I still don't get why CDR should be "exclusive".

ModAcademy Kayn·Aug 21, 2017·3 votes·500 views

Or a Rarer stat. When you have lots of Classes in game where their main contribution comes from abilities, CDR shouldn't be rare. No other stat in the game follows that same categorization of "Rare". CDR is considered a multiplicative stat like Attack Speed, because it's multiplying your damage by decreasing the CD time, same as AS lowers the downtime in between Autos. Instead of just adding more to the number, you're adding more instances of the number.

So why does something like that need to be exclusive, or out of the way to build? Attack Speed is nowhere near as exclusive as CDR, nor does an ADC have to go out of their way to buy it. Why does every champion whose main contribution is abilities have to go out of their way to get their own multiplier? It makes no sense.

20 Comments

The Bearded BardAug 21, 20171 votes

It isn't rare. Every class can reach 40%

ModAcademy KaynAug 21, 20171 votes

Lotsa people think that it should be Rare though.

Big LincolnAug 21, 20171 votes

it doesn't need to be on every single other item I want to build either

Mecha MaIphiteAug 21, 20171 votes

CDR isn't just multiplying damage though. It's multiplying mobility, CC, etc.

Autos, on the other hand, are just damage. They don't really do anything else, except in specific cases where a passive/ability gives them bonus effects.

ModAcademy KaynAug 21, 20171 votes

But it's allowing additional usage of them regardless, and per class, it might as well be Damage. Mages it's usually damage, with their CC. Tanks, it's their self-buffs and CC. Assassin's it's their mobility and damage, and Fighters are normally a mix of Defense, Damage, and mobility, varying per fighter.

If you're expected to only have one use of an ability per fight, that ability needs to be downright useful and effective by it's single cast alone. That's one of the problem's with Yas's Windwall, since he's not expected to build CDR at all, and most builds in which he does have been nerfed for a reason.

If a champion is expected to use CDR however, the ability is balanced around being used a lot more frequently, and increasingly so throughout the game. That means you can have powerful abilities early game that are effective, that don't need to scale massively through levels to be useful later in the game, due to CDR.

It creates a more natural power curve.

AhristocatsAug 21, 20171 votes

because balance

good luck balancing the game when 140 champs can get 40% cdr good luck balancing ori ult cd that has almost no cd cc creep caused by cdr mobility creep caused by cdr or mages dealing so much dps due to low cd that riot release adaptive helm

good luck Sir

you want to have fun and spam spells? Play urf

ModAcademy KaynAug 21, 20172 votes

I disagree, it's easier to balance things when you have CDR as a scaling point.

Early game, most champions are sufficiently gated through their CDs, and that's good. It allows for engagement and punishment in missing key shots. However, if you use CDR as a gate when it comes to later in the game, those abilities require higher base damage in their level scaling, due to being gated due to CDs. Since you're not using as many abilities, that usefulness needs to be compressed into those abilities you do use.

Use CDR as a scaling method, and you now balance around the idea that an ability may get more than a single use per fight. Ultimates excluding, you don't need to have intensely powerful abilities gated by CDs, as instead you have the power spread out through multiple uses of that ability. It's also much more fair for the opponent involved, where you're not fucked by a single ability hit, but by multiple, allowing interaction.

I also call BS on Mages dealing DPS. They released Adaptive to give Tanks breathing room against DoTs, and people like Azir and Cass. Mages, as a whole, are not dealing DPS, else people would be complaining about them, along side ADCs.

Best princess EUAug 21, 20172 votes

as an ori main, ori had window of power in s1/s2 where she only built ap and got 600 ap+mana items

they introduced massive cdr and reduced her mana cost

now her Q has 1.5 sec cd with max cdr, W or shield cd is meaningless, balancing ori and playing against her as an other mage is not easier in any way

most mages do not fall off in late game anymore due to cdr, while before midgame was the last moment they were useful

ModAcademy KaynAug 21, 20171 votes

Why should they fall off late-game? Who else is going to deal with the ADC and the support should late game hit?

Best princess EUAug 21, 20171 votes

a mid game/early game class has to fall off in late game by definition

when morgana was played mid, everyone knew that if they turtled to late game they won

mages are a class that brings utility and burst, by definition they should be useless in late game where DPS is everything unless they're karthus or azir and deal DPS

but now, with low cd spells burst mages like syndra became DPS champions (ie: syndra last nerf, riot reduced her Q ap ratio because she has too much burst and shouldn't deal dps, that's an example of cdr ruining the game)

conclusion: you were wrong about mages not dealing DPS, and you were wrong about cdr being healthy to the game

ModAcademy KaynAug 21, 20172 votes

Or it's a re-balancing of different values they want instead. You're right about not wanting DPS mages, however, that doesn't mean a thing about CDR being unhealthy. AP ratios are normally a nerf to mid-late game, because you have AP and etc.

If you're going to increase mage's viability into late game, CDR is a good use for that. However, that should mean other things should suffer. In term's of Syndra, she lost some damage from her Q, her lowest CD ability, taking power from mid-late, though CDR makes up for late game.

Maybe, Riot would like Mages to be better late game, and so they added in more CDR for them. The problem however, if that's what they're aiming for, is just shoving CDR on without taking away power to compensate.

And that's one mage who may have been doing DPS. Other than ones meant to, any other examples to give about Mage DPS?

Best princess EUAug 21, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EELUBxnc,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-21T19:27:36.318+0000)

Or it's a re-balancing of different values they want instead. You're right about not wanting DPS mages, however, that doesn't mean a thing about CDR being unhealthy. AP ratios are normally a nerf to mid-late game, because you have AP and etc.

so, you would gut their burst, just to balance the damage they can do over time

sounds fun xd

a mage viability in late game should not be buffed period, unless designed to DPS instead of burst (karthus)

back when morgana was tier 1 midlane, her late game was garbage, she had too long cd, and her damage fell off in late game naturally due to no %hp damage or anything like that

how was she usefull in late? black shield and snare on an important target in other words: utility

she didn't need DPS to break the entire game with how strong her midgame was

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EELUBxnc,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-21T19:27:36.318+0000)

And that's one mage who may have been doing DPS. Other than ones meant to, any other examples to give about Mage DPS?

orianna was nerfed just because of cdr, she was totally balanced in s2/s3, she got like 1 nerf each 13 months before cdr got massive her kit had counterplay: dodge the ball, now if you dodge it the ball will move 1 sec later the shielding power of her kit wasn't overbearing because of cdr and now, if she misses ult she can wait 40 sec

Syndra: already listed her

Lissandra watch her patch history

cdr broke a lot of champions, mostly mages due to becoming good in late game and it broke other champions, when trinity force got cdr irelia became broken for 8 months or more, same for hecarim

riven shield became busted for years after cdr

and for no reasons we do not need in any way more cdr, or cdr being a common state

it just imbalances the game for no reasons, i didn't talk about chain-cc or mobility

ModAcademy KaynAug 21, 20171 votes

I wouldn't call losing 10% on her Q, and then gaining 10% on her E "Gutting", they just moved the power into a longer CD ability, one that isn't as spammed as Q. Using that context, we can see that they want Syndra's Q to be low CD, but think it shouldn't do as much damage, since her Q is set up for all three of her abilities.

I also don't see what's changed with most Mages, as most already got Morelleo or Athenes (Back when it was Mage worthy) for 20%. Other than that, you're apt to get a Zhonya or Banshee's for some defense, but it's rare that you'll ever need both, and even if you do, you're losing AP for building those items as opposed to other AP items.

So I see two examples, when talking about mages alone.

They get behind, and need to build defensive, so they get Banshee/Zhoynas, and for the AP lost, they get CDR instead.
They're ahead, and they don't need defensive items as much, so they get more AP, and are less likely to get Zhoynas and Banshee's unless the situation calls for.

And finally, though personally I don't see it that much a difference, but at 40% CDR, max level, she has a 48 second downtime. At 20%, it's a 64 second downtime. Early game, when laning is still a thing, I could see the problem, but this is late game, where when you lose a teamfight, and get pushed in, there is plenty of time inbetween that death timer and recovering for the next fight, where the 64 CD would be up regardless.

I see it a lot like those Lux buffs. It looks like a huge thing on paper, but in reality and context of the match, it just doesn't mean much.

ProfDrDeathAug 21, 20171 votes

As someone who has played back then, you're donning rose-tinted glasses if you think Ori did not get 25-40% CdR back in S2.

Back then, mages had Unholy Grail for 15% CdR (and unlimited mana), 10% CdR in masteries, and blue buff for another 20%.

AhristocatsAug 21, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EELUBxnc,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-08-21T19:10:05.826+0000)

I disagree, it's easier to balance things when you have CDR as a scaling point.

hahahahahaha

yeah, let CC scales and see what happens let mobility scales and see what happens let shielding scales and see if this meta won't be cancerous af with low cd shielding

it's for sure going to be easier to balance spells around cdr, and then force everyone to buy CDR to be relevant ???

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EELUBxnc,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-08-21T19:10:05.826+0000)

I also call BS on Mages dealing DPS.

ignorance

ModAcademy KaynAug 21, 20172 votes

Calls ignorance, but doesn't give any examples to counterclaim

Always nice having a discussion with you.

OtherworldzAug 21, 20171 votes

CDR is rare as an adc?

item 3508 item 3158 item 3812 item 3071 item 3057

Yes you might have to give up some other stats for CDR but so do mages. Do you think I always want to a build a Zhonya's for armor or a Banshees veil for MR when I'm really far ahead and could easily just buy a Rabadon's or Liandry's or void staff or Rylai's?

ModAcademy KaynAug 21, 20172 votes

My post is much more talking to regards of people saying that CC is too abundant, and needs to be a "rarer" stat. Save for ER and DD (Although most ADCs aren't doing ability damage) though, you're giving up a lot of better stats for the Boots

deadlychuckAug 21, 20171 votes

Ironically stats like lifesteal and crit were "rare", until riot put CDR everywhere, then increased the access to lifesteal and crit.

That said, it's a question of frequency vs throughput. If you're not sacrificing throughput, to increase the frequency then you're increasing the total contribution of the mechanic in every way, be it mobility, CC, or damage.

Meaning that if you have an ability which both has CC and Damage, then you should be sacrificing the damage throughput of it, for the CC frequency. By over saturating the game with CDR, you're not having to make this decision, meaning that you're just going to have a situation where there is objectively always 1 best build for any particular champion. Things like circumstance and build variety become muted when you're throwing out items that provide every aspect necessary for increasing the power of an ability.

SlythionAug 22, 20171 votes

Because not all champions utilize their abilities as much as others, or for the same reasons.

Att speed is universally built for the same effect exclusively by those who benefit it, as well as AD and almost every other stat.

CDR is different.

On champions like Riven it's a core stat because everything about her benefits from cdr. Damage, mobility, defense, everything. Champions like Malphite Amumu Alistar (tanks) etc only benefit from cdr in the form of crowd control while Zed and most assassins only benefit from a damaging aspect. CDR isn't an intentionally built stat to compliment a certain kit anymore (which is what separates it from att spd and every other stat).

Because of it's different uses it has varying levels of importance. Not everyone needs this stat like an ADC needs attack speed or an Assassin needs damage.

Now that I've explained the difference between cdr to most "common" stats, you might wonder why this matters.

CDR was not designed to be a universal stat. It was not originally designed to be maxed out after 3 items by everyone in the game. It was designed to be a late-game stat (as in, it progresses with the game) that could be rushed by those that truly benefited from it. Champions such as Riven were designed around cdr, most would run runes and builds that would give 40-45% cdr in 2-3 items at the cost of damage, because they benefited more from the cdr. Now they don't have to because items already give that much.

Having varying cdr between champions was also a good thing in the game because it added a skill aspect. Trading in lanes was more than just a positioning skill but also was reliant on timing.

As of now CDR isn't intentionally built. It's not a meaningful stat like attack speed or damage now that literally everyone has the same easy access at no cost to anything else. It provides no advantage because everyone has it. We could remove cdr and reduce every cd in the game by 5-10 seconds and the game wouldn't be any different.

It's lost it's identity and meaning to the game and is only built because it's there.