernauts magically started with 6 items, how would you feel facing one".

GayFluffyUnicornSep 9, 201711 votes

I still have the opinion that juggernaut as a whole is a failed design especially in a game like league. Most juggernauts in this game come down to: i point and click burst you to death because you got into my range. with zero skill expression. Oh yeah i forgot, hitting minions on darius for infinite speed boost to run you down needs a massive amount of skill. Or pressing W on nasus and just Q you to death. I don't even start talking about cho gath, a champ riot finally managed to break by removing all his weaknesses. Juggernauts are very frustrating in the lane and 1v1s in general while being completely garbage and useless in teamfights unless they got ahead so they just run your team down, nuking everyone while being unkillable. How is that healthy or a good design?

BlåbæretSep 9, 201739 votes

It's good design because juggs actually have counterplay, unlike ADCs.

An Undead bratSep 10, 20179 votes

Because apples are not strawberries, they are orange.

That's literally what you said. Just because one thing isn't identical as the other that isn't healthy doesn't mean it is heathy. Juggs' counterplay of "don't stand near them" is absolutely equal to "don't stand on ADCs' AA range edge" (in melee range they (should) blow up, the state of balance right now is irrelevant, that's a mistake, not a design philosophy).

SkorchSep 10, 20172 votes

No idea why you were downvoted. Heres an upvote.

Mens Hair ClubSep 9, 201719 votes

because juggernauts aren't super-jumpy champions. why should they have a hard time approaching a target and also be easy to outplay? it only works well for Illaoi because she's encouraged to nest in one spot and bait you into it.

Oh yeah i forgot, hitting minions on darius for infinite speed boost to run you down needs a massive amount of skill.

that's skill expression, though. he's doing something smart with his champion mechanics.

Or pressing W on nasus and just Q you to death.

or right-clicking you to death as... any ranged AD carry?

How is that healthy or a good design?

what in particular is unhealthy about being strong 1v1 and not as great in teamfights? their 5v5 is really only weaker than it used to be because of how overloaded tanks are; if they weren't each individually capable of stunlocking you for up to 5 seconds by themselves alone, juggs would be pretty good in teamfights given they weren't explicitly counterpicked with a kiting/hard disengage comp. as it is right now, they suffer the most from tank update because it nerfed their defense items, then left them front-lining vs new tanks as champs who aren't designed to be able to juke or negate CC with a few exceptions.

PB4UAMESep 10, 20174 votes

TBF its the overabundance of spamable CC brought upon by the ADC update and then the MYMU shoving CDR down everyone's throats coupled with keystones, and increasing the CDR cap with masteries, and also the fact that its a chain CC burst meta, where even tanks are gibbed in under 5 seconds if caught out by CC.

Juggernauts actually demolish tanks, particularly if they can isolate them, or lane against them. The meta carries and backline matter much more when considering juggernaut viability than the state of tanks. Just about any frontline they send at you, juggernauts are designed to chew threw. If they have to get close, and especially if they're going to stay there and fight you, they're in your domain; however, if they have a Syndra who can stun you before you can close, and then proceed to full combo you while their allies pitch in, or if they have a Varus, Ashe, or Jhin who roots/stuns you then blows you up whilst their team chains more CC, you won't even have a chance to dent their front line.

AP Keanu ReavesSep 10, 20179 votes

A juggernaut's weakness? Having low mobility and being kited?

item 3071 If only item 3742 there were item 3111 items for item 3800 that item 3116 item 3152 item 3022 Oh well, guess riot should really make juggernaut items that cover weaknesses.

Mens Hair ClubSep 10, 20174 votes

cleaver only helps after you are already on someone mallet isn't a juggernaut item dmp is for roaming, you lose stacks when you get CC'd and have to build up again glory just makes you run into the tanks sooner than usual unless an ADC is caught out

? Protobelt being an anti kite item lol

Elkington VISep 10, 20174 votes

Frozen Mallet sucks on most juggernauts, especially the auto-attack reliant ones. I don't even buy it on Trundle anymore. I rarely ever see Shyvana build it either.

DragonSheaSep 9, 20177 votes

Point 5 is dumb unless it's Urgot.

But yeah, that would be OP.

Anyways, we got Chogath with item 3742 / item 3800 and item 3193

MiraweaveSep 10, 20177 votes

ADCs really shouldn't have access to decent defensive items without sacrificing damage. item 3812 item 3046 item 3026 were all mistakes that should just actually be removed from the game, and item 3072 needs to be reworked.

ZacsRealmSep 9, 20176 votes

Preach it. I would imagine it's less bad for my main Urgot than it is for ya boi Darius or whatever have you, but I have a mini aneurysm whenever I see some ADC with a GA and a PD/DD/BT/anylifestealitem because I just know there's no point to try and massacre them.

At a point like this, it's better for us juggs to pound on tanks with true/%HP damage and that's kinda sad imho :\

FrightningSep 9, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Preach it. I would imagine it's less bad for my main than it is for ya boi Darius or whatever have you, but I have a mini aneurysm whenever I see some ADC with a GA and a PD/DD/BT/anylifestealitem because I just know there's no point to try and massacre them.

At a point like this, it's better for us juggs to pound on tanks with true/%HP damage and that's kinda sad imho :\

Yea, half the reason marksman are such bullshit right now is that divers and juggernauts don't even meaningfully threaten them anymore because juggs and divers got no compensation while ADCs got much better and synergistic items in season 6. Ever since playing divers/juggs has felt awful because the enemy basically doesn't even need to peel you, just shield the ADC and let them stand there and duel you. I still remember in prior seasons when in teamfights you actually had to work to protect your ADC if you wanted them to survive and for you to win the fight. Now? Just plop a shield on them and watch the deeps happen... The only thing that stops marksmen this strong are CC trains...which is why tanks are meta AF right now...you either play tanks as your not squishy people or you lose teamfights to the enemy ADC....that simple. Teamfighting is literally a game of catch the marksman now. I miss the days when other roles actually were important enough to warrant eating the CC train (especially divers being that important, it made teamfights much more interesting and skillful).

The DrBonjigolloSep 10, 20176 votes

Idk about anyone else but I find the weakness of Juggernauts to be hilarious.

Illaoi e/ult's? Just walk away. Urgot ult you before fighting? (which is dumb but I'm sure it happens) Just walk away. Darius got some auto's and Q on you but still hasn't used his pull? Give up on life, you're fuck'in doomed. Skarner ...who am I kidding he still isn't viable(but that ult can still be a bitch). Mordekaiser Just walk away...Unless "Malicious Metal" is above his head, then you're doomed.

For most cases with Juggernauts you can just walk away and call it a day.

An Undead bratSep 10, 20171 votes

Except you are dead before you click with your mouse to walk away.

Mens Hair ClubSep 10, 20174 votes

Maybe you should walk away before they get on you? They can't exactly close the gap without anyone being able to stop them

An Undead bratSep 10, 20172 votes

Right, sorry, I did not notice the point of this comment wasn't about them being already on you- oh wait.

I NEED HEALlNGSep 10, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Would you feel the way I do as when an ADC:

#1 gets to cockblock a reset if he gets caught? #2 gets so that he doesn't have to worry about having a lower base MS than me so he doesn't even get caught in the first place? #3 gets so that their damage over time doesn't get fucked by my heavy sustain with decimate? #4 gets and/or and/or so that they're not as squishy as they're supposed to be and I can't reliably gut them when I get in their range? #5 gets so they don't have to deal with the idea of being near me?

Damn. Imagine if I had items that covered weaknesses like that while STILL amplifying my strength. Imagine running around with something like "the deadmans cleaver", a neat contraption of fused together.

i feel like no one thinks rationally about this. You fix their weakness, they become op. It's so stupid and i don't understand why people don't recognize. like people call for riot to fix X champs lane phase. Ok, now that champ has no weakness. congrats for breaking them.

dominusxSep 10, 20176 votes

aka adcs.

Karn BishopSep 10, 20177 votes

you realize you just described why he is mad at adc's in the first place and thus proved his point right?

ADC have lost all of their inherent weaknesses though itemization which is why they ARE broken.

Somebody Love MeSep 10, 20174 votes

Doesn't item 3800 cover the one weakness most juggernauts have?

Dani El PezgloboSep 10, 20174 votes

Only when u wanna fight , bad stats, high cd , i mean the object is cool , but lmao GA , death dancer or statik/ runaan are 10 times better covering weakness

Mens Hair ClubSep 10, 20175 votes

not really. only if a squishy is out of position

otherwise you usually end up slamming into the tank, which you already do as a juggernaut

Champion SkinSep 10, 20173 votes

The problem in lane is that it has weak stats

the problem in teamfights is that MS boosts doesn't do much if you get CC/slowed (Which is also why ghost isn't picked all that often even if it allows for covering more ground when compared with flash)

XDDDSep 10, 20173 votes

ADC class isn't oppressive to play against because of their itemization. The issue is Janna Lulu Soraka

KaeblenSep 10, 20174 votes

I used to main Janna.

It's not even fun for me to play her now.

She wins. Sure... but what's fun about pressing E to shield people ALL THE TIME? Every single ability in her kit is a form of useful peel, but people start whining at me any time I use something that isn't E.

Meep ManSep 10, 20172 votes

Juggernauts do have items to cover one of their weaknesses or at least the one you mentioned: item 3800 item 3742 item 3071 item 3022 item 3116 item 3152

However, the better one would be: "What if there was an item that increased their range and/or removed crowd control constantly?" That would be the better thing to say.

DeerGreenwoodSep 10, 20173 votes

Except for the fact that Rylai's and Protobelt aren't normal on Juggernauts and should never be built on them in most situations. The items that help ADCs cover their weaknesses are meta on them. They build in almost every game.

DragonSheaSep 11, 20172 votes

ADC's have items that cover their weakness alongside having supports protecting them in addition to breaking through any advantage other champs have. While Jugs don't have anything that can mitigate their weaknesses well.

Juggs need to feel like they are hard to stop and hard to kill because right now they can easily get CC'd and killed in less than a second if they are nether fed or behind. At least their death should take time was to make people regret wasting their time killing them. in fact they should be the only champs that have baseline tenacity.