Maybe this would be op in season 1/2 but now the mobility powercreep is out of control. I dont see reason to why syndra can cast all her skills waking and karthus dont.
Varalessia5 votesBecause her Q is on a higher cd and slightly lower range, as well as her other abilities being being tied to that specific ability, meaning she needs to be able to press it as often as possible without losing ground.
Lil Soybean2 votesAs a Karthus main, I used to want this buff as well, until I came to understand that he could be really broken with it. It might sound like a negligible change, but his Q is like the mage equivalent of an ADC's auto-attack - he kites with them, and the little time invested in each Q is like the stutter-stepping you do as an ADC when you orbwalk.
For him to Q without pausing would be like an ADC that could keep moving while attacking. Or...sort of like Kalista.
Which he kind of looks like anyway.
Either way, I'd love it if he got this change, but it'd probably be over the top. And I'd hate it if he suddenly became super popular and banworthy or nerfworthy. Then that would suck.
Cheeseyoger1 votes[{quoted}](name=Lil Soybean,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BtPh5tPh,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-08-17T04:26:07.539+0000)
As a Karthus main, I used to want this buff as well, until I came to understand that he could be really broken with it. It might sound like a negligible change, but his Q is like the mage equivalent of an ADC's auto-attack - he kites with them, and the little time invested in each Q is like the stutter-stepping you do as an ADC when your orbwalk.
For him to Q without pausing, it'd be like an ADC that could keep moving while attacking. Or...sort of like Kalista.
Which he kind of looks just like anyway.
Either way, I'd love it if he got this change. Unless he suddenly became super popular and banworthy or nerfworthy. Then that would suck.
This is a great explanation! That makes a lot of sense. Comparing it to auto attacks, though; auto attacks don't miss, so might this be acceptable balance wise as a skill shot with a visible delay on it?
Lil Soybean2 votesThis is a great explanation! That makes a lot of sense. Comparing it to auto attacks, though; auto attacks don't miss, so might this be acceptable balance wise as a skill shot with a visible delay on it?
Okay, bear with me. You don't have to read all of this, but it's all relevant, I promise.
The idea, from my viewpoint, is that his Q is a mage auto attack that costs
But is balanced by...
The thing about buffs like the one OP proposed is that it's sort of what I'd call a "fundamental breaking" buff.
With those, you start by saying, "Hmm, Karthus is weak compared to other meta midlaners at the moment."
But instead of following up with, "Let's buff his numbers so he becomes more viable," you follow up with, "Let's change a fundamental design point of his kit, in a way that acts as a net buff."
That can lead to a lot of issues. A lot.
See, Karthus isn't necessarily weak because of the nature of his kit (which is quite well designed). Even "mobility creep" doesn't stop him from being a monster in the right hands.
If he's weak at all right now, it's just due to the current meta, and/or power level of the current meta midlaners.
But after the cycle of nerfs continues, it's very possible Karthus could come into favor again. And that's where the problem starts.
At that point, you have Karthus as a top pick, AND he no longer has to pause to cast his Q's, because of the change OP suggested.
Suddenly, instead of it being a 'small buff that's helpful for Karthus mains', it becomes "an extremely aggravating lack of counterplay in a popular midlaner's kit."
No one has many complaints about Karthus right now, but can you imagine a world where Rylai's Karthus is in every game casting Q with no delay? He becomes unchase-able. That's a 40% permanent slow that he can now continuously apply while cruising away from you. Do you know how aggravating that'd be if his numbers were stronger as well?
But even more than just being unchase-able, he'd be nearly inescapable. Right now, your Rylai's makes subsequent Q's easier to land, but even more importantly, it lets you chase people down with ease. Just cut them off with one Rylai's Q, and you can chain-slow them as you slowly approach. This would be way, way, way easier if he didn't have to pause to cast his Q. In essence, it would almost act like buffing his Q range - because you don't have to stutter anymore, you can close in on people much faster when you're chain slowing them.
All of these issues are avoided by having the small stutter-step with each Q cast. That's why it's part of his kit: he's designed and balanced around it.
So, does Karthus need buffs?
Well, he doesn't need them, but they'd be helpful.
But if he does get buffs, it probably should be strictly in terms of number improvements, (I.E. damage increased or cooldowns lowers) rather than giving him a "fundamental breaking" buff, so to speak.
Sorry for the essay, I've just thought a lot about it since I spent so long learning Karthus.
Cheeseyoger1 votesI'm starting to get the idea that the best buff Karthus could get right now, is for people to understand him better. I can't really imagine a good scenario for Karthus before team fighting starts, and even then only if the team is cohesive and reliably peels for him to get nice and involved in everything.
I realize you've already put a lot into this, but could you explain Karthus to us the way you see him, Soybean? Explain to us what his strengths are, how he uses them, what effects he brings that way, how he approaches laning phase, how he responds to early game tower divers, how mobile champions effect him, how tanks and bursters effect him. Basically how Karthus fits into league currently as something other than either the angry gold pinata with a passive or the guy just close enough to skittles blast his own front line while waiting for the moment to ult.
Lil Soybean2 votesI'm starting to get the idea that the best buff Karthus could get right now, is for people to understand him better. I can't really imagine a good scenario for Karthus before team fighting starts, and even then only if the team is cohesive and reliably peels for him to get nice and involved in everything.
I realize you've already put a lot into this, but could you explain Karthus to us the way you see him, Soybean? Explain to us what his strengths are, how he uses them, what effects he brings that way, how he approaches laning phase, how he responds to early game tower divers, how mobile champions effect him, how tanks and bursters effect him. Basically how Karthus fits into league currently as something other than either the angry gold pinata with a passive or the guy just close enough to skittles blast his own front line while waiting for the moment to ult.
Wow, ah...yeah, I could give my perspective on him, why I think his design is beautiful in how synergistic his abilities are, etc...but I feel like there's not a whole lot of demand for that. I think it's useful for me to put out the Karthus information that I did, but it's too much text already, heh.
53436278DEL11 voteshe can
Posui Gart1 votesHe needs some REAL lategame buffs, his lategame is either average(if you can hit your Qs in a chaos of a teamfight), or nothing(if you can't). Your buff makes him stronger during lanephase, and he already is strong there. My ideas(not nesessary all of them at once)
Lil Soybean2 votes[{quoted}](name=Posui Gart,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BtPh5tPh,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-08-17T09:33:45.923+0000)
He needs some REAL lategame buffs, his lategame is either average(if you can hit your Qs in a chaos of a teamfight), or nothing(if you can't). Your buff makes him stronger during lanephase, and he already is strong there. My ideas(not nesessary all of them at once)
- Make his Q's cooldown unaffected by CDR, but instead increase its damage based on CDR. So with 40% cdr instead of firing Q 66,7% more often, you deal 66,7% more damage with each Q
- Add MS buff for allies passing through his wall
- If he is casting his ult while in his passive, it will not end until ult is fired(so it will not just cancel your ultimate if you mistimed)
- Remove indicator for enemies on his ult or make it bypass all shields and invulnerability. and also place GW on all targets for channeling time(so no more hard countering from Soraka, Fizz, Fiora and every other invulnerability/mass shields/mass heal)
- Karthus's Q is now concidered single-target spell if it hits only one target(obvious buff for spellvamp and Rylai)
Sounds incredibly broken.
Sounds reasonable, I'd really like this one.
That would be nice, but they have the duration set to 7 seconds for a reason. You're supposed to manage whether you want to get off more Qs, or invest 3 seconds worth of your passive into channeling your ultimate. So it wouldn't make sense for them to change this.
That's not so much a 'buff' as it is removing all counterplay. An ultimate that strikes every enemy at infinite range is only balanced because it's so easily countered by shields, heals, etc. (As well as being on a long cooldown.) So that's not going to change.
This is already the case. And this is why Tear->Rylai's has been vastly superior to RoA on Karthus for a long, long time now. BEFORE the Rylai's buffs, single-target Q's applied a 35% slow for 1.5s...every second. Now, they apply a 40% slow for 1.5s every second, or 1s if they hit multiple targets.
So the effectiveness of Rylai's wasn't buffed so much for him, just the reliability of the slow. (it only increased from 35%-40%, but you don't have to hit the enemy single-target for that full slow anymore.)
It's also the reason Karthus jungle used to be a thing. Spellvamp quints apply fully on single-target Q's of his.
Fun fact: This also means that Karthus can proc Manamune's bonus physical damage with his Q, if it hits only a single enemy. Karthus can also weave an auto attack within each Q cast, meaning that you can auto-Q-auto-Q for 2 manamune procs per second.
Of course, you'd have to have perfect aim and you'd have to be sitting pretty much completely still, so it's a silly idea. But it might be fun to try out in a custom game or a normal game sometime.
Posui Gart1 votesLil Soybean2 votes[{quoted}](name=Posui Gart,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BtPh5tPh,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2015-08-17T10:51:59.287+0000)
- But why? It gives same DPS increase
- Then maybe if its cancelled in such way, it will not put spell on a cd
- It has huge cd and it deals relatively low damage. At least let it bypass untargetability, it is too easy for someone like Fizz to avoid 150+cd ultimate.
- Wow, that was something I didn't know.
But the main reason is his Q.
That's why Karthus wasn't broken in Urf. He could cast 5 Q's a second, in theory...but he'd practically root himself in place to do so. Meaning that your target had to stand almost still within your range for you to stack your Q's on them, and meanwhile, you can't dodge any of their skillshots, or kite, or chase, etc.
OP's suggestion is actually problematic largely for that reason. Removing the stutter-step on Karthus Q could actually make CDR reasonably efficient on Karthus...which means that, by extension, Karthus players will have their ulti up more often, which was not the intended buff.
It's sort of like if you gave Zed mana and/or made him AP. He might suffer from not being able to spam as much early on...but you have to look at the overall implications. Can you imagine if Zed could build the AP CDR/Mana-regen items, letting him efficiently build 40% CDR and spam shadows & shurikens endlessly, with items like Athene's and Morello's? It would be an unintended consequence with severe downsides.
Just like - potentially - the buffs you and OP suggest for Karthus. Because they're not all simply 'number buffs', they're changes to his kit's core design.
I'd be cool with his ulti cooldown being lower if it was interrupted by an enemy.
I'd also like it if you could self-cancel it, like Xerath's ult, but I imagine that's not possible for specific design purposes. For example - you wouldn't want Karthus throwing down his ulti just to bait the enemies into wasting their Zhonya's and/or heals before a big teamfight, only to cancel the ulti channel and have it back up soon.
But because you can't self-cancel the channel currently, I think lowering the cooldown when it's interrupted (like Teleport) would probably be fair.
Then increase the damage or lower the cooldown. Buffing a spell by removing its counterplay isn't the way to go. It's sort of like saying, "Soraka's basic heal should cleanse grievous wounds." Maybe that sounds like a fair change, on paper, but that's actually a terrible design choice. Grievous wounds exist to lower incoming healing. Counterplay to an enemy picking Soraka is to build Morello's and apply Grievous wounds to her healing targets. What's the point of having Soraka's healing immune to the exact passive that's supposed to counter healing?
In the same way, it would be a bad design choice to make Karthus ult bypass invulnerabilities. Those are the counters to his ultimate. You'd end up with a whole lot more people angry at its new lack of counterplay rather than people happy about the buff.
SKOBODO1 votesKarthus with Rylai's would be able to kite really well.
It would be pretty scary in URF, heh.
