i can name 5 supports and 20 more non supports that deal more dmg than this guy and also goes by the quote "death is the best CC". what does pyke offer other than handicapping yourself with two AD botlaners? thematic is cool, but pointless design. he is not at all unique. basically AD support shaco with a hook.
Hethalean2 votesHow is he at all like Shaco?
Rouxful1 votesYou must see into the future with all the insight on Pyke you possess after 1 day gameplay wise. If you are speaking thematically and visual design then that is you opinion that we can discuss
lolipopevelynn1 votes[{quoted}](name=Piero Isbad,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EBfE4Xbi,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-06-01T17:25:51.515+0000)
You must see into the future with all the insight on Pyke you possess after 1 day gameplay wise. If you are speaking thematically and visual design then that is you opinion that we can discuss
you dont need to see into the future. this isnt about his balance of being OP or UP or him being strong or weak. this is about his core design and purpose bot lane. he kills people bot lane, that is his core design. how is he any different from brand, velkoz, zyra, AP sona, AP zillean, etc etc?
Rouxful1 votesyou dont need to see into the future. this isnt about his balance of being OP or UP or him being strong or weak. this is about his core design and purpose bot lane. he kills people bot lane, that is his core design. how is he any different from brand, velkoz, zyra, AP sona, AP zillean, etc etc?
Alright, so then what makes brand and velkoz different from each other?
lolipopevelynn1 votes[{quoted}](name=Piero Isbad,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EBfE4Xbi,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-06-01T17:46:23.206+0000)
Alright, so then what makes brand and velkoz different from each other?
Nothing. they both serve the same purpose. thats why im saying pyke is not unique and is perhaps weaker than those two.
Rouxful1 votesNothing. they both serve the same purpose. thats why im saying pyke is not unique and is perhaps weaker than those two.
They are not the same though. My comment was to highlight they are not the same which means Pyke is not the same. There are so many champions in this game. I believe in the imagination and ingenuity of the RIOT design team to come up with new things all the time but you will always be able to compare them. I do not condone creating very similar champions that only differ slightly but I do not all the champions you named are as similar only in that they do dmg. But at the same time they do it in many unique ways. If you mean they serve the purpose of being dmg dealers who support, almost any champion can do that if they have high dmg output. But I would say that Pyke is way more similar to a playmaker rather than a dmg dealer. He is not a poke champ at all.
lolipopevelynn1 votes[{quoted}](name=Piero Isbad,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EBfE4Xbi,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-01T20:08:52.592+0000)
They are not the same though. My comment was to highlight they are not the same which means Pyke is not the same. There are so many champions in this game. I believe in the imagination and ingenuity of the RIOT design team to come up with new things all the time but you will always be able to compare them. I do not condone creating very similar champions that only differ slightly but I do not all the champions you named are as similar only in that they do dmg. But at the same time they do it in many unique ways. If you mean they serve the purpose of being dmg dealers who support, almost any champion can do that if they have high dmg output. But I would say that Pyke is way more similar to a playmaker rather than a dmg dealer. He is not a poke champ at all.
Never said they were the same. i said they serve the same purpose, which is to shit on the enemy carry and also be able to carry on their own when they leave lane phase. Zoe support is also a thing btw.
Hethalean2 votesThat's such an ambiguous and nebulous line of reasoning. For one, he's AD. He does things differently. Even amongst those champions that you listed, they do not perform the same or provide the same. He's so radically different than people you've listed, and it's not a compelling argument of "He kills people. How is he any different than any assassin, bruiser, or mage!?"
woodvsmurph1 votesYou don't have to play something to know about it and make conclusions. Logic, past experiences, inference, etc.... all these can be used to help make accurate statements or predictions about something. Like I don't need to smoke a cigarette to know they're addictive. I don't need to drive 140 mph to realize that controlling a normal vehicle at that speed would be more difficult than driving at 70 mph.
By the same token, you don't have to have played pyke or played him 20,000 times to know stuff about him. You can read his kit, know it's base and scaling stats, observe 3rd person gameplay, etc. and draw accurate conclusions too if you are knowledgeable about such things.
I haven't personally done enough research to confirm what I believe to be true about him, but I have my theories. Others have more info and/or experience on him and could more confidently make accurate claims about him - regardless of how little time they've had to play him live. Also, there's this thing called pbe... where you try stuff out before it goes live.
Example of this: When galio got massive ap ratio buffs (before eventually getting nearly-gutted), everyone from bronze to challenger players were writing on the boards or saying in their games how massively stupid of a mistake it was for Riot to do that big of buffs/changes and that it would make him broken. And they went through with it anyways and sure enough... the people were proved correct. Galio e+q 1-shotting full hp enemies while he was still able to be tanky. So there we see evidence of people from various elo's all merely looking at base and ratio's for a champ and going... that is going to be broken. And it was true. Point being... there's more options than playing tons of games on a champ to make an informed and accurate statement or prediction about a champ.
Rouxful1 votesI don't need to smoke a cigarette to know they're addictive. I don't need to drive 140 mph to realize that controlling a normal vehicle at that speed would be more difficult than driving at 70 mph.
These examples are things that are proven due to research from other people and based on information that has concrete results. It is true that PBE can be used to realize what is what and can be used for that sort of information but it is not the real atmosphere of the game. Pyke is not a champion that a mass number of people have experienced or know how to play with him yet. All of yalls theories may be correct however if you read the rest of the discussion we were having I was disagreeing with what the poster was saying about many other aspects.
woodvsmurph1 votesWhat he says is largely true though. You can't easily use your passive to heal up poke because you need bush control and poke in bot lane is pretty bursty early on.
His abilities are basically a de-proved (opposite of improved) version of thresh hook and a bunch of stuff that requires a full combo to properly make use of. Which also requires him to full-on commit to a fight. This leaves him in much the same boat as leona... either you kill your opponent, or you die; no takebacks like rakan. And he doesn't have the durability of a leona or taric... which makes this playstyle so much more horrible. Because either you have to overtune pyke to make it semi-reliable, or he's going to be weak... made even worse if the adc doesn't play crap perfectly on their end.
So a losing pyke is basically a melee janna (super squish) with only a weaker version of thresh q to offer for his adc. No durability, no other cc, no sustain... nothing. He seems like a cool champ, but sup really isn't the best role when you look at what little he offers if his bot lane is losing or his team is losing.
It's kinda like taking Darius support. Sure you can do it, and if you are winning it feels unstoppable, but if you lose early, how do you come back? What do you actually offer to your team/adc that isn't exceeded by basically every other REAL support? Answer is... nothing. And that's my problem with the champ.
Insanely difficult to balance, requires even or ahead in lane and becomes one of the most utterly useless champs if not. Offers little for his adc regardless - aside from dmg and a slow. It's like how assassins used to play out midlane - before they decided having them be so feast or famine with little to offer their team if losing (or even late game) was a bad thing and reworked them. So they went back against their decision about assassins and made a new one with all the problems of the old assassins... in the support role. Wow, great planning.
DW Diana1 votesi can name 5 supports and 20 more non supports that deal more dmg than this guy and also goes by the quote "death is the best CC". what does pyke offer other than handicapping yourself with two AD botlaners? thematic is cool, but pointless design. he is not at all unique. basically AD support shaco with a hook.
His damage early is low to account for his damage later on (when he is designed to be able to be a carry of sorts). He is a support so isn't designed solely with damage in mind, but also utility.
I played him a lot on PBE. I know a lot of people say this but I had 9 friends online most of the time to play 5v5 customer repeatedly, and as they want me to be able to support for clash incase our support left they've had me practicing supports anyway xD
So this is my observation on Pyke:
Level 1 take Q (obviously) and use it to harass. Use bushes to regain hp from poke and you'll be fine. If your passive doesn't start working it's warded! Ping it out and move to another bush! Level 2 take E (again pretty obvious) now you can combo your two abilities with an AA to proc electrocute, this HURTS (about 30% hp from this combo which is plenty regardless of what you might think), and sets up your ADC to do some nice damage. Obvious target is the enemy adc, though any squishy will do :P. Getting first blood this way is easy with the right adc waiting to combo with you! Level 3 take W (no need to say it xD) and you can now proc your passive whenever you like, re position, and roam with little to fear.
Pyke excels at misinformation. Use your W enough in lane and your opponents won't know whether your are roaming, in a bush somewhere, or have backed. After a single successful roam to midlane/jungle (normally when your adc has backed) will have them pinging anytime you are out of their vision and driving their midlaner/jungler wild! As pyke you should ALWAYS be looking to roam. Most of the time your adc won't get punished because they'll be expecting a hook out of a bush anyway, and if they get over confident, and you happen to be roaming at the time, your adc will already be aware of your absence so should be ever ready to back off. Note you also must ALWAYS be ready to rush back to your laner if they need you. Mobi boots are key for this!
Final point: Pyke is a SUPPORT! He isn't designed as a solo lane carry. He isn't a burst mage or tank that's been re-purposed as a support, he's a roaming support like Bard. To expect him to do the same damage as a zero utility assassin/mage at level 3 is stupid. He has a hook, he has a line stun, he has a slow. He has camouflage to help him proc his passive, roam and re position. He does great damage later, but early that's not his job. His job then is to babysit the adc and try and set them up for some damage. This is why he does best with adcs that can combo off his CC. The Cait who puts a trap under the hook/stunned enemy adc. The draven that can do serious work when he gets close enough and his opponent is cc'ed. The Kai'sa who loves to Q the target you pulled away from minions. These are the types of champions you want to pair up with for success, but never think as pyke YOU are the ADC, you're not, you're the support. Set them up for success, and bide your time for that late game scaling.
Hope this helps.
lolipopevelynn1 votes[{quoted}](name=Lord Loki1987,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EBfE4Xbi,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-06-01T18:16:47.661+0000)
His damage early is low to account for his damage later on (when he is designed to be able to be a carry of sorts). He is a support so isn't designed solely with damage in mind, but also utility.
I played him a lot on PBE. I know a lot of people say this but I had 9 friends online most of the time to play 5v5 customer repeatedly, and as they want me to be able to support for clash incase our support left they've had me practicing supports anyway xD
So this is my observation on Pyke:
Level 1 take Q (obviously) and use it to harass. Use bushes to regain hp from poke and you'll be fine. If your passive doesn't start working it's warded! Ping it out and move to another bush! Level 2 take E (again pretty obvious) now you can combo your two abilities with an AA to proc electrocute, this HURTS (about 30% hp from this combo which is plenty regardless of what you might think), and sets up your ADC to do some nice damage. Obvious target is the enemy adc, though any squishy will do :P. Getting first blood this way is easy with the right adc waiting to combo with you! Level 3 take W (no need to say it xD) and you can now proc your passive whenever you like, re position, and roam with little to fear.
Pyke excels at misinformation. Use your W enough in lane and your opponents won't know whether your are roaming, in a bush somewhere, or have backed. After a single successful roam to midlane/jungle (normally when your adc has backed) will have them pinging anytime you are out of their vision and driving their midlaner/jungler wild! As pyke you should ALWAYS be looking to roam. Most of the time your adc won't get punished because they'll be expecting a hook out of a bush anyway, and if they get over confident, and you happen to be roaming at the time, your adc will already be aware of your absence so should be ever ready to back off. Note you also must ALWAYS be ready to rush back to your laner if they need you. Mobi boots are key for this!
Final point: Pyke is a SUPPORT! He isn't designed as a solo lane carry. He isn't a burst mage or tank that's been re-purposed as a support, he's a roaming support like Bard. To expect him to do the same damage as a zero utility assassin/mage at level 3 is stupid. He has a hook, he has a line stun, he has a slow. He has camouflage to help him proc his passive, roam and re position. He does great damage later, but early that's not his job. His job then is to babysit the adc and try and set them up for some damage. This is why he does best with adcs that can combo off his CC. The Cait who puts a trap under the hook/stunned enemy adc. The draven that can do serious work when he gets close enough and his opponent is cc'ed. The Kai'sa who loves to Q the target you pulled away from minions. These are the types of champions you want to pair up with for success, but never think as pyke YOU are the ADC, you're not, you're the support. Set them up for success, and bide your time for that late game scaling.
Hope this helps.
you are basically proving my point. The diffrence between Pyke and brand? brand can solo carry after he gets kills, pyke cant. pyke shouldn't have been released as an assassin under the support tag. because he has a support tag on him he is INTENTONALLY made weaker than mage supports like zyra brand or velkoz who can 100-0 their lane opponent aswell as come out of lane solo carrying the game because of their mage kits. pyke can not do this.
in a world where burst mage supports didnt exist and ONLY enchanter or CC heavy supports existed bot lane, kind of like they did pre annie support days, then yes pyke would be unique. but right now he isnt unique and he will always be worse than mage supports because of the fact that he is an actual support. and its not like they can buff him to actual assassin tier either because of how broken his reset ult would be.
Rouxful1 votesyou are basically proving my point. The diffrence between Pyke and brand? brand can solo carry after he gets kills, pyke cant. pyke shouldn't have been released as an assassin under the support tag. because he has a support tag on him he is INTENTONALLY made weaker than mage supports like zyra brand or velkoz who can 100-0 their lane opponent aswell as come out of lane solo carrying the game because of their mage kits. pyke can not do this.
Brand and Velkoz were not meant to be supports original though. Would you rather him have the same kit with a different ult?
lolipopevelynn1 votes[{quoted}](name=Piero Isbad,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EBfE4Xbi,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2018-06-01T20:14:54.119+0000)
Brand and Velkoz were not meant to be supports original though. Would you rather him have the same kit with a different ult?
they sure wasnt, but they still go support and riot has been supporting that for years.
[{quoted}](name=Piero Isbad,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EBfE4Xbi,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-01T20:17:03.854+0000)
I'm not sure what your argument about Pyke is then
that he shouldn't have been released as an assassin under the support tag. he is destined to do worse than any of the mage supports bot lane. people are taking him jg more than supp right now
Rouxful1 votesthey sure wasnt, but they still go support and riot has been supporting that for years.
that he shouldn't have been released as an assassin under the support tag. he is destined to do worse than any of the mage supports bot lane. people are taking him jg more than supp right now
But doesn't that make him completely different from mage supports.. As an assassin? People took Rakan jg when he came out. They took Kai'sa jg.
Pika Fox1 votesPyke has more utility than either of them, as well as more mobility. Of course brand and velk bring more straight damage.
Hes also far more tanky.