What makes Karma so weak right now?

NY64·Jul 16, 2018·12 votes·8,304 views

I know she has a terrible win rate right now but I have trouble understanding that. She has the poke of Zyra and Brand, the shielding of Janna, and the movement speed boost that she can give to one person or her whole team. I know she has gotten some recent nerfs like lowered shield duration and heal and shielding power items getting nerfed, but they didn't really hurt the other supports like her. I've skimmed through her patch history but I had trouble finding the things that ruined her as a good champion. I understand the current meta not being favorable for her but with a 45% win rate, there has to be something else I'm missing. Could someone tell me what changed Karma from a good champion to absolute garbage?

39 Comments

remakoroJul 16, 20187 votes

0 CC. Running around for 2s before you can ROOT one target just does not work in this meta. Thats probably the worst CC ability in the entire game. I would rate even slows above that.

Very shitty nerf to shields on someone who was reduced to being shieldbot long ago.

Bob the ToastrJul 16, 20181 votes

Funny because even though you consider it the worst CC in the game it's actually got the second longest duration of any CC in the game when empowered (3.25 seconds, Ashe arrow is best with 3.5)

SilverSquidJul 16, 20182 votes

Well, lenght isn't everything (huehue).

But seriously, W has a casttime of roughly 0.5s and a duration of 2.0s This kind of delay is already hard. But then you consider that Karma needs to have W maxed to get the full 3.25, which most Karma players don't have until 16-18, a point where most games nowadays are OVER already, and THEN compare it to Morgana's Q, who can hit the root INSTANTLY at a duration of 2-3s, which most Morgana's max first, you kind of get a perspective on how shitty that spell's proclaimed "longest root in the game" actually is. But you are right, it still makes it kinda ironic. Such a strong root, yet so bad.

Bob the ToastrJul 16, 20182 votes

I realize that, I'm just noting that it's interesting that it has such a long duration but it's so hard to get off (huehue)

Honestly I'm not sure why her tether range is so small compared to lb's chains.

SilverSquidJul 16, 20181 votes

Since it's a point & click ability and Karma can slow the enemy and haste herself, this ability needs to be kinda shitty on its own. Sure you can argue that LeBlanc has the slow built into it and can even dash, and to that I can only say: Well.... fuck.

No, honestly speaking, it just can be so much better, because it's a skillshot. Blergh.

My point is, that it's a shitty ability, requires no skill and is gated by conditions instead. Bad conditions. But I've heard rumors of Riot working on it anyways, so I'm thrilled to see what they wanna do with it.

Steel BlossomJul 16, 20181 votes

{quoted}

0 CC. Running around for 2s before you can ROOT one target just does not work in this meta. Thats probably the worst CC ability in the entire game. I would rate even slows above that.

Very shitty nerf to shields on someone who was reduced to being shieldbot long ago.

Shield Janna bots Ivern are Lulu so item 3504 weak item 3190 ...honestly, if reliable oneshots on assassins should not be a thing, then on-demand point and click effective health for your teammates shouldn't be a thing either. Either you make everything telegraphed/delayed, or you don't make anything telegraphed/delayed at all. That's like the textbook definition of "fair", right?

SilverSquidJul 16, 20181 votes

I think that was the point of reducing shielding duration... shields are supposed to be about timing, not shutting down any damage all the time. Just imagine a support with a shield that blocks 1000 damage, 1s duration and has a 60s cooldown. You gotta choose VERY wisely when to use that. But then imagine a support with a 100 damage shield on a 5s cooldown, that lasts 5 seconds. Now that's stupid.

Shields are supposed to be reactionary and used cleverly at the right time. Not something you throw down all the time, just to be safe. As such, they also don't need to be telegraphed. They are the thing you react to telegraphed abilities with. That's the point. And they are supposed to be bait-able. Why they aren't, if they last forever and are up constantly...

Steel BlossomJul 16, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I think that was the point of reducing shielding duration... shields are supposed to be about timing, not shutting down any damage all the time. Just imagine a support with a shield that blocks 1000 damage, 1s duration and has a 60s cooldown. You gotta choose VERY wisely when to use that. But then imagine a support with a 100 damage shield on a 5s cooldown, that lasts 5 seconds. Now that's stupid.

Shields are supposed to be reactionary and used cleverly at the right time. Not something you throw down all the time, just to be safe. As such, they also don't need to be telegraphed. They are the thing you react to telegraphed abilities with. That's the point. And they are supposed to be bait-able. Why they aren't, if they last forever and are up constantly...

lol, "I need to time it right" is nowhere near enough justification for any sort of strength. Pre-rework, Talon Katarina Fiora all required good timing. AP Yi required good timing. There's a reason why none of them are around anymore.

SilverSquidJul 16, 20182 votes

Not timing, reacting.

But you know, even timing would be a good justification for strength, actually... Like Swain's W, for example. The harder an ability is to apply or be used at full value, the stronger it can be. Be it timing, combining, aiming, ressource management, you name it...

But it is indeed bad, if things have no counterplay. "Click: You are damaged now" is unfun for both parties in most cases. "Click: Use some defensive manevuer or get damaged" feels way fairer. But for that you need to have defensive maneuvers that can be used in the blink of an eye. I.e. counterplay needs to be quick. Shields are counterplay. They don't need delay.

Steel BlossomJul 16, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Not timing, reacting.

But you know, even timing would be a good justification for strength, actually... Like Swain's W, for example. The harder an ability is to apply or be used at full value, the stronger it can be. Be it timing, combining, aiming, ressource management, you name it...

But it is indeed bad, if things have no counterplay. "Click: You are damaged now" is unfun for both parties in most cases. "Click: Use some defensive manevuer or get damaged" feels way fairer. But for that you need to have defensive maneuvers that can be used in the blink of an eye. I.e. counterplay needs to be quick. Shields are counterplay. They don't need delay.

...So, first of all, you're saying that counterplays need to be quick and don't need delays, right? So aren't assassins inherently a niche pick to counter high-priority backlines? Why do any of them need any counterplay, since they're already counterplays to something?

Second, "Click: you now have twice as much effective health" doesn't actually feel good to deal with at all, nor is it fair. In the end, keeping someone alive and killing someone are both just generic goals, and the ability to ignore your opponent's actions and accomplish your own goal is unhealthy, regardless of whether it's peel or dive.

Finally, diving as point-and-click assassins required "fast reactions" too. Against any decent player, opportunities for dives are very much blink-and-you-miss-it. Only clinical retards will stay in your range after they become vulnerable to you.

SilverSquidJul 17, 20182 votes

Why do any of them need any counterplay, since they're already counterplays to something?

You are mixing up roles and abilities.

"Click: you now have twice as much effective health" doesn't actually feel good to deal with at all, nor is it fair.

Yeah, because you are leaving out the fact that it's only for a short amount of time and has a cooldown. The point is to attack when those are down. Bait them out. Or burst through them. They don't block all damage, just some. For some time. There inherently is counterplay to that.

Finally, diving as point-and-click assassins required "fast reactions" too.

No it requires decision making and execution. It is them that need to react quickly if you start the aggression.

Steel BlossomJul 17, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You are mixing up roles and abilities.

Yeah, because you are leaving out the fact that it's only for a short amount of time and has a cooldown. The point is to attack when those are down. Bait them out. Or burst through them. They don't block all damage, just some. For some time. There inherently is counterplay to that.

No it requires decision making and execution. It is them that need to react quickly if you start the aggression.

First, if something is a "counterplay", it shouldn't matter if it's a role countering another or a spell countering another spell. Counters are counters, we can't have double standards here.

Second, what's so hard about clicking your ally? By this point, Riot has made pretty much all forms of aggression telegraphed as fuck. You see a guy walk up to your ADC, you shield your ADC. Even if the shield doesn't get hit, you can just walk away until it's up again. Believe it or not, assassins and divers also have CDs, and if they force you back to then use that CD on your team, they don't have that CD for you anymore, and it's now safe for you to go back in. So, the likely scenario will just be both the back line and the guy looking to dive it sitting out of a fight completely. Having to burst through shields is even worse, since that requires the assassin/diver to have such overloaded damage that he can outright ignore the enemy peeler. That is still a no-interaction kind of situation. It's just stat check, plain and simple. Also, I don't have to tell you that any diver is as good as dead if he doesn't kill his target first in a certain amount of time, right? Shields don't need to stop all damages--as long as it effectively stalls, it's going to shut down enemy aggression.

Finally, can you understand what I'm saying at all? A dive has to be made during the split second between the enemy wasting a CD/droping below your kill threshold, and realizing that you can kill him now. You need to capitalize on opportunities immediately, because the enemy is getting the fuck out of your range as soon as their reaction catches up to the game.

SilverSquidJul 17, 20182 votes

First, if something is a "counterplay", it shouldn't matter if it's a role countering another or a spell countering another spell. Counters are counters, we can't have double standards here.

A role can be better against other roles and that's fine. But a role can't literally counter another role, as some well performed actions may do. That's why most roles only soft-counter one another. So you might say a champion. who has a 55% winrate over another is a "counter", but it isn't the same way actions can negate another action and still be healthy.

Second, what's so hard about clicking your ally?

Timing. Awareness. If you click too late your ally already has taken the damage and the shield is wasted. If you click too early the enemy can choose not to use his cooldown, wait till the shield is down and then go in.

Even if the shield doesn't get hit, you can just walk away until it's up again.

If the aggressor has to back off because there is a shield he has missjudged that it's up, he has missjudged his power in bursting through and/or the shield has done its job. That's why you engage when key abilities are down. That's why new Zed players blow up when moving into the enemy team, because they didn't let their tank eat most of the CC first.

So, the likely scenario will just be both the back line and the guy looking to dive it sitting out of a fight completely.

If the backline never has to use cooldowns, then yes. But if the enemy team can win the frontline fight without using any cooldowns the game is pretty much over anyways.

It's just stat check, plain and simple.

That's a problem with shields, yes. And one of the reasons Karma flip-flops into and out of relevancy ever since they took the damage away from her RE; if the only thing a shield (or shielding character) does is shielding, then he will be oppressive if good, and useless if behind. But gladly most shields do more than just shield and most supports do more than just shield. It's just one of the reactionary actions they have at their disposal, next to some CC.

A dive has to be made during the split second between the enemy wasting a CD/droping below your kill threshold, and realizing that you can kill him now.

That's why longer cooldowns for defensive actions - such as shields - makes sense. As a game designer you need to create windows of opportunity for divers/assassins. I am just opposed to calling this dive a "reaction" since it makes talking about shields and counter-actions a bit confusing.

ZephyrDrakeJul 17, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I think that was the point of reducing shielding duration... shields are supposed to be about timing, not shutting down any damage all the time. Just imagine a support with a shield that blocks 1000 damage, 1s duration and has a 60s cooldown. You gotta choose VERY wisely when to use that. But then imagine a support with a 100 damage shield on a 5s cooldown, that lasts 5 seconds. Now that's stupid.

Shields are supposed to be reactionary and used cleverly at the right time. Not something you throw down all the time, just to be safe. As such, they also don't need to be telegraphed. They are the thing you react to telegraphed abilities with. That's the point. And they are supposed to be bait-able. Why they aren't, if they last forever and are up constantly...

I can imagine those shields and the insanely high CD shield would never be useful at all. Sorry but that type of shield will have no use at all in the game no matter what. Shields should be reactionary yes, but there is a difference between "you must time this perfectly or else completely waste the skill" and "I can spam this no problem all the time" Both extremes are horrible. Shields need to have some form of period where you don't need to time it perfectly and 2.5 seconds which is what pretty much every single shield lasts is a pretty good spot.

Also a 100 damage shield that last 5s on a shield that has a 5s CD is only really stupid if the damage of the game is barely able to reach that but if any form of damage is able to get rid of the shield then how long it lasts and what the CD is, doesn't really matter in the end.

SilverSquidJul 17, 20182 votes

Both extremes are horrible.

That was my point.

Shields that last too long are boring, shields that last too shortly are impractical. Shields with no CD deny counterplay, shields with too long CD make choosing any "right" situation impossible.

There is a sweetspot in there and shorter shields force you more to think about the "right" timing, whereas not being impractically short. Like, they are still blocking more than one instance of damage.

SilverSquidJul 16, 20187 votes

2 cents from a long term Karma main:

Compared to Brand & Zyra, Karma's damage falls off. Her CC is soft and unreliable. Support Karma's value comes from early game oppression and lategame shieldspamming. Compared to Janna and Lulu for example, Karma had ONLY shielding to offer though. A Lulu probably doesn't care that much about 2.5 or 4s shields, since it's only one of the many things she does. Karma's support value, however, comes from her shields and her shields alone. And nerfing a TEAMWIDE shield by 1.5s is huge.

The nerf to her shielding also meant worse trades in sololanes as well, but that's besides the point. Currently Karma is competitive because of her strong pre 6 RQ (mantra-Q), that pushes waves faster than any other champ. From safety.

Since they are nerfing that TOO on the pbe, for the competitive szene, she is probably gonna drop dead until her upcoming small-scale rework in a few patches. But let's see what they have in store for her there.

inplaneJul 16, 20184 votes

Outdated and impractical utility, bland kit, shieldbot in a Meta that actively discourages shields, and one 1 ONE inconsistent damaging spell. It's not hard to see why Karma is so bad. And trust me when I say she's never been this terrible because I've been playing her since Season 3 and she's one of my most used champs aside from Bard and Taliyah . She's simply outclassed. Why? Because she has lost everything unique to her.

Karma needs her shield bomb on Mantra E again. It's one of the few things unique to her and it was a good perk to have when playing like a Battlemage. Instead, it was removed in favour of shield spamming only for said shield to be nerfed to the ground.

IxtaliKingJul 16, 20183 votes

A few things that make her weak right now:

Unreliable damage (with poor target selection) which falls off a cliff when built as support (or tank).
A weak and unreliable W which is severely limited and binary.
A weak shield (without Mantra) which has been nerfed both by duration and itemization.
AP no longer being the core stat for her Mantras creating 3 separate build paths (tank, mage or support), so on top of everything else, she's unable to itemize for optimal use of her kit.

IllabetheJul 16, 20183 votes

She does NOT have the poke of Zyra/Brand. She has one primary damage ability and it only does about 15-20% more damage than ONE of Zyra's abilities and no persistent damage. Same with Brand.

They both have THREE primary abilities to kill with. Her W is not a kill kit......

When you stack up Zyra's PRIMARY damage she can easily do over 3k damage in one combo. Karma's lucky to get to 900 damage. And Zyra's plants can outright kill champs AFTER skills (assuming they run instead of killing them)

Her shield is MUCH smaller than Janna's, and the move speed bonus only lasts 1.5 second. It also scales much lower than other move speed abilities.
She was only running 47% prior to the shield nerf, so a drop to 45% isn't significant.

So...... why do people generally consider her weak?

Her Q generally is cursed by minion block. As a support she constantly has to put herself at risk for a pull from champs like . It has a HUGE hit box, which makes it really easy to tag a minion rather than the champ behind them.
In 8.2. They made single target skills draw minion aggro. In other words, her W is now a liability. If she tries to W in support role as clench plays, she now draws 6-8 minions to attack her.
When Runes Reforged was released, Karma got no significant rewards or compensation. She also lost the access she needed to fundamental masteries like Fearless (which gave you a 2 second defense buff when damaged by enemies) In other words, Season 8 made her squishier and reduced her ability to survive W's and in general.
Champs who Karma used to be a niche counter to like have been buffed and buffed and buffed and have extremely high play rates. Yasuo used to be an easy to counter champ, but with Conquerer, Karma can't reduce his damage enough, and his damage with is now MOSTLY true damage and spammable. So even if you W him, and can hit skills, he now can kill Karma before she W second ticks. Yi now also kills her too fast, as does Tryndamere with his spin cooldown reduction + all the Conquerer/True damage buffs.
Her MAGE identity was lost in Patch 5.5, where her E lost its damage. Her Q and W alone don't do enough damage usually to actually solo damage enough to mage.
She used to be a bot in Season 7, which somewhat supported her win rates as a team buffer. Now it generally doesn't do enough to carry the game.

HP CrookshanksJul 16, 20182 votes

She has only 2 abilities (Q and E). Her ult just empowers her Q or E and her passive is a part of her ult. She has a terrible W that only useful when built tank.

NekoniClawsJul 16, 20182 votes

Karma, burst damage? No Hard CC to counter burst damage? Noh Shield enough to counter burst damage? Noses.

DeathfallJul 16, 20182 votes

Honestly, it was the entire relaunch. They didn't keep a lot of her old kit that was actually working. The old kit, minus the passive, made more sense than what we have now. All of Karma's current mantra abilities fit different play-styles while Karma's old mantra abilities fit her, but interacted with her allies in unique ways. The new players that never got to play old Karma really missed out because they rely on us to let them know how good she was before. Before he relaunch Karma was played primarily in the midlane and top lane. Karma was actually played in the top lane more than any other role. What RIot did was completely ignore players and what Karma used to be, to give us a kit that does nothing, makes no sense, and is incomplete.

You ask why she is weak? Karma was given a kit that just doesn't work. Players have been pleading for years now for this Development team to do something but they have yet to do anything. I don't even think they are going to do anything to fix her. Every single Developer things her relaunch was successful and that it put her in the spot she was meant to be in. She has some of the worst pick and winrates for years now and is only meta when a insane shield buff is given to her or Ardent was meta.

Don't get me started on Karma's incomplete visuals and thematic. The relaunch was a failure and they know it but Developers like Reav3s and Meddler only care about specific champions. That doesn't include Karma.

PaffWasTakenJul 16, 20182 votes

I don't understand either. In game a Karma can almost one shot a squishy with a R-Q with item 3285 and then I see Karma mains saying she terribly lacks damage. Not sure why but ok

IllabetheJul 16, 20181 votes

She only has that capacity vs people who build wrong. One Resist item puts her down to about 500 damage one ability.

I literally have to first item item 3135 for what you just said to even be remotely true vs players who know how to build.

Queen SansaJul 16, 20181 votes

Youre overstating it. I have never seen Karma 100-0 a squishy with just RQ. I challenge you to send me a gameplay in more current patch where she dpes that.
While RQ does a lot of damage, it is however very hard to land because how short range and how easily people can bodyblock it from carries, rendering Karma from doing damage. Its not that Karma doent have damage, she just doesnt hv the capability to deliver it.

Get yo facts right

IxtaliKingJul 16, 20182 votes

https://giphy.com/gifs/THHpquWiM1xbk8FWil

https://giphy.com/gifs/82JaN5pVSdWbus2K0S

https://giphy.com/gifs/8Z8mxW3MT0VPewguRw

But still, it takes a lot more than just item 3285 to oneshot with RQ.

ZephyrDrakeJul 17, 20182 votes

her shield have been nerfed to pretty much near useless status and poke of a Zyra? maybe really early on but as the game goes on, her damage is just going to get blocked by tanks or minions so her damage is pretty insignificant unlike Zyra's that at least is able to zone people and her damage can reach the backline way easier. Also her poke is nowhere near as good as Brand sorry, not in any stage of the game.

That leaves Karma with a subpar poke, subpar shields and a skill that is useless in 90% of the situations ( W ). I wonder why she is in a bad spot

jocomotionJul 17, 20182 votes

There’s literally no reason to realistically pick her

You compared her poke to Zyra and Brand and her shielding to Janna, and you’re not completely wrong, however Karma’s pone is nowhere near as good as other poke supports,

she’s only got one ability for poking that doesn’t scale well despite its high base damage
she’s got low defenses so getting in close to harass with tether never happens unless it’s to close in on a kill, and even then it’s unreliable, she’s got no real ultimate to make her harassment a major threat (well she does but it pales in comparison)

her protection is nowhere near as good as other protective supports

the only ally targeted ability is her E.
RE’s effects could be replicated with two items in the game
no reliable peel despite being a mage support

The only reasons Karma was strong before was because her numbers where inflated, and shielding items where so powerful, but now that shielding been nerfed and Karma’s numbers where toned down, her lack of meaningful utility has returned to bite her.

WøOxerJul 16, 20181 votes

Mostly her shield nerfs I guess, and anyway she is predictable when she goes in when she does not.

saltranJul 16, 20181 votes

She was nerfed for being a good pick on pro play and the last shield nerfs and enchanter items nerfs were overkill

UomoAfideJul 16, 20181 votes

Centered around early game pressure. You either snowball with your adc or you become literally useless, shield was nerfed, W takes a lot of time to actually root a target, she suffers any kind of engage. Hopefully, there are few buff that should come out next patch, not really what she needs but it's a band-aid for now since Riot said they might give her a soft rework in the future.

CraktiteJul 16, 20181 votes

Her shield nerfed 1X times, same for her R+Shield. Her items : nerfed. One of her best Rune : "removed". Her W : proc only 2 times instead 3. League of mobility (and it will continue with Akali, next to her Yasuo will feel immobile and even fair to play against now).

UnknownTerritoryJul 16, 20181 votes

I tell you what turned Karma and supports into a complete garbage. Their shield duration - 2,5 sec. Also Heavy Nerfing of this item - item 3114

TargonJul 16, 20181 votes

A lot of things have weakened Karma this season including:

The removal of Ultimate Hat: Karma LOVED this rune and could easily fully stack it before level 6.
Nerfs to her E shield duration.
Nerfs to enchanter items.
Buffs to assassins and divers (Karma only has a measly 20.4 base armor and most assassins and divers can kill Karma before R>W completes).

According to OP.GG, Karma support generally builds support items over damage. As a result, her damage is usually only relevant in the early game. If Karma does build damage, it's a big risk because she's losing out on the utility items like item 3107 give, and her Q becomes increasingly more difficult to land and casting R>Q means she can't R>E in team fights (unless she has enough CDR and hits multiple targets with her R>Q).

HochelagaJul 16, 20181 votes

Interesting question! I main karma since season 2 and here's some partial explanations :

a LOT of indirect nerfs to Karma has weakened her power

item 1056 Lost the 50% mana regeneration. That previously would allow a Mid Karma to gain an additionnal 10 AP with item 3174

The rework of Frost queen's claim for Mid Karma. This item would literally allow a mid Karma to easily gain gold by harrassing and farm which would allow her to snowball.
The removal of Ultimate hat from the sorcery's rune tree. Meaning she just lost a precious 1-2 seconds reduction for her ultimate. Reducing her spams.
The reduction of all shields by enchanters (which is imo what made her suffer the most)
The reduction of shield value for all items with
The new meta of mages and other classes than marksmen on bot lane (she's losing synergies)
The mana regeneration update on mages. Strangely, every mages and enchanters have received a mana regeneration of flat mana compensation except Karma
This being said, I still think that Karma is in a playable state. She has a lot of unique traits that other support don't do as good as her.
She is technically the best support to clear waves
She still has the best shield for a team
Her cc, much to what other thinks is more reliable than most.
She excels in long teamfight due to all of her spells cooldown
She can actually defend and fight back on her own better than any other supports.

Pika FoxJul 16, 20181 votes

Her kit is awkward. She has amazing poke and shielding, sure, but her W is just so damn akward to use and doesnt mesh with either Q or E.

So, if you need to know, her winrate sucks (imo) because her W is garbage.

RaiokunJul 22, 20181 votes

You're judging a mage as a support champion I think.

She's always been good or bad in one or the other roles. In lane, her damage comes off only when the enemy makes a mistake not her own. Making it very akward to get damage off against a zed who can just Q minions. Before this patch she was the only champion that didn't have the mana changes from Dorans ring. So you would go oom at level 3 or two and be stuck that way until 5 but the enemy would had certainly punished and 1 v 2 you with jungler by then.

I think that's a prime example of Karma's solo lane being bad when her support is average. On the other hand, before 5.10 hit, her shield and mana regain weren't so great. She was to have 'adjustments on her solo lane' but they all had been solely focused on her duo lane since then. So when assassins came out as tanks adcs ruled then sucked then ruled again and lux built rylias for whatever reason, she was unable to use any of that. It's not the patch notes history she had that you should see. It's the several ones she didn't get that you should see. Mages were updated twice and she saw no work during it leaving her solo lane behind greatly. It shows in her support lane slightly, she can't really RW someone that well.

Nαthrαίchεαη ˆºˆSep 21, 20181 votes

Karma's shield is 1/3 of Janna's shield, her Q is way easier to dodge and does 1/2 the damage overall of Zyra and Brand (if it hits), her CC is nonexistant as you have to be 2 seconds within range of people that can kill you easily and its not even worth it as its a 1s root, her self-heal is more or less 25% and is super irrelevant since it heals you only half instantly, she lacks an ult, her passive is almost non-existent too, compared to other passives. Overall karma is a "Jack of all trades", she just does these trades significantly worse than other champions that specialize more in them. Overall, currently one of the worst champions in the game (8.18).