If DD is "disgustingly broken"

Eedat·Jun 5, 2017·76 votes·7,603 views

Then why aren't people building it even often? The only champ thats its actually even a problem on is .

I've seen multiple threads claiming how "disgusting" DD is on Fiora, Riven, Darius, Illaoi, Lucian, ADCs in general, etc.

Then why do none of these champions actually even build DD?

Fiora doesn't even build it at all really

Neither does Darius

Lucian is not building it either

Riven doesn't even build it most of the time

Even Illaoi only builds it occasionally

I'm confused. If DD is 'OMG SO BROKEN" then why aren't people even building it? Where are all the mythical DD Fioras that people constantly complain about at? Sorry, you're going to have to do more than making baseless claims of "DD IS BROKEN OP" to convince me because I don't see it.

140 Comments

Ithil SnekJun 5, 201765 votes

Wait, since when is DD in LoL? http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/13100000/DeeDee-dexters-laboratory-13130887-445-556.jpg

RaiyzaJun 5, 20176 votes

Stupid sister DD...

DessemJun 5, 201729 votes

Look up DD's dance.

Then look at Master Yi's dance.

Ever wonder why Master Yi wears a mask? There's the answer.

Avios1Jun 5, 201711 votes

Help me.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQNkaYvvmCo

AirKingNeoJun 5, 201738 votes

Riven in Diamond+ are building DD first item and being horrifically overpowered.

EedatJun 5, 201713 votes

And your proof? Gonna need more than a clickbait YouTube vid.

nice tableJun 5, 201734 votes

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Riven http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Illaoi http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Fiora

would you look at that people who are actually good at the game build this item a lot more than the average player, 70% of games built on illaoi and 57% on riven ... yeah they never build it especially when the player is good right?

EedatJun 5, 201712 votes

Nobody gives a damn about challenger data. Everyone knows sample sizes in challenger are far too small to get any accurate conclusions from.

nice tableJun 5, 201746 votes

wait let me get this straight, you are implying that the people who dedicate their lives to playing this game as well as possible and making a living off of it don't know what efficient builds are? sure challenger win ratios don't necessarily matter but being like "oh don't look at the best players for what good builds are" is just plain stupid.

EedatJun 5, 201720 votes

No, what I'm saying is that Challenger data is far too small to get accurate data from. Especially Probuilds which uses a small fraction of that small fraction.

Look at the Illaoi data.

Illaoi has only been used TWICE in the past 2 weeks.

Out of the past twenty Illaoi games listed on that site (which stretch OVER an entire month mind you), 70% of them are data from just TWO players

The Yetii RiderJun 5, 201717 votes

{quoted}

No, what I'm saying is that Challenger data is far too small to get accurate data from. Especially Probuilds which uses a small fraction of that small fraction.

Look at the Illaoi data.

Illaoi has only been used TWICE in the past 2 weeks.

Out of the past twenty Illaoi games listed on that site (which stretch OVER an entire month mind you), 70% of them are data from just TWO players

But your argument just plain fails to follow logic.

"If this is powerful, why isn't it popular?"

"It's clearly powerful, the best players build it super often".

"But not the REST of the players."

Yeah, maybe that's why those players aren't in Challenger...

Popularity does not equal power. People don't experiment enough to change builds as a group. They change builds by observing the best players, who do experiment all the time.

EedatJun 5, 201713 votes

Illaoi has only been used TWICE in the past 2 weeks.

Looking at op.gg, Illaoi has FIVE games in challenger over the past MONTH. Most of those games on probuilds have to be played on smurfs then

The Yetii RiderJun 5, 201710 votes

{quoted}

Looking at op.gg, Illaoi has FIVE games in challenger over the past MONTH. Most of those games on probuilds have to be played on smurfs then

That has nothing to do with my point. My point is that your logic is faulty. There is no connection between power and popularity in this game. People figure out a build and stick with it until one of their items gets nerfed.

EedatJun 5, 201710 votes

Alright explain this to me then. If DD Illaoi is so strong then why does she only get picked one per week in challenger? This whole subthread is using data from probuilds. Fun fact: probuilds also collects data from pros on their smurfs. How exactly is data from a Challenger player playing in low Diamond ELO good data? Why aren't any of these players using this on their mains in Challenger? Hmmm maybe because its not that good and these players could maintain an 80% win rate with Urgot on their smurfs?

The Yetii RiderJun 5, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Alright explain this to me then. If DD Illaoi is so strong then why does she only get picked one per week in challenger? This whole subthread is using data from probuilds. Fun fact: probuilds also collects data from pros on their smurfs. How exactly is data from a Challenger player playing in low Diamond ELO good data? Why aren't any of these players using this on their mains in Challenger? Hmmm maybe because its not that good and these players could maintain an 80% win rate with Urgot on their smurfs?

Probably because playing champions with 0 CC is genuinely detrimental to a team and those champions shouldn't exist to begin with.

EedatJun 5, 20179 votes

back to the original point, this translates to DD is "disgustingly OP" how?

All that we've established is DD is pretty good on Riven, pros dont play Illaoi ever in serious games, and pros rarely build it on Fiora who is played a lot.

How does this translate to DD being broken?

The Yetii RiderJun 5, 20175 votes

{quoted}

back to the original point, this translates to DD is "disgustingly OP" how?

All that we've established is DD is pretty good on Riven, pros dont play Illaoi ever in serious games, and pros rarely build it on Fiora who is played a lot.

How does this translate to DD being broken?

I'm not here to debate that. If your argument is that DD is good but not broken, you could likely make and defend that argument. I entered this thread because your OP argument - that something needs to be popular to be numerically powerful, was flawed.

statelesskillerJun 5, 20174 votes

pro builds dont matter. look at the riven one tricks. box box (when he is playing seriously (if ever)) adrian riven viper dekar. THEM. look at them

GooooobJun 5, 20173 votes

That logic is so flawed lmfao. [zombie-brand-mindblown] Don't you dare look at Huni/Ray/Ssumday Riven builds................

statelesskillerJun 5, 20173 votes

huni? ray? ssumbay? are they riven mains/onetricks? no? then i dont care about there opinon on riven. they arent the indicator. sure they can have good IDEAS. but they play a wide variety of champions. they arent dedicated to just one champion like mains and one tricks are.

i am a gangplank main as a example. i dedicate a massive amount of time and effort to learning practicing and being good at gangplank. i will happily say that i know my champion better the huni or ray or ssumday. i know whats good on him more then they do. why? because i spend most of my league time on him and doing things. i will trust adrien riven viper and dekar for opinions on riven then i will any other pro player BECAUSE THEY KNOW THERE CHAMPION

one tricks ARE THE SOURCE MATERIAL. im not saying they are BAD builds. im saying they dont know what is OPTIMAL.

JoseraphJun 5, 20174 votes

I'm willing to bet money that Challenger, and even high Master one-tricks can beat Pros in 1v1s simply because of how much experience they have on their champions

dunder killJun 5, 201711 votes

WUT? People use probuilds as a valid source now? Clicked Riven. Only picked half the time. Clicked Illaoi. 2 games played in the past two weeks LOL. Clicked Fiora 15% pick rate. Kek thats a fantastic source you got there

dunder killJun 5, 201717 votes

Lol at these people using probuilds as an actual source.

Illaoi has been played twice in the past two weeks on that site.

Illaoi has been played 5 times in NA Challenger over the past month with a 0% win rate

https://na.op.gg/statistics/champion/

Illaoi has been used 0 times in EUW and KR challenger in the past month

https://euw.op.gg/statistics/champion/

https://www.op.gg/statistics/champion/

Obviously item 3812 Illaoi is amazing because probuilds says the pros actually play her. Great source you got there of pros on their smurfs kek

AhristocatsJun 5, 201710 votes

From my experience riven builds DD a lot

fiora and darius do not

nice tableJun 5, 20173 votes

tbh its becoming surprisingly common on fiora these days, even see yasuo players building it now.

AhristocatsJun 5, 201710 votes

true damage do not proc the sustain passive

Hinagiku33Jun 5, 20172 votes

Fiora buys DD as a secondary item sometimes in place of Bloodthirster. Both items give 80 AD which gives her lots of extra damage on her Passive scaling, Q, and E strikes. Bloodthirster's overheal can help Fiora from being jumped and bursted while split-pushing but is only in effect when she is at full health. DD's bleed out reduces the initial damage Fiora would take from all sources and gives her a chance to heal it off. Considering Ravenous Hydra is a core item on her she can easily take advantage of that window.

The reason Fiora doesn't take DD more often is because her absolute core items are Hydra and Cleaver which is expensive and by the time she builds those two and completes her boots the game is practically over.

If Fiora snowballs, she builds DD or Bloodthirster. If not, she builds Maw or something defensive.

My HeartshakerJun 5, 20172 votes

BT does what DD does, but better since everything (apart from her W) is on-hit or a basic attack and you do not want to use your W as poke due its ridiculous CD.

doiminat0r3600Jun 5, 20178 votes

All of the champions that are building it, are building it on less than 5% of all games. But mind you, the % they build it, the winrate of that build spikes up to 60%. This could mean it's a situational item to buy only when ahead or it could be an indicator that its broken.

Not saying I disagree with you because I'm glad this item is finally in the spotlight. What doesn't make sense is the winrate that comes with that item. I just checked and the item has a 60%+ win rate top lane at almost all stages of the game.

Commando YiJun 5, 20177 votes

it's broken when paired with other items to turn the 30% bleed into effectively 30% damage reduction

EedatJun 5, 20176 votes

turn the 30% bleed into effectively 30% damage reduction

No it doesn't. DD does NOT reduce damage period. It converts 30% of it into a bleed. It is not reduced at all by any %.

Commando YiJun 5, 201710 votes

{quoted}

No it doesn't. DD does NOT reduce damage period. It converts 30% of it into a bleed. It is not reduced at all by any %.

"effectively" http://www.dictionary.com/browse/effectively?s=t

Critmaster GarenJun 5, 20175 votes

http://champion.gg/champion/Graves/Jungle?league=

DragonSheaJun 5, 20175 votes

It's simple.

To mock Tyler1.

OrangesilkJun 5, 20174 votes

The pages you're basing your information off of use only Plat+ data.

The kind of people who complain about Illaoi and DD are mostly bronzies, that's why.

DuskDaUmbreonJun 5, 20174 votes

As a Bronze III/IV, I can confirm OP's statement in my area. DD is a rare item to see anywhere, and it's never a first or second item. The only times I ever see it are:

As a replacement for on , since she utilizes DD's healing better than BT's (feather recall is most of her damage).
As a second sustain item on , but only after I buy and .
As a shock build on a few bruisers. Most notably I see it on , although I more commonly see .

AirKingNeoJun 5, 20172 votes

You're in low bronze. I don't think that counts for much.

Though I am surprised Xayahs figured out DD > BT on her, because maxes out CDR + feather healing. It is just straight up broken on Riven. XIn Zhao shouldn't build Gunblade, which is where we come back to "wait, this is low bronze".

DuskDaUmbreonJun 5, 20177 votes

I replied to him. He said that "The kind of people who complain about Illaoi and DD are mostly bronzies", and that OP used plat+ data. I gave data relevant to bronze, so that OP had data to cover Bronze, thereby invalidating the person I replied to's point.

And it's really not that broken on Riven. it does damned well, but you don't beat Riven by burst. You beat Riven by CC-locking her.

AirKingNeoJun 5, 20171 votes

But you can't CC lock riven 1v1 because she CC locks you. Then shields when you aren't under CC.

DuskDaUmbreonJun 5, 20172 votes

You can very easily CC-lock Riven. Use Leona or anyone with long-range CC.

JoseraphJun 5, 20172 votes

Poppy Maokai Garen (not technically a lock, but the silence fucks her over) Gnar Gragas Irelia Jax (Though you need to play the matchup extremely carefully, especially on level 6 power spike, even if you're 2 kills on her) Nautilus Renekton Pantheon Warwick Galio Rammus

Velkoz Veigar Lux Leblanc If you place your skillshots right

Agent CorgiJun 5, 20172 votes

How does Draven make Death's Dance a problem, Just curious btw.

RaiyzaJun 5, 20176 votes

Draven's auto damage is so high, with item 3812 he just gets massive healing from the item. Also the 30% damage conversion to bleed is nonexistant to Draven since he just heals it off based on the lifesteal. He basically gets free 30% damage reduction.

I think it's fine. Could use some number tuning, but Draven is so incredibly squishy and easy to displace that it shouldn't be that much of an issue.

Commando YiJun 5, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Draven's auto damage is so high, he just gets massive healing from the item. Also the 30% damage conversion to bleed is nonexistant to Draven since he just heals it off based on the lifesteal. He basically gets free 30% damage reduction.

I think it's fine. Could use some number tuning, but Draven is so incredibly squishy and easy to displace that it shouldn't be that much of an issue.

the 30% damage conversion to bleed is responsible for preventing you from getting 100-0'd from spells you won't normally have time to heal up from - better pack a scimitar along side deaths dance to make the most of it

RaiyzaJun 5, 20172 votes

Also true.

ZT XperimentorJun 5, 20171 votes

Because most people are too lazy, ignorant, or stubborn. Back when dodge was a stat, the counter item was executioner's calling, it's unique passive as ignoring dodge chance; however next to nobody built it, and just cried about how dodge was frustrating. Guess what happened? Riot removed dodge as a stat instead of informing people about the item list, or making a couple more items to counter it.

HalcyonDwellerJun 5, 20177 votes

That whole design is clunky though. Creating a stat that is too powerful and requires an item to shut down, but if the item is bought it is shut down so hard that the stat becomes absolutely useless. That's like, the definition of binary gameplay.

That's why Riot removed it. Not because some babies were crying that it stole their candy.

ZT XperimentorJun 6, 20171 votes

If memory serves, the most dodge chance you could get was ~40%, and that was on jax. Problem is though that lifesteal has been going down the same path; marksmen have been and continue to be better tanks simply by lifestealing through any damage taken, leaving the only counter options to be sudden burst (mages & assassins) or using your own grievous wounds to cut their healing.

HalcyonDwellerJun 6, 20171 votes

That's a fair assessment. I personally agree, lifesteal is sometimes too strong. I simply disagreed with the juxtaposition of Dodge to the topic at hand.

ZT XperimentorJun 7, 20171 votes

Dodge was something that could be abused by about anyone if the enemy was unobservant. But I'm pointing out a rather significant double standard riot's been abusing for years. They removed spell vamp because they didn't want mages getting spikes of health back, however mages are gated by cooldowns and mana; marksmen get bursts of healing because critical hits apply lifesteal, and they aren't gated by anything other than attack speed and damage, which has been buffed multiple times and with more options.