Top lane is just Rock Paper Scissors.

NY64·Jul 4, 2019·29 votes·13,579 views

I only play top lane once in a while but seeing everyone complain about top lane on boards I decided to play more top lane to see what the biggest issues were.

My conclusion is that it definitely feels like a few champions far outclass others and the only way to play top well is to counter pick them but if you pick first before the enemy they will just counter pick you. Yes it’s true that in each role there are counter picks but it feels like in top if the enemy counter picks you, you instantly lose lane so you have to counter pick them and the cycle goes on and on.

So in a nut shell top is just Rock Paper Scissors. This is all because the most op champions are also the most popular and riot just refuses to nerf them. Probably because they want to make more skins for them.

36 Comments

preternaturalJul 4, 201912 votes

and this is why i have to play irelia. if all my champions are scissors then i gotta pick the meanest pair of scissors i got every time.

NY64Jul 4, 20192 votes

Pretty scary Scissors when they can jump all the time.

preternaturalJul 4, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Pretty scary Scissors when they can jump all the time.

yeah but folks have to play against guns that can shoot all the time, or swords that can cut all the time, or riven just going full spaghetti on the keyboard, or the frog that won't stop eating. there is actually a rock that inhabits that dreaded space who can really ruin your day and he is working as intended. it's a fucked up situation as you know and i'm barely scratching the surface here.

FrozenTundra67Jul 6, 20191 votes

{quoted}

and this is why i have to play irelia. if all my champions are scissors then i gotta pick the meanest pair of scissors i got every time.

The meanest pair of scissors is Mrs. ScissorLegs (aka Camille). I'm disappointed that you didn't take this chance lmao

preternaturalJul 6, 20191 votes

{quoted}

The meanest pair of scissors is Mrs. ScissorLegs (aka Camille). I'm disappointed that you didn't take this chance lmao

but i don't play camille i don't just lie about my fav pair of scissors.

HommeGoujonJul 4, 20199 votes

That's why I play Shen , you don't need to win the lane to stay relevant. And if you're actually winning the lane, you're in for some extra fun :)

AkheteruJul 4, 20191 votes

{quoted}

That's why I play , you don't need to win the lane to stay relevant. And if you're actually winning the lane, you're in for some extra fun :)

I wish I had a dollar for every game I played Shen top, was perma-shoved AND hard camped and never got a gank from my jungler, and yet still turned a big fight around with my ult so we could get baron and run it down mid for the win while the other team was aced.

Spicy RiceJul 5, 20196 votes

There are easier ways to earn 5 dollars, just sayin

Ungrateful ThugJul 5, 20194 votes

The fact that threads like this unironically get upvoted shows the dismal quality of the boards.

D357R0Y3RJul 5, 20193 votes

have you seen the boards lately? there are like 5 threads like this with pure ignorance bandwagoning behind jfc

Ungrateful ThugJul 5, 20191 votes

{quoted}

have you seen the boards lately? there are like 5 threads like this with pure ignorance bandwagoning behind jfc

Oh, for sure. It's just another olive branch of the "game won't let me win because X is unbalanced" argument.

1 516 735 3508 is correct: almost any champion can be played / one tricked to climb. Good players (or at least people who end up climbing) find ways to win even in non-optimal matchups. And winning lane doesn't always mean brute forcing an enemy player every time they show up on screen. The game is so much more nuanced than that.

Luigi TortelliniJul 5, 20191 votes

Haha he's tilted. My experience with top lane is that you gotta be careful trying something new because you might be against someone with 8000 Jax games.

1 516 735 3508Jul 5, 20193 votes

No, one tricks can get into challenger with 80+ % winrates. At every level of solo queue up until near the top, people are so bad at spacing, damage foresight and have so many dubious elements in their decision making "Flow chart" that if you were playing properly (Not executing perfectly but giving an honest effort to do the right things) the matchup wouldn't even matter. If you have a problem getting "rock paper scissored" on, just learn the fundamentals. It's really not a big deal for you.

And that is one of the beautiful things about modern league.

This isn't DotA, solo queue "counter picks" are almost a meme until 800 lp challenger.

CarpeConundrumJul 5, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=1 516 735 3508,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AQcKP48q,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-07-05T00:25:33.435+0000)

No, one tricks can get into challenger with 80+ % winrates. At every level of solo queue up until near the top, people are so bad at spacing, damage foresight and have so many dubious elements in their decision making "Flow chart" that if you were playing properly (Not executing perfectly but giving an honest effort to do the right things) the matchup wouldn't even matter. If you have a problem getting "rock paper scissored" on, just learn the fundamentals. It's really not a big deal for you.

And that is one of the beautiful things about modern league.

This isn't DotA, solo queue "counter picks" are almost a meme until 800 lp challenger.

You're wrong. Play Renekton V Quinn at any rank. You're off your nut, actually... even mechanically bad players have their game handicapped for them by playing counterpicks, they make their lane easier.

1 516 735 3508Jul 5, 20191 votes

{quoted}

You're wrong. Play Renekton V Quinn at any rank. You're off your nut, actually... even mechanically bad players have their game handicapped for them by playing counterpicks, they make their lane easier.

Tell that to Smeb or Marin. Even I could play renekton into any quinn on this server and if I lose lane I will do so gracefully and be prepared to do my jobs going forward.

The EcdysiastJul 5, 20191 votes

Well, yeah. OP's conclusion doesn't actually match their defense or the problem they're presenting.

The real problem is that people can rely on a few broken champions to win what is supposed to be rock-paper-scissors, because you're supposed to be matched against someone of roughly equal skill.

But some champions simply win regardless of the matchup, because mastering them gives you way more of an advantage than it should. That's exactly why Irelia and Akali keep getting nerfed. Because they provide way too much once they're learned.

1 516 735 3508Jul 5, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AQcKP48q,comment-id=00050001,timestamp=2019-07-05T04:41:03.524+0000)

Well, yeah. OP's conclusion doesn't actually match their defense or the problem they're presenting.

The real problem is that people can rely on a few broken champions to win what is supposed to be rock-paper-scissors, because you're supposed to be matched against someone of roughly equal skill.

But some champions simply win regardless of the matchup, because mastering them gives you way more of an advantage than it should. That's exactly why Irelia and Akali keep getting nerfed. Because they provide way too much once they're learned.

The champions aren't broken, but what you're talking about is the fact that champions have different ranges. Even if a champion has a power level of 350 for example, and another has a power level of 200 in the same game , the same player will only realize a portion of that power, based on their own knowledge and skill. Perhaps the 350 champion is really hard to play and requires a lot of mechanical skill / cerebral decision making, and the 200 champion is more forgiving or easier, a player might only get a 40 out of the 350 champion but a 150 out of the 200 champion. There are things like this, where skill floors are different and the same champion requires a different approach (which the player might not even be aware of, in a matchup or composition or a meta).

Doesn't change the fact that raw mechanics and contemporary knowledge can take you to challenger with almost any champion in the game and in every role.

The bronze or the plat or the master league player shouldn't be too concerned about their problem matchups because at the end of the day, there are immediate hallmark issues that they can address, control and improve on.

In solo queue, all the way up the ladder, suboptimal picks like ekko top and tryndamere mid can be played all the way up the ladder. especially in regions that aren't KR or the chinese Ionian server.

Power CosmicJul 5, 20193 votes

Top lane often either doesn't matter or jungle decides it. Riot needs to balance the lane meta and map amongst other things. With how important they have tried to make laning phase, it seems counter intuitive that they would leave one on an island.

The thigh guyJul 4, 20192 votes

Welcome to adc for the past 5 years.

MaskedMadnessJul 5, 20192 votes

the worst part is when you one trick someone toplane but there are a few matchups you just dont win. I play rengar top and i have to legit ban darius every single game because darius beats rengar 100% of the time. im not even joking when i say i have a 0% winrate against darius as rengar because darius kit makes rengars pointless and you just lose no matter what runes or items you take. you can only sit under tower. and since i HAVE to ban darius for a chance to win, if the enemy picks a different counter i cant do much about it unless i want to deviate from my main

VankksterJul 5, 20192 votes

Well, you are playing a strong lane bully (Rumble is also a great counter vs Rengar Top) and lose to some other lane bullies, I still see nothing out of the ordinary? I'm pretty sure you can crush Irelia/Camille which are the OP tops, if we consider competitive. You can also win vs Renek if he has no ignite so he doesn't have kill pressure first few levels and you have good windows to bully even the croc. And you know Darius rarely 1v9s games. Your lane experience is not necessarily your whole game experience unless you sentence yourself to it by inting your lane harder than you should.

MaskedMadnessJul 5, 20191 votes

i do beat most matchups i face. And thats usually because people dont know Rengars jump range. but if you face darius it almost always goes the way that he just dives you. its hard to even farm against darius because normally you cant walk up unless you want to be hooked. so you cant farm easily andd have to sit under tower. darius now free farms and tanks up to the point he just dives you which is out of your control. even if you dont feed darius you now have to rely on your team to win their own lanes which most of the time does not happen. especially when darius then gets to roam mid and pretty much put any lane behind.

PxerkzaJul 5, 20192 votes

yes because top lane doesn't have a "pick to win champions"

i wonder why people dislike the possibility to out pick their opponents and gain lp due to smart champion choice picks...

or you just think that quinn and teemo counter nasus and nasus has no counter play then i can see your frustration

VankksterJul 5, 20192 votes

I'm pretty sure it has been like that for a while now. For two years? Ever since the Urgot rework I don't see how a Jax can actively contest lane early/mid, at almost any point considering the Urgot doesn't make major mistakes. I can also say botlane is the same since if u play any adc and have a melee support like Leona/Alistar/(even Naut) you will get poked down under turret by a Karma/Yumi/Lux etc, so it makes almost 0 sense to pick the melee supports in a 20-25 minute game when you already know you won't be playing a lot in the first 5-10 minutes. Now imagine pairing the melee support with an ADC that is initially weak early (not Cait/Draven/Ezreal) - you will not have a fun time unless you're getting camped for. Literally every lane is Rock/Paper/Scissors while adding up the jungle pressure into the mix. You can sometimes play safe top, but you will get dove bot unless you abandon turret, and it makes more sense for the enemy team to be diving bot than top considering the positives you can get out of it. I'm not saying this is every game, but at top you and your opponent are solely responsible for the state of the lane, while at bot you may not be able to shove back ever, if you play versus 2 players who are actively shoving. I'm not saying this happens every game, I'm just saying it CAN happen and can be abused a bit more bot than top, so Hashinshin should go to other lanes and see how it goes.

Jennifer420Jul 5, 20192 votes

malph ryze camille.

a rock, a guy with a book (paper) and literally scissor legs

ShleelpboyJul 4, 20191 votes

Rcck, paper, scissors, guns.

Teh SongJul 4, 20191 votes

Returning vet only been back a few days.

I keep hearing that the game (especially top) has become very counter heavy, but can't seem to find an up to date list of all these hard counters. Perhaps this thread will make me one?

I'd hate to make bad choices because I'm operating on memories from years ago. Like when I chose Poppy thinking my ult would make me invincible, or when I chose Ashe and was building a crit build because I didn't know she can't crit anymore.

njrk97Jul 5, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Teh Song,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AQcKP48q,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-07-04T23:02:54.365+0000)

Returning vet only been back a few days.

I keep hearing that the game (especially top) has become very counter heavy, but can't seem to find an up to date list of all these hard counters. Perhaps this thread will make me one?

I'd hate to make bad choices because I'm operating on memories from years ago. Like when I chose Poppy thinking my ult would make me invincible, or when I chose Ashe and was building a crit build because I didn't know she can't crit anymore.

Im hardly a expert since im fairly low ranked and there is alot of Counter pick stuff, main thing is if you don't play a super popular champ, your probably getting counterpicked, Riots Star child tops like Riven and Irelia are mostly safe from this, Renekton seems to be getting upgraded aswell, Tahm is now in top lane and literally everyone hates that. Its more so a case that alot of champs do what other champs do but better so you end up with matchups where you have no real benefit IE Kled vs Renekton, Your playing Kled your really not bringing much to the table over the Renekton.

Plus you have the standard stuff, if you go melee range with little mobility, you cant do much to the likes of Jayce,Quinn, Teemo and so on.

Its hard to lock down a major list because so much crap counters other crap, so good warning is generally if your a unpopular champ, your going to have hard counters, if your a newer or popular champ, you going to have less downtimes and be safer. Pretty much if your first pick, good luck, check the reddits to see if your opponents champ shuts you down. If your second pick, Check reddits and see if the champ you want to chose works against your opponents pick.

SucctionJul 5, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Teh Song,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AQcKP48q,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-07-04T23:02:54.365+0000)

Returning vet only been back a few days.

I keep hearing that the game (especially top) has become very counter heavy, but can't seem to find an up to date list of all these hard counters. Perhaps this thread will make me one?

I'd hate to make bad choices because I'm operating on memories from years ago. Like when I chose Poppy thinking my ult would make me invincible, or when I chose Ashe and was building a crit build because I didn't know she can't crit anymore.

You're still meant to build crit on Ashe lmao. Read her passive.

Teh SongJul 5, 20191 votes

{quoted}

You're still meant to build crit on Ashe lmao. Read her passive.

I did. It says she doesn't crit anymore, and instead amplifies her slow a little + ups her damage a little. That small boost is a such a low value though, that it's not worth building crit on her anymore. Where another adc who built 100% crit chance gets 200% or 225% damage on their attacks (depending on IE or lack thereof) Ashe would would only get 120%/125%.

It is to no doubt better to not bother with crit on her, and just amp up attack speed and damage. Which is of course why they reworked her this way; they wanted to increase variety in adc's by having one you pointedly don't want to built crit on.

SucctionJul 5, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Teh Song,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AQcKP48q,comment-id=000300010000,timestamp=2019-07-05T12:04:22.104+0000)

I did. It says she doesn't crit anymore, and instead amplifies her slow a little + ups her damage a little. That small boost is a such a low value though, that it's not worth building crit on her anymore. Where another adc who built 100% crit chance gets 200% or 225% damage on their attacks (depending on IE or lack thereof) Ashe would would only get 120%/125%.

It is to no doubt better to not bother with crit on her, and just amp up attack speed and damage. Which is of course why they reworked her this way; they wanted to increase variety in adc's by having one you pointedly don't want to built crit on.

No, lol. Her passive is a massive boost. It scales with crit chance. She mathematically gains even more damage from crit items than other adcs do.

Her passive just makes it work different, giving a % damage increase instead of rng.

I've never in my life seen somebody so confident and yet so wrong.

Teh SongJul 6, 20191 votes

{quoted}

No, lol. Her passive is a massive boost. It scales with crit chance. She mathematically gains even more damage from crit items than other adcs do.

Her passive just makes it work different, giving a % damage increase instead of rng.

I've never in my life seen somebody so confident and yet so wrong.

You misunderstood the math.

It says "basic attacks against them to deal 10% (100% (+ Infinity Edge item 25%) critical strike chance) AD Attack damage bonus physical damage" This means if you build 100% crit chance it adds 100% of the 10% giving you 20% total bonus damage. Whereas on a normal champion it just adds 100% giving 200%. Naturally those numbers are both higher with Edge.

Edit: Well, either that, or the people who write the wiki don't understand how math works and wrote the equation wrong. Things in parentesis are multiplied the by the thing next to them, so in this case 10% times crit chance built. If it works the way you're saying that means 2 things:

The wiki needs to be updated to reflect it
Riot is even dumber than I thought, because they made an adc not crit then made it still want crit chance, instead of increasing build variety by giving us an adc who doesn't want crit like they should have.

SucctionJul 6, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Teh Song,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AQcKP48q,comment-id=00030001000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-06T00:02:54.304+0000)

You misunderstood the math.

It says "basic attacks against them to deal 10% (100% (+ Infinity Edge item 25%) critical strike chance) AD Attack damage bonus physical damage" This means if you build 100% crit chance it adds 100% of the 10% giving you 20% total bonus damage. Whereas on a normal champion it just adds 100% giving 200%. Naturally those numbers are both higher with Edge.

Edit: Well, either that, or the people who write the wiki don't understand how math works and wrote the equation wrong. Things in parentesis are multiplied the by the thing next to them, so in this case 10% times crit chance built. If it works the way you're saying that means 2 things:

The wiki needs to be updated to reflect it

Riot is even dumber than I thought, because they made an adc not crit then made it still want crit chance, instead of increasing build variety by giving us an adc who doesn't want crit like they should have.

Never said it was a good idea, just pointing out that you are indeed meant to buy crit chance due to the neat scaling she gets. Pretty sure it's just a mistake on the wiki, it should say "10% + (100%...." Instead. Not sure why it doesn't.

BeatinWarDrumzJul 5, 20191 votes

This is kind of inevitable with melee champions. Power budget wise melee champions need to have a balance of engage potential (irelia,!riven, etc), and dueling power (juggernauts like Darius). Safe, tanky harass mages like ryze, Teemo, and vlad are also taken top lane, who beat the immobile juggernauts, who in turn beat the engagers who they can just beat to death, who in turn beat the mages who they can jump on. Tanks don’t fit within this structure well.

The KombinatorJul 5, 20191 votes

This is true for mid, and jungle too. If you pick a generic mid champ, then big chance to get counterpicked. Also some jungler counterpicks to enemy jung so they can beat them in their own jungle. Since RIOT increased damaged 999% the laners barely have any time to react, and against some junglers even reacting is irrevelant thanks to their 6*10^23 escape mechanics. Shaco for example can escape pretty much any time from any situation, if his free flash is ready. Or Zac just jump through half jungle. Or Udyr spams his form, and 1000% movement speed. Or Lee Sin with his 2 different jump.

ŠρìΚσJul 5, 20191 votes

its easy to solve toplane problems in my opinion ( i have more then 1700 games in toplane on all my accounts ) 1 - make the lane shorter ( the fact that its a very long lane make it a very good target fro junglers , and when you have an afk jungler you just suffer ) so the lane depend a lot on the jungler 2 - change the minion waves so perma freese is no longer possble ( like midlane ) ;i know that being able to freese is a skill but being able to perma freese is just unhealthy for the game , cause now in a loooot of match ups the CS diference between toplaners is just ridiculous , cause one side auto win trades and the other side have 0 sht to do vs the counter pick to a point where he cant even farm. 3 - punish junglers for camping top ( cause when you play an early bad champ not only you have to deal with your probably counter pick op laner but also with a dumbsht jungler who will camp you cause he get lot of XP and gold in your lane ) 4 - nerf those champs who have mega OP late game but also can easy win lane ( jax - vlad - ryze - tryndamer - illoi - tahm kench - kaiser and a lot ) 5 - rework all the very old champs who cant catch up anymore with the ammount of mobility and dammage on the game ( mundo - nasus - bear - ornn - shen - garen - kled and more )