Normalize Lissandra's MP/5 Already

Sugar Momma·Mar 15, 2016·93 votes·4,894 views

's passive is already pretty lackluster. Why does she pay for it by having the worst MP/5 of any champion?

doesn't have horrible HP/5 despite getting tons of HP regen from his passive

have normal base AD's and AD/lvl despite getting free bonus AD on their E passives.

have normal Armor/MR despite having large Armor/MR boosts on their W.

has avg Mana/Health base and scaling values despite his passive.

have normal MP/5 values despite having mana restoration in their kit.

This is not about making stronger. Her win rate has been consistently low after her dmg nerfs and buffing her MP/5 to normal values would not affect that much. It's simply bad design to give her a passive, then slash her base values to effectively make her passive not help her. It's already a bad passive to begin with.

84 Comments

SpoofghoulMar 15, 201635 votes

Sion Agrees

its bad to be among the lowest base hp and armor in game because you can potentially farm some health

Sugar MommaMar 15, 20166 votes

To be fair, Sion also does have a shield that scales with his max HP.

Though tbh I think the whole passive on his W is pretty gimmicky and he should just have better scaling values.

TurquoiseYoshiMar 15, 20165 votes

The problem with changing his W is that it is the only thing that connects him to old Sion. If you rework that spell, original Sion has technically been completely removed from the game.

da gloriousMar 15, 20162 votes

He practically already has been. The w is not the defining part of his old or new kit, and it's not like a lot of people love it. In fact people complain about it all the time(justifiably so but still). I really don't think people would miss it. Oh, and you don't have to remove the active. They're just talking about the passive.

KushDid420Mar 15, 20167 votes

Lol what the fuck are you taking about? The W Passive is what DEFINES Sion.

The problem is that with all the %Health champions meta right now

Also it's a very lackluster "Stacking" system compared to Nasus and Veigar, IMO they should just buff the amount of HP gained per unit since it takes forever for Sion to gain as much as 5k health compared to Nasus and Veigar who can reach their "Danger Farmed" Threshhold which is 800 ap and 350 stacks respectively, in around 30-35 minutes.

His Base stats are also pitifully low so that needs tweaks as well

Axis the DragonMar 15, 20167 votes

Technically what defines Sion is COWAAAAAAAAAARDS *runs away from fight *

Troll for TrumpMar 15, 20162 votes

i wish they would bring back Old Sion. AD Sion w/ Cannibalism was so fun.

and Ap sion I guess.

LordGeovanniMar 16, 20161 votes

ap sheilds that are stupid big and life steal that helped with surviveability with botrk old stacking on his e and ad atimas impaler boots depending on whats previalnt and Rabadons Zhonyas and DFG May it rest in peace i could delete 1 squishy as the fight started (it was the time of those pesky leblancs with my q and autos or my dfg q while soaking damage with w and proceeding to rip appart the enemy team with my 3k hp which was low back then for a tank but after repeating and farming i would do again and again until i had about 4.3 k hp ready to finish off the game they should bring Atama's Imaler back its not like it was toxic and its stats were horrible but it had synergy with sion that only i ever seemed to use or some other rare person used it on darius

Sugar MommaMar 16, 20161 votes

His shield that explodes to do dmg in an AoE is also from old Sion.

His passive is also very similar to his old ult (100% lifesteal, rampage) although arguably much less powerful.

CatastropMar 15, 201613 votes

Having 2.5 Mana Regen per second at level 15. So OP. On a more serious note, the day Riot normalizes Lissandra's mana regen, is the day I jump naked for joy in the mall.

AnratonMar 15, 20162 votes

a 3 second cd spamable aoe spell (with NO cdr) with 85 mana per use ... 1 cast free every few seconds ....

there needs to be a drawback ...

CatastropMar 15, 201613 votes

I know there needs to be a drawback, but the spell is already low range unless you hit something and doesn't hit that hard until you've got a decent amount of ap, at least let us have a BIT more mana regen. Regardless of her passive, no mage has any business with mana regen that depressing, Something like 20/per 5 would be an improvement.

AnratonMar 15, 20161 votes

you want to have mp reg like the other mages (tf, cassio, xerath) .. you also want to get the spell costs increased?

Sugar MommaMar 15, 20164 votes

Wouldn't be a horrible tradeoff IMO. Her passive would feel better if her spells cost more (but she regen'd mana better).

CatastropMar 15, 20169 votes

You literally just listed three champion who restore mana as examples. And if this ever became a change, the only spell cost that would need to be increased is her W, which really is quite low.

AnratonMar 15, 20162 votes

well it the mp5 would increase .. ALL spells would get increased mana costs ... something like +20 mana on al 10 sec cd spell

CatastropMar 15, 20165 votes

Not necessarily, like I said W(and maybe R) might get increased. Q and E are either gated by high mana costs already or a high CD with moderate mana cost. W is the only spells which really doesn't quite add up considering it's an instant AoE Root with decent base damage. It even recharges her passive the fastest, outside a teamfight ult that is. Not really sure about her ult though, as standard ult costs apply( Orianna Zyra cry in corner upon hearing this).

AbyssphereMar 15, 20162 votes

{quoted}

a 3 second cd spamable aoe spell (with NO cdr) with 85 mana per use ... 1 cast free every few seconds ....

there needs to be a drawback ...

Her mana costs are already huge. No other mage pays 85 mana for a basic poke skill, especially not one they're expected to use every couple of seconds. Her E is also massively expensive for a mage ability.

AnratonMar 15, 20162 votes

really? Xerath arcane pulse starts at 80 (ok 5 less) and goes up to 120 cd on lvl 5 .. 5 sec

Janna Howling Gale starts at 90 mana increasing to 150 (10 sec cd)

AbyssphereMar 15, 20164 votes

{quoted}

really? arcane pulse starts at 80 (ok 5 less) and goes up to 120 cd on lvl 5 .. 5 sec

Howling Gale starts at 90 mana increasing to 150 (10 sec cd)

Rank 1 Lissandra Q: 85 mana, 6 second cooldown. 14.17 mana per second. Xerath Q: 80 mana, 9 second cooldown. 8.89 mana per second. Janna Q: 90 mana, 14 second cooldown. 6.43 mana per second.

Rank 5 Lissandra Q: 85 mana, 3 second cooldown. 28.34 mana per second. Xerath Q: 120 mana, 5 second cooldown. 24 mana per second. Janna Q: 150 mana, 10 second cooldown. 15 mana per second.

Lissandra's Q is less mana efficient than both of those spells at all levels, even though Xerath has standard mana regen AND a mana management passive that is better than Lissandra's, while Janna has the second biggest mana pool in the game and support mana regen which is more than DOUBLE Lissandra's mana regen at level 1, and still comfortably higher at level 18.

Xerath's poke skill is more mana efficient than Lissandra's, his mana management passive is better than Lissandra's and he has normal mana regen. Tell me again why Lissandra has to have gutted regen?

Supreme Senpai69Mar 15, 20161 votes

Xerath is THE poke champ. Like, that's all he does. Lissandra is tanky. You can't compare them side-by-side like that

KING 5HARKMar 15, 20162 votes

Xerath has like 2 times the range on his poke skill, would be retarded if it had the same cost as lissandra q

AbyssphereMar 15, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Revan Senpai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BaERNqKe,comment-id=000000000001000000000001,timestamp=2016-03-15T17:22:41.938+0000)

Xerath is THE poke champ. Like, that's all he does. Lissandra is tanky. You can't compare them side-by-side like that

I'm not the one who brought the comparison up.

DairdrekMar 16, 20161 votes

Varus ahem, I beg to differ

I GANK LANESMar 16, 20162 votes

how in any way shape or form is lissandra tanky lol

Supreme Senpai69Mar 16, 20161 votes

Doesn't she build tanky because of her close range abilities and her ult? Ive never played her personally, but all Lissandras ive seen are tanky

I GANK LANESMar 16, 20163 votes

building defense on a champ doesn't make them inherently tanky, they're just building defensive items. it'd be the exact same thing if LB build tanky AP items

kaltenashesMar 15, 201610 votes

sometimes we see things like Jhin passive

others we're stuck with Sion Lissandra Zyra passive

Sugar MommaMar 16, 20161 votes

Jhin 's passive is so overloaded it takes a degree to understand it.

SaltyToplaneGoatMar 16, 20161 votes

Uhhh ya sure? "Pew-Pew-Pew-PEW- woosh gotta go fast and reload."

That summarized almost everything.

Mr Broken WingsMar 15, 20169 votes

Fact is, she is one of the champions on which youll get oom pretty fast on. If they want to buff her then thats a good start indeed.

qetzelMar 15, 20165 votes

I don't think Riot want to buff LIssandra. She is fairly strong at the moment. As such, I doubt you will get this change any time soon.

My opinions on the matter are that the passive is one of the few like it that doesn't reward playing around it very much. I would be okay with the low mana regen if the passive could be used to Lissandra's benefit. For example, clever positioning and use of minion waves and abilities lets Xerath get his mana restore by attacking an enemy champion without putting him in too risky a position. Lissandra doesn't really have this skill element to her passive, and as such, the best case use may be lower impact.

CasterGilgameshMar 15, 20164 votes

No she isnt strong ATM and her play rate isnt even high at only 4.53% http://champion.gg/champion/Lissandra

kebslolMar 17, 20161 votes

You are insane. Lissandra has never been fairly strong anytime in the last 3 years. She gets destroyed in lane and is at best a mid support.

Count ZubatMar 15, 20165 votes

Yeah, it's kinda stupid that Riot first gives a passive to champion that enhances part of their stats, but then nerf these stats. Lissandra could just have no passive and normal mregen/5 and it would be the same. Sion is also the victim of this. Before farming up, his base health is horrible for someone who is supposed to be a goddamn tank. Considering all the examples you gave, the way Sion and Lissandra are treated is just pure bullshit.

cystiumMar 15, 20165 votes

This issue has been brought up before during her release i believe. riots reply was basically them saying they intended her to have horrible mana regen and mana costs because otherwise her passive wouldn't feel powerful or impactfull.

What they should have done was design a meaningful and interesting passive instead of making it "meaningfull" in this manner.

AnratonMar 15, 20163 votes

You are complaining about the mp/5 regen.. but you don't compare the mana costs ... and the free spell in my oppinion is really helping

Sugar MommaMar 15, 201626 votes

Her mana costs are fairly high...85 on Q, even at rank 1, is really high, especially considering how spammy it is.

FalconPawwwwnchMar 15, 20163 votes

lmao

You do realize Lissandra is being picked left and right in competitive play right now right

CrownsyMar 15, 20166 votes

{quoted}

lmao

You do realize Lissandra is being picked left and right in competitive play right now right

for her ult in team fights. Pro play right now is all just passive farming and lane swaps till 15-20 minutes in, since everyone is terrified of giving up an early multi kill in the snow ball meta. That gives her enough time to get moro and get moving on a zonyas.

So you are right, Liss is a very good competitive pick right now, because her early to mid laning problems don't matter that much to pro teams. Any early pressure they give up mid, they'll happily cover for her to get that ult later, because it breaks open team fights.

For those of us who want to play her but not might have 4 other teammates willing to do a "carry the liss to team fights" comp, it kinda sucks to play her anywhere but top right now. There are just to many AP mages that are way more likely to snowball a game out of control, which is what everyone is looking for.

Sugar MommaMar 15, 20162 votes

^ Pretty much this. A buff to her MP/5 would mean almost nothing to pro play, but it would help her in solo queue, where she has been hovering at ~47% win rate since her Q dmg nerfs.

MagearnaMar 16, 20161 votes

Thank you for explaining it so thoroughly. I seriously hate when people bring up an idiotic remark about competitive play when they don't understand the reason for said pick in competitive play in the first place.

SecretlolzMar 16, 20161 votes

{quoted}

lmao

You do realize Lissandra is being picked left and right in competitive play right now right

You do realize 99.5% of the player base doesn't have games on the level of competitive teams right?

Hell, many of us play completely ALONE and we have no one to rely on every game

blfUvZ8YbuMar 15, 20162 votes

Lissandra's passive is good.

CrownsyMar 15, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akatsuki Deidara,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BaERNqKe,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-03-15T16:28:45.042+0000)

Lissandra's passive is good.

meh, it is and it isn't.

For Top lane liss, it's fine because you aren't in the short lane pushing waves.

In mid, it kinda sucks, because her mana costs are way to much early. Against anything with sustain, she's SOL.

that's the problem though. in one lane, it's quite nice, poke on top of poke.

NaramielMar 15, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sugar Momma,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BaERNqKe,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-03-15T12:52:04.734+0000)

has avg Mana/Health base and scaling values despite his passive.

Singed isn't a great example, since they nerf him down to ADC health and then have him use his passive to get back up to tanky health.

1000angrybeesMar 16, 20162 votes

Honestly if anyone argues that it'll buff her too much just to normalize her regen they're not very bright. other champs have better regen and just as high spell costs, it doesn't make sense just because she has that crap ass passive.

Its decent early game, and even then it's still half assed potential as a passive. Past that who cares, she might as well not even have one.