Possible improvements to Sivir's gameplay (Possible Rework Thread)

SaltyToplaneGoat··3 votes·392 views

Ok, first of all: this rework thread is not caused by Sivir being unbalanced or toxic. There are just some things in the execution of here theme in gameplay that bother me as well the fact that I had some ideas I wanted to share. The following ideas are primarely not for making Sivir more "healthy to the game" or "balanced", but increase the awesomeness and the potential her theme has.

So, who is Sivir? "Ehrm... the girl with that round boomerang thing?" While that is somewhat correct it's not the first association a champions name should cause. I said this in another thread before, but as it is right now Sivir does NOT live up to her theme. She's a brutal mercenary, cold and mercyless, the kind of person who would slice your throat for a bag of gold. Her ingame theme right now feels more like "seemingly harmless wonder woman from the desert"...

At the same time here theme and her current role are... not exactly in sync. Robber and mercenary would be more fitting to a fighter or asassin and not to a marksman in my eyes. And then I thought "fuck it", then she'll just be a marksman/assassin/(squishy)fighter! She is quite close ranged after all, so focusing her strongst source of damage in that low range should turn out quite well...

"It's not stealing when they are dead". Sivir murders people and takes their cash. What does she do right now? Murder people. I think we are missing some part here... ^^ More to that later, but I had a neat idea for a gold-passive here...

My main focus is on shifting the focus of Sivir's abilities on her weapon, as well as the possibilities you have as a player when using and controling it. Her weapon indicates a unusual but highly skilled style of fighting, and that's how her gameplay is supposed to be. Also one should take something in consideration: Sivir is a brutal robber and mercenary - adding something that looks and feels like a dirty and overly brutal move would sound like the right thing to me... but more of that later ^^

And before I get to my ideas, here some other thoughts I have on her weapon:

1.) How can she even use basic attacks of she has used her Q? SHE JUST THREW HER WEAPON. Until it comes back it's absolutely illogical... 2.) Her spellshield seems to be thematically tied to her weapon -> implies that weapon has magical properties 3.) Can we make it fly more like an actual boomerang? Slighty curved and not just forwards-backwards?

Passive: "It's not stealing when they're dead..."

_After killing an enemy Sivir can activate a channel close to a fallen enemy champion (the dead model lying around). If the channel is complete and not interrupted by champion damage, she gets X gold. _ _Also Sivir gets bonus movement speed when using basic attacks on champions, based on the enemy's missing health (the more health missing -> faster) _

The Q: Boomerang Toss:

_Sivir throws her weapon that will return to her short after. Enemies hit by the passing blade take damage every time they have contact with it. The weapon flies curved (One Diana Q until target, and back in a symmetrical fashion). Damage and speed are increased compared to right now, BUT: as the weapon is in the air, Sivir cannot basic attack or use abilities that would require her weapon. While Sivir is not carrying her weapon she gains bonus movement speed. _

The E: Spellshield:

Activation when Q is not active: as normal, shield blocks next ability, Sivir gains mana. Activation while Q IS active: The blade will return IMMEDEATLY to Sivir, damaging all enemies in addition the the damage Q would normally deal, Sivir gains mana for every unit hit. Once the blade reaches her she gets the shield, but does not gain mana for blocking abilities anymore.

The W: Current version -> scrapped and replaced by close combat move New W: Sivir reaches out her blade while rotating it at high speed, effectively slicing through her enemies at close range. Killing an enemy with it reduces the cooldown of this ability This ability is a skillshot, comparable to Maokai's ground slam or Yasuo's Q. I want to make something clear: for that I want the most murderous and brutal vfx you can find. It's basically shredding your enemies with a giant circular saw...

The ULTIMATE: Ok, here is the only point of the kit where I'm still not sure on what to do. Right now her ultimate is used to a) Help her team by speeding them up; b) initiate/hunt or c) Allow a smooth escape. All in all a function I can approve. So, now we have to find a skill that does that while being actually awesome and not just a "press&forget" skill.

Then I did some thinking: Sivir ingame has already met Azir (after all she resurrected him). Maybe she had used the chance to learn the one or the other trick about manipulating sand? Of course she could NEVER summon an object like Azir, much less a moving soldier. First of all bcause she isn't a mage or an ascended. But on the other hand she has an obviously magically enchanted shurima weapon (capable of a powerful spell like a shield that blocks even something like a veigar ult). So, now we had moving sand, but it's not that precise or simple to use...

How about this then?. (I'm terribly sorry for this link)

R: Desert's Veil:

_Sivir uses her weapon to summon a short lasting sandstorm, that does not deal damage but limits the vision of enemies inside. Allies close to Sivir and Sivir herself get a boost of movement speed when moving through the storm. Enemies CANNOT see the area inside the storm (see it as a creating of fog-of war) _

Now I have two possibilities of cast: offensive, line aoe, comparable to nami ult. Or defensive surround, no aiming, affecting a round AoE around her. I couldn't decide on on, so I just picked both: you can aim the direction, but on self-cast it will use the aoe surround variant.

Why do I think that this would be thematically fitting? Multiple reasons actually. In the offensive use it would really fit to her criminal/robber image, using the storm to get close and murder her foes by slicing them apart close range. In defensive options imagine Sivir and he rallies cornered, and then suddenly vanish in a short storm of sand. Vanishing as if the desert had swallowed them...

Offtopic: does anyone remember the story of Ali Baba and the 40 robbers? Why were the robbers so special? They were not that many, their fighting skills were medicore... but no one could track them down because of how their hideout was hidden. Whoever was chasing them would suddenly stand in front of a wall/a dune (dependes on story version) and wonder where the hell they went. Vanishing as if... you know what I'm getting at ^^

On another note it would be quite an awesome looking escape move ^^

Soo, but before you now get mad about the part on the Q with the "cannot attack while Q is in air" part... No other champs blocks his own ability to basic attack so far: but think of it as if you would think of rumble: using abilities can make him silence himself and he gets a bonus out of it. Same thing applies to Sivir who, in this version, would get more power on the abilities themselves as well as the movementspeed-boost when giving away her ability to auto-attack temporarely.

Also this opens up a lot of strategies and possibilites, as well as obvious timeframes of weakness - that can be ALSO used for baiting. Throw Q -> let enemy come close- > Call weapon back, slice through the enemy's back for bonus damage, get mana + shield -> use W to finish him off. And that's just one possibility ^^ Also possible would be: Surpise enemy team with ult -> use vision limiter and speed to get close to enemy -> shred them with a W -> finish them off with a Q+E while running out.

I think this a a good possibility for Sivir to make her as awesome as her theme has the potential to be.

And keep in mind: this is a pure gameplay discussion, Sivir current state of balance is not relevant here now! Feel free to discuss and if there are questions feel free to ask me! :D

24 Comments

PalPlays2 votes

I don't like the whole "not being able to auto attack" thing, but the rest of the kit seems fine to me!

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Well, her basic attack is throwing her weapon.

How do you throw your weapon if you just threw it? ^^ I think it's the best idea to add her weakness here: because everyone will see "Ah, yes, that's logical, she just threw her weapon, yes, understandable" - instant clarity :D

On another note it adds complexity to her kit as well as obvious strenghts and weaknesses - because to compensate for the downside of short-time-no-basic-attacks the ability itself can be made stronger.

Also, related to this: if you could just use the new W whenever you want, that would be boring. But, imagine the tension... will your weapon come back in time? Did you get the timing right? Did you estimeate the enemy's moves and damage properly? It will make her harder to play... but also way more challenging and fun ^^

The more skill you have to use to survive/score a kill -> the higher the satisfication if you get a kill ^^

But I'm glad you like the rest of my ideas :D

PalPlays1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EAUPXdVc,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-04-16T16:46:27.218+0000)

Well, her basic attack is throwing her weapon.

How do you throw your weapon if you just threw it? ^^ I think it's the best idea to add her weakness here: because everyone will see "Ah, yes, that's logical, she just threw her weapon, yes, understandable" - instant clarity :D

On another note it adds complexity to her kit as well as obvious strenghts and weaknesses - because to compensate for the downside of short-time-no-basic-attacks the ability itself can be made stronger.

Also, related to this: if you could just use the new W whenever you want, that would be boring. But, imagine the tension... will your weapon come back in time? Did you get the timing right? Did you estimeate the enemy's moves and damage properly? It will make her harder to play... but also way more challenging and fun ^^

The more skill you have to use to survive/score a kill -> the higher the satisfication if you get a kill ^^

But I'm glad you like the rest of my ideas :D

It would REALLY hurt her laning phase, as she's have to sacrifice CS to harass. How about this instead?

While her weapon is in the air, Sivir uses daggers to basic attack: dealing 50% attack damage. A good assassin never throws her weapon away without a backup plan, so it only makes sense that she not be helpless.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Oh? I have to say that this idea has also some appeal... Would these daggers be ranged ("thrown") or be an melee attack?

Hmmm I don't think that it would hurt her laning so much. I think it should be easily possible to find a short time-window where you wouldn't miss a minion ^^ Also you could combine harass and lasthitting: shoot the Q through the minion you would lose. Would also work ^^

PalPlays1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EAUPXdVc,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-16T17:10:24.297+0000)

Oh? I have to say that this idea has also some appeal... Would these daggers be ranged ("thrown") or be an melee attack?

Hmmm I don't think that it would hurt her laning so much. I think it should be easily possible to find a short time-window where you wouldn't miss a minion ^^ Also you could combine harass and lasthitting: shoot the Q through the minion you would lose. Would also work ^^

They could be ranged, though you could even argue that she could LOSE some attack range while her blade was away. If she had to trade harass for less range/damage on autos, I think that's a better trade than not being able to auto.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Hmmmm a secondary basic attack move.

Since she's already close ranged I would almost plead for a melee secondary move.

It would be her backup, also it would allow us to add more power to the basic attacks (or at least don't weaken them). So instead from a simple weakness they become a element that can be played with.

PalPlays1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EAUPXdVc,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-17T20:43:38.126+0000)

Hmmmm a secondary basic attack move.

Since she's already close ranged I would almost plead for a melee secondary move.

It would be her backup, also it would allow us to add more power to the basic attacks (or at least don't weaken them). So instead from a simple weakness they become a element that can be played with.

No, she's too squishy to have melee AAs. As soon as she throws her blade the opponent will just go in and kill her. It's no different than her having no AAs while the blade is out. Trust me, she would drop to bottom tier instantly. Sivir's blade is not good enough for such a sacrifice to be merited.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Hmmmm I know that a "no basics/weakened basics" time wondow would make her vunerable, that's why I proposed bonus movement speed as well as an ability to "call" the blade back.

But melee would be going to far considering how squishy she is, you might be right on that.

PalPlays1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EAUPXdVc,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-20T17:50:09.655+0000)

Hmmmm I know that a "no basics/weakened basics" time wondow would make her vunerable, that's why I proposed bonus movement speed as well as an ability to "call" the blade back.

But melee would be going to far considering how squishy she is, you might be right on that.

Another thing to consider is how much damage the blade does. Two or three seconds without the blade could be replaced by two harassing autos, dealing more damage. I think that the half damage ranged auto that I suggested is a decent trade-off. Now, if the blade applied a bleed effect, then maybe it would be worth it.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Well, the damage of the active Q would be increased as compared to now, as well as the range (slightly) and the speed of it. It's supposed to be a strong skill, but with a clearly obvious tradeoff...

PalPlays1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EAUPXdVc,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-20T20:10:19.166+0000)

Well, the damage of the active Q would be increased as compared to now, as well as the range (slightly) and the speed of it. It's supposed to be a strong skill, but with a clearly obvious tradeoff...

I was kind of hoping for some CC...

Maybe a bleed effect?

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Nah, damage over time is a weird thing for balancing... A slow maybe?

PalPlays1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EAUPXdVc,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-21T16:38:20.315+0000)

Nah, damage over time is a weird thing for balancing... A slow maybe?

No, everyone and their cousin has a ranged slow. I kind of want her to have something that sets her apart from Jinx or Graves (both sporting ranged slows). Oooh! I know you said that damage over time is a hard thing to balance but, what about a bleed that deals 3% of an opponent's missing HP over 3 seconds? It's sort of like an execute, and can deal that last TINY smudge of damage needed to secure the kill. The two possible hits of the blade can stack it, dealing up to 6% missing HP.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Hmmmm I thought of the new W as a executing move...

OH, now I know! On the way AWAY from Sivir it deals %current damage, on the way back %missing damage! (As the bonus effect you proposed). Keep in mind that I had the idea of changing how her Q behaves. Instead of forwards->backwards it should go Curve-> curve other side back. Think of two Diana Q's ^^

Sivir, the adc of executes xD It would fit her theme though... ^^

DropFill1 votes

She has 3 MS enhacing abilities , which I think is too much ( Ult, passive, Q )

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Passive is bound to her basic attack range, Q would exclude passive AND basic attacks and... well, her ult is also working similiar to this right now so I see no problem ^^

She's squishy and really close ranged... I think the mobility like this (movementspeed, not dashes) is the best way to compensate for her low range.

9kPluzZ1 votes

Lame, sivir is all ready op... Do you want to break her?

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Actually, no, I would even remove the pattern that would make her op...

Right now the thig is: lategame sivir, triggers W, kills you with massive AS and crits. In the new version she doesn't have an AS steroid, so with the currently most "broken" part gone I think it would be fine ^^

Sailor Mint1 votes

Sivir was reworked in late 2013 and she doesn't need one right now. She's filling a unique niche and it's been working out well.

Plenty of champions suffer from an identity crisis and could use a rework. Sivir is not one of them.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

"Another rework" heh~ You almost made me laugh ^^ Her rework had been a minimal gameplay adjustment to go along with the rushed Shurima event and while it did solve SOME problems, it didn't really do anything actually important.

Sailor Mint1 votes

It was significant enough to take her from being forgotten to being the centerpiece of Stampede comps and one of the few utility ADCs to have seen play in the past two seasons. She doesn't need a third rework.

Her rework came out a full year before the Shurima event. Are you confusing it with some minor balance changes?

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Wait, there was another? Didn't seem to have done anything specific... Well it might be that I mixed it up, after all her changes came along with the shurima event back then I think (or not exactly, but somewhen in that timeframe).

Well, why not another rework? As long as there is the possibility to make things more awesome... ^^ Also she would still remain a utility adc... especially with her ult getting even MORE utility in this version.

If Riot was a small company and they could only focus on one champ at a time I'd say "Yo man , chill, Sivir's fine, we need other champs to rework". But with that you don't need to redesign her, only some new particels and mechanics and you're good. No time consuming art & concept phase - and I'm sure the ChampUp team could handle such a rather "small" rework idea with ease ^^

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

little bump

Somehow I had hoped for more resonance... I can't be the only one who wants sivir to be as awesome as she deserves to be!

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

last bumping attempt

Maybe today are more poeple who are giving consturctive criticism instead of complaining online :)

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