It's unfair when Assassins instaburst ADCs who built no defensive items

Akali is SO HOT·Dec 21, 2016·173 votes·7,190 views

But it's perfectly fine when an ADC instakills an Assassin with undodgeable auto attacks.

238 Comments

PennsDec 21, 201633 votes

Also mages that do https://i.gyazo.com/79e69e0b293e3e35504fee4f7facf8b1.gif or (insert Syndra pressing R) have way more counterplay lel

RavenMagusDec 21, 201615 votes

Fortunately, ADCs have three different items that give them damage + MR and have powerful secondary abilities that are great against mages.

But there is nothing an assassin can build against an ADC.

MelledoneusDec 21, 20164 votes

MR is borderline useless against that kind of burst when you don't build HP to back it up.

TheDelightedDec 21, 20163 votes

Quite honestly, you should be able to kill someone if you blow up your entire combo on him. Lux and syndra has to set up their combos, have skillshots and are immobile, unlike many adcs and assassins (pre rework) who just jumped on you and killed you in less than a second and then got away like nothing happened with minimal to no resource costs.

PennsDec 21, 20163 votes

Lux has to hit a spammable ~1200 range skillshot first, yeah. Syndra doesnt really have to set up anything against squishies other than missing some Qs before maybe tho.

MirkhailDec 21, 20167 votes

Lux q is not really spammable because it have 11 second cooldown at level 5, even with CDR is still fairly long but there are good reasons for that.

ChaddyFantomeDec 21, 201626 votes

Upvote for truth. But expct to get downvoted by salty ADC mains.

Cryo00Dec 21, 201614 votes

The assassin rework made so many assassins slower in their execution. Alkali has to land two autos and her ult does laughable damage, zed is so easy to counter now. Talon needs to build his stacks unless he is obscenely fed. Rengar was bullshit not because of damage, but because of his other abilities, his damage source can now be sidestepped (Not exactly the easiest thing to do though).

Meanwhile Vayne, Caitlyn and Jhin can crit you for half you health, and thats completely fine.

MelledoneusDec 21, 201611 votes

At least Jhin has to work for his burst, and is immobile.

ArakadiaDec 22, 20162 votes

zed is so easy to counter now.

Didn't they only change his ult?

My Waifu VanillaDec 22, 20162 votes

Damage wide nerf across the board with W and itemization change (Lethality is honestly a worse stat than health regen on an item) and the fact that there are so many spammable shields and heals running around it doesn't matter if he reaches the carry half the time.

Also, almost every midlaner is taking double defensive summoners so it isn't like he can snowball against mages who do well against him in lane and that also have Exhaust.

Yosuke ApperuDec 22, 20163 votes

{quoted}

The assassin rework made so many assassins slower in their execution. Alkali has to land two autos and her ult does laughable damage, zed is so easy to counter now. Talon needs to build his stacks unless he is obscenely fed. Rengar was bullshit not because of damage, but because of his other abilities, his damage source can now be sidestepped (Not exactly the easiest thing to do though).

Meanwhile Vayne, Caitlyn and Jhin can crit you for half you health, and thats completely fine.

Hang on, how is zed so easy to counter now? They didn't change his kit almost at all. You still can't qss death mark. Where's the counter?

KnalxzDec 22, 201612 votes

Watching ADC's and assassins fight is like watching a room filled of balloons with needles attached to them slowly drift around.

dukevonartDec 22, 20163 votes

I like this analogy

AMYS GRAVEDec 21, 201611 votes

If this were reversed,

It's unfair when ADCs burst Assassins who built no defensive items, but ... blah...

would that make it less true? If both build glass cannon they should expect to get blown the fuck up by whoever gets the jump on the other. When assassins were allowed to get their full combo off in less than two autos then that was unfair for adcs, now adcs have been given the window to kill assassins in less time than assassins take to kill them. The balance has been screwed all to hell when adcs can lifesteal through an assassins combo though, the adcs survivability needs to be tied to teamplay.

ErockandrollDec 21, 201638 votes

{quoted}

If this were reversed,

It's unfair when ADCs burst Assassins who built no defensive items, but ... blah...

would that make it less true? If both build glass cannon they should expect to get blown the fuck up by whoever gets the jump on the other. When assassins were allowed to get their full combo off in less than two autos then that was unfair for adcs, now adcs have been given the window to kill assassins in less time than assassins take to kill them. The balance has been screwed all to hell when adcs can lifesteal through an assassins combo though, the adcs survivability needs to be tied to teamplay.

putting a glass cannon against a glass cannon, and the winner is going to be who ever lands the first punch.

And ADC had no ability to dodge the first punch when a full combo is executed in a split second. (often it's not enough time to flash, dash, or throw out a different summoner.) But now ADC's have that extended window, how do you give the Assassin the ability to outplay a potential counter attack? Largely the answer to that question is speed, trickery, and stealth.

When the winner is "who lands the first punch" both contestants need an equal ability to land that punch for it to be a fair fight.

Fondling GemsDec 21, 201622 votes

I wouldn't mind seeing all auto attacks function like Kalista where they miss when you lose vision. It would make it so assassins had to use the stealth mechanics so many of them have while opening them up to retaliation through skillshots. Just an idea of course, would probably take a bunch of balance work but that are what the Gameplay boards are here for.

GULAG 4 UDec 21, 20167 votes

That would be true....

If the gameplay boards actually submitted smart stuff.

(hint: They don't. They mostly shitpost and cry about balance champions and ask why 55% winrate champs are getting nerfed)

Fondling GemsDec 21, 20163 votes

Really? Here I though Gameplay was just where all the Memes and Games posts that according to Riot aren't memes or games go.

GULAG 4 UDec 22, 20164 votes

That's why it's called memes and gameplay. It's just circle jerking and QQing.

ModCaptainMårvelousDec 21, 201622 votes

Also worth noting: ADCs have an innate advantage because many assassins are melee and/or have only one gapcloser.

Talon jumps onto Caitlyn. Caitlyn Es. Talon Flashes. Caitlyn Flashes.

Caitlyn still has the range advantage. Talon has cooldowns to get into range. It's MUCH harder for an assassin to stick to a target now than it was a long time ago. Especially with the delayed burst window.

LightSwordDec 21, 201619 votes

Talon needs to use his kit more effectively, his ult gives him an unavoidable edge, and his e can give him the element of surprise if coming out of the fog of war. The way they reworked assassins means they have to think about how they will execute their target rather than "press buttons as fast as possible."

GULAG 4 UDec 21, 20168 votes

cough rengar cough

LightSwordDec 21, 20167 votes

Granted.

SpoofghoulDec 21, 201620 votes

But here is the thing

assassins are supposed to burst, which they still do

but ADC are supposed to DPS but they are bursting harder and faster then assassins, and doing so in dps They are also supposed to be glasscannon but 700 shields and heals galore these days oh and i forgot the insane amount of lifestealing

ThefrostyvikingDec 21, 20162 votes

{quoted}

But here is the thing

assassins are supposed to burst, which they still do

but ADC are supposed to DPS but they are bursting harder and faster then assassins, and doing so in dps They are also supposed to be glasscannon but 700 shields and heals galore these days oh and i forgot the insane amount of lifestealing

The shields and massive heals come from the supports. BT gives 350 in shields.

And burst can be measured in time taken to kill a target.

Nothing is faster than damm Rengar or Diana . They as assassins have the highest burst and can kill in under a second.

Don't mention Vayne , not even the ADC players talk about her.....

SpoofghoulDec 21, 20168 votes

i dont know man those twitch ult and cait headshots feel like they burst just as fast and those who lack that kind of burst like ezreal and lucian for example are more slippery then the assassins themselves

and then there is she who must not be named

ThefrostyvikingDec 22, 20164 votes

{quoted}

i dont know man those twitch ult and cait headshots feel like they burst just as fast and those who lack that kind of burst like ezreal and lucian for example are more slippery then the assassins themselves

and then there is she who must not be named

Twitch....is kinda the same as always, i can't help but wonder why people are suddenly noticing him.

Cait can't just pop headshots out of the blue, that passive demands autos first, only thing i am unsure of is if she shouldn't have a certain head shot for landing E. One could weaken her by taking that away and giving her a normal auto or maybe movement speed instead. Or boost the slow.

Lucian and ez ...only time i've felt bothered was when playing against frozen gauntlet ezreal who kept hitting my slow mage backside with his Q's keeping me slowed from outside my range while killing me rather quickly. Lucian has a short range and plenty of champs abuse him for it, he is a lane bully and little more.

....The one who must not be mentioned is not possible to defend. She is just broken and oppressive in all directions to the point where she makes Fed Rengar look like a kitten in a custom made santa costume&hat, adorable but silly and kinda pointless besides the adorableness.

EcchiOtakuTMDec 22, 20161 votes

Diana isn't an assassin actually, she's a bruiser or fighter as the renamed term puts it.

ThefrostyvikingDec 22, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Diana isn't an assassin actually, she's a bruiser or fighter as the renamed term puts it.

They did consider her as an assassin since she was available in the....allstars? Event where the only champions the players were allowed to use were assassins. And yes i know she sits in under the fighter tab in the client.

EcchiOtakuTMDec 23, 20161 votes

All-star doesn't matter since basically any dmg dealer were pickable who weren't assassins. It was just for fun though nothing to take serious.

But focusing on diana, she has too much of a reliable hard CC, innate tankiness, and contrary to popular belief sustained dmg, to be an assassin.

Riot designed her as a bruiser but due to high ratios players build her to assassinate (personally I'd say she's the most balanced of champs who could be cconvincing pseudo-assassins). If the new terms finally updated fighter->diver would be more accurate but she can get too innately tanky with her double shield, sustained dmg and consistant hard CC to be regarded as an assassin when refering to the role directly.

I mostly say this constantly so riot can accurately fix the terms, may seem pushy to want it as precise as possible, sorry for that.

But at least it's not cho who perfectly fits into 3 classes.... That guy is a lovable headache.

ThefrostyvikingDec 23, 20162 votes

{quoted}

All-star doesn't matter since basically any dmg dealer were pickable who weren't assassins. It was just for fun though nothing to take serious.

But focusing on diana, she has too much of a reliable hard CC, innate tankiness, and contrary to popular belief sustained dmg, to be an assassin.

Riot designed her as a bruiser but due to high ratios players build her to assassinate (personally I'd say she's the most balanced of champs who could be cconvincing pseudo-assassins). If the new terms finally updated fighter->diver would be more accurate but she can get too innately tanky with her double shield, sustained dmg and consistant hard CC to be regarded as an assassin when refering to the role directly.

I mostly say this constantly so riot can accurately fix the terms, may seem pushy to want it as precise as possible, sorry for that.

But at least it's not cho who perfectly fits into 3 classes.... That guy is a lovable headache.

Nom nom nom OP x)

But i googled the champion pools for recent all starts assassin event and only champs that didnt come from the assassin tab in the client were diana and pantheon, albeit they both had to go full damage with the odd hybrid items. So riot seems to consider her as one still?

aspects1Dec 21, 20163 votes

the purpose of an assassin is to kill an adc, but if an adc is a better assassin than an assassin i think we have a problem

ThefrostyvikingDec 21, 20163 votes

{quoted}

the purpose of an assassin is to kill an adc, but if an adc is a better assassin than an assassin i think we have a problem

Except no meta assassin fails at killing any ADCs except Vayne . The only exception is the ADC being massively fed but both mages and bruisers become oppressive as hell too when fed to a point. Tell me one meta assassin that fails at killing ADC's near instantly if played well, i dare you.

MissingKayoDec 21, 20164 votes

None of them, because the only meta assassins are Kha'Zix and Rengar.

RalanrDec 21, 201610 votes

Was thinking about this actually. Makes me wonder how the assassin rework would have gone if they released Ghostblade with the AA deflection active. Or maybe just gave it a dodge active?

Actually a lethality item with a dodge active could solve a lot of problems.

PennsDec 21, 20165 votes

And a melee only high ap+magic pen item right?

MelledoneusDec 21, 20167 votes

For all of our melee AP assassins. Here's the list: Fizz Kassadin Ekko Katarina

All problematic champs in the past that could use an item as a lever.

QuortDec 21, 20165 votes

I believe you're missing Katarina and Akali.

MelledoneusDec 21, 20168 votes

I don't consider Akali an assassin at this point. She's like a shittier version of Diana. Sort of like a diver at this point.

ThefrostyvikingDec 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I don't consider Akali an assassin at this point. She's like a shittier version of Diana. Sort of like a diver at this point.

Akali is surprisingly strong post 6 early and mid but she drops like a falling moon lategame.

MelledoneusDec 22, 201610 votes

You mean like this? http://i.makeagif.com/media/7-03-2015/nqFcSH.gif

ThefrostyvikingDec 22, 20163 votes

{quoted}

You mean like this? http://i.makeagif.com/media/7-03-2015/nqFcSH.gif

Gif is on point.

StrawberrycocoaDec 21, 20165 votes

Because Assassins pounce out of nowhere 100-0 then disappear before you can even react to them and it's so much more aggravating than engaging on an ADC who mostly just chunks you down over a few seconds instead of an all-in dump.

Akali is SO HOTDec 21, 201617 votes

That's false especially after the Assassin rework. After the class wide Assassin nerfs, you have more than enough time to do something about an Assassin whereas the ADC has targeted auto attacks that do 1k damage each that have no way to be outplayed and can't miss all while having 4 other people protecting them.

ArakadiaDec 22, 20161 votes

targeted auto attacks that do 1k damage each

This is only plausible with a late game, pure/mostly damage build. And by a Cait headshot or Draven Q. Despite the delays, Assassins can still melt a squishes health bar late game. They'are just not very good at it atm. And yes an ADC can just lifesteal the health back if you don't kill them first, but thats a problem with ADC's, lifesteal, and/or damage creep.