Would Zed be better if they took the starting position shadow away from his ult?

Your Next Kill··8 votes·891 views

I feel like it would be. I want Zed to use his ult strategically, like most other champions. If he ults at a bad time, I want to be able to punish him for the time he's nearby and not have him blink away to where he started, which is very far away.

25 Comments

Hex the FenFen5 votes

Yes, I agree, but everyone will tell you to stop complaining, build a Zhonya's or QSS and hard CC him when he comes out of his ult. But I do agree 100%, he should not technically be rewarded for mis-using his ultimate.

Your Next Kill2 votes

That's not even the issue, I'd be fine with it being a unavoidable high-damage ability if he would actually have to use it wisely. But yeah I'm preparing for those to come cx

Nahui4 votes

Here's the problem. Zed has about the most counterplay to his kit that this game has seen. Even with his current kit with the starting shadow, he already falls off late game. Yes, he has 25% additonal AD from his shadow, no this does not mean he's meant for the late game. Late game, there's almost never a -good time- to ult. Everyone is grouped, everyone is waiting and ready for engages, this is why you don't see Kha'zix in the meta anymore. Too much grouping. So, remove Zed's beginning shadow and you have the conundrum of there never being an ideal time to ult, unless someone severely misplaces himself. Most of the time Zed is forced to use his W to be able to even get in range to ult. Then, the champion might have a zhonyas or a QSS, so already that's a lost assassination. There are so many factors that contribute as to why Zed needs an option to get out.

Yes, you can look at my match history and guess I main Zed. Yes, you can call me biased and say that discredits my word which is fine, it doesn't. Zed is squishy, you CC him during his ult and obliterate him in one big collapse. Happens all the time. If his assassination fails and he gets away, big deal. You shouldn't feel entitled to 300g because he failed to kill you. It's now effectively a 4v5 until his ult comes back because Zed without an ult is just a Q and an E every 5 or so seconds.

ll League God ll1 votes

{quoted}

Here's the problem. Zed has about the most counterplay to his kit that this game has seen. Even with his current kit with the starting shadow, he already falls off late game. Yes, he has 25% additonal AD from his shadow, no this does not mean he's meant for the late game. Late game, there's almost never a -good time- to ult. Everyone is grouped, everyone is waiting and ready for engages, this is why you don't see Kha'zix in the meta anymore. Too much grouping. So, remove Zed's beginning shadow and you have the conundrum of there never being an ideal time to ult, unless someone severely misplaces himself. Most of the time Zed is forced to use his W to be able to even get in range to ult. Then, the champion might have a zhonyas or a QSS, so already that's a lost assassination. There are so many factors that contribute as to why Zed needs an option to get out.

Yes, you can look at my match history and guess I main Zed. Yes, you can call me biased and say that discredits my word which is fine, it doesn't. Zed is squishy, you CC him during his ult and obliterate him in one big collapse. Happens all the time. If his assassination fails and he gets away, big deal. You shouldn't feel entitled to 300g because he failed to kill you. It's now effectively a 4v5 until his ult comes back because Zed without an ult is just a Q and an E every 5 or so seconds.

your zed is only squishy because you feel the need to break 500 ad every game to be effective which is completely not needed.

Try getting banshees, then see what people do when you ult... there is no counter play to that

Nahui4 votes

There is. Two spells. It also has a 45 second recharge rate. Break it early. It's that easy. Just throw pokes, it's what I do when I see enemy champs with Banshees. Once it's down, you have 45 whole seconds of easy CC. Zed is squishy, even with a banshees. He will last slightly longer sure, but not enough to make it hard completely annihilating him.

And there is easy counterplay to Zed's ult, even with a banshees. If you're AP, stay golden bro. You got 2.5 seconds of a 3 second ult to chill. You an AD? Enjoy never being marked. Let Leona or Thresh take it from here.

Papa Slothy3 votes

this would really fuck Zed up, the whole point is that he can ult at a bad time and he does get punished for doing it

he can't tp back to the shadow if he is cc'd, if you really think Zed has no bad times to ult, I can only imagine the 0 cc teamcomps

ll League God ll2 votes

First thing is first... i hate zed Second thing... this game is based around pro-play / draft pick, not blind pick... so if you dont have a champ with CC thats because you are in blind pick which is a mode designed for fun thirdly... as much as i hate zed, this would cripple him. Hes already easy enough to deal with most of the time

If anything, his shadow should have a range like oriannas ball where if he gets too far away it dissapears, that would be a more balanced way to deal with this

Nahui1 votes

I agree with this, and although he would probably need some sort of compensation buff or make the range fairly large, that shadow idea is actually pretty cool. This is coming from a Zed main too.

N00B PWN3R2 votes

Zed ult is already weak and semi-useless, no need to make it comlpetely useless.

Your Next Kill2 votes

......have you ever been ulted by a Zed?

N00B PWN3R2 votes

Yes?

Your Next Kill2 votes

Then you should know it's extremely strong. Basically a guaranteed death.

N00B PWN3R1 votes

Guaranteed BRONZE, now it makes sense.

Your Next Kill1 votes

You're level 24??

Zed's ult does a hell of a lot of damage if he isn't doing terrible. Even if he's been feeding or somthing, there's a good percentage of your health that's going to be lost.

Quepha1 votes

That's how Zed used to work, his shadow would appear behind you to add more damage so he would have to save his W to get out.

Slamurai Jack1 votes

It used to be that way, but he was really shitty when it worked like that so it was changed to the way it is now.

Nyhver1 votes

That would probably ruin Zed as far as viability goes

His deathmark 2nd hit, (where he teleports) already has a timer in which he can't press 'r' immediately so he has to wait, so his options are using a 'w', prepping with a 'w' or flashing

If you removed his teleport or increased the CD time on it, it would be really harsh for Zed because Zed can already be punished for his ulti- Zed always appears out of his deathmark initiation the same way every time, and I think if you time it properly, every CC can still hit him if he tries to flash/'w' out of it, it just has to be timed precisely

Hayaishi21 votes

Zed's problem is not his ultimate, his laning phase ATM is way stronger than it should be.

PDE5 Inhib1 votes

Zed would be worse, as in not as good. He would, however, be better in terms of balance if that's what you meant.

Adalore1 votes

Eh, he just needs a slightly rougher laning phase and maybe a higher CD on his ult. It never feels like the window is large enough to punish him even if you are intentionally doing so.

Spizzle90001 votes

Then you'd have to compensate a great deal by buffing his late game. The meta currently favors him, the itemization favors AD in general and AP items blow and are super expensive in comparison, and the buffs to Zed's W and ultimate are all contributing to how strong he is. If Riot ever deals with the item situation and AP champions actually have a chance, Zed will be basically balanced.

Spizzle90001 votes

Or, ya know, we could take a look at the core issues with Zed: the fact that the meta favors him heavily, the items favor AD to the point that it's ludicrous, and the buffs to his ultimate and W a while back. If the meta weren't so burst-oriented, if Hexdrinker and such weren't so fucking ridiculous (as well as AD items in general rn), and if AP items weren't so damn expensive for less, Zed would be a lot less spooky.

Streeton1 votes

that would kill zed my friend, anyway if you were to do that (terrible idea) you would have to buff his damage all around to the point where is like talon. Binary assassin that has a maximum of 3 seconds in a teamfight before he dies

Narsicus1 votes

Why cant him wasting his main initiate as well as a good portion of his burst be enough of a drawback?

Does Lux's laser stun her if she misses enemies so they can retaliate or Kennen get slowed if no one is in Maelstrom when he activates it?

Why can't wasting your ultimate ability for nothing be enough of a punishment?

Its a delayed super telegraphed initiate, quickly getting yourself in a position that forces Zed into uncomfortable positions is kind of the point. Also I don't believe you would like the buffs that would have to happen if Zed's assassination was made far more risky.

Nøble1 votes

Make it so that you can only teleport back to your ult shadow if you do enough damage that your ult will kill them, or if you kill them before it pops. This would mean that you could actually punish a zed for making a bad ult, and making it so that if he ults you and you outplay him by dodging his abilities or kiting him, that you can actually kill him instead of him just using his "get out of jail free card" to escape. You could also maybe factor item 3147 damage into that as well so that if you would do enough damage with ult plus item 3147 that it would allow you to teleport back as well.

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