Mikaels is extremely unforgiving outside of high elo

TotalJerk·Jan 12, 2019·85 votes·18,674 views

Often by the time you actually use it, your ally is either basically fucked anyway or has already rode out most of the CC.
The range is small
It's a projectile with a travel time, meaning that you often have to cast it BEFORE the target is hit to meaningfully cleanse short CC.
The cooldown is pretty large
The target has to react to the fact that they were cleansed instantly
You have to be sure the target wont just get stunned again

Basically it requires a combination of immaculate prediction, timing, positioning, AND planning to use it optimally. Whenever I do get the perfect cleanse, a lot of the times the person I rescued doesn't even react fast enough to the fact that they were cleansed. It makes me wonder why even bother with this item when pretty much every other support item is significantly easier to use properly while also being more versatile. It's often just better to let my ADC get a QSS or let my midlaner run cleanse.

63 Comments

TyrancyJan 13, 201917 votes

No you are right man, dont listen to the other 3 that have responded already without even giving a chance to question and see your reasoning behind it being pretty irrelevant to most support items.

Eadat says: Bad people being bad at using it. Which OP already explained the reason bad people are bad at it. It requires too much precise timing and reaction to make it even useful of an active at all. OP is basically saying, "Why is such an active a thing at the current moment, because it feels very underpowered through all the coordination it needs to be useful."

Aametherar then says: "No one has to buy it." Then why is it an item? Why CAN we buy it? Saying nobody has to buy it, further proves his point of it being underpowered. Keeping your mind closed off about adjustments is not a healthy way for the game to progress. You need to have the incentive to really look beyond into another's idea, justify it based off facts, stats, and of course sound logic.

Last but not least, Super Cow Swag says: "Its passive is already decent enough that I can carry on ivern with it." Again I feel this is another thing where you can say, "Why does it have an active then?" What's the point of having such an interesting active and actually pretty dang useful if used correctly, if its only going to be strong in higher elo where communication is either present, or players just have a better natural reaction to it.

In conclusion, point being that the item should at least be looked at down the road as it only sees play in higher elo since its a waste of a supports gold in mid-low elo since players arent too aware of the item, and the significantly hard use of the item, with a lengthy cooldown to punish you.

BeersteinJan 13, 20195 votes

{quoted}

No you are right man, dont listen to the other 3 that have responded already without even giving a chance to question and see your reasoning behind it being pretty irrelevant to most support items.

Eadat says: Bad people being bad at using it. Which OP already explained the reason bad people are bad at it. It requires too much precise timing and reaction to make it even useful of an active at all. OP is basically saying, "Why is such an active a thing at the current moment, because it feels very underpowered through all the coordination it needs to be useful."

Aametherar then says: "No one has to buy it." Then why is it an item? Why CAN we buy it? Saying nobody has to buy it, further proves his point of it being underpowered. Keeping your mind closed off about adjustments is not a healthy way for the game to progress. You need to have the incentive to really look beyond into another's idea, justify it based off facts, stats, and of course sound logic.

Last but not least, Super Cow Swag says: "Its passive is already decent enough that I can carry on ivern with it." Again I feel this is another thing where you can say, "Why does it have an active then?" What's the point of having such an interesting active and actually pretty dang useful if used correctly, if its only going to be strong in higher elo where communication is either present, or players just have a better natural reaction to it.

In conclusion, point being that the item should at least be looked at down the road as it only sees play in higher elo since its a waste of a supports gold in mid-low elo since players arent too aware of the item, and the significantly hard use of the item, with a lengthy cooldown to punish you.

No, he said it's too weak at LOW tier play, if it's fine at high tier play then why mess with it? You're making crap up and taking it out of context.

If it's fine in high Elo and hard to use if you're not as good, you don't have to buy it.

If you instead ask for a buff, then clearly it'd become a problem in high elo just so low elo players can buy it when they otherwise don't have to.

[zombie-brand-mindblown]

Basically your logic is 100% selfish. You're saying ruin the game for others to add a new item to my game because I can't use it otherwise due to not having gotten good enough at it. You have plenty of other items you can buy.

TyrancyJan 13, 20193 votes

tl;dr Not trying to be negative man, just saying that OP is a bit correct in the fact that we have an item in the game that is only purchased a very small amount of times, because even if you are good at using it as a support(you could be a smurf supp, who knows) there isnt a point in buying it in lower elo since others players arent good with it. Why does the item exist then? I would just like to see it used in all ranks of play thats all. Its a nice active.

Yeah see this is where Im just not really gonna listen to you, cause both times you have typed a comment, you arent even reading the others comment at all. When did I say it needs a buff? WHEN? Point it out please. Cause no where in my comment did I say it needs a buff, it needs to be LOOKED AT, DOWN THE ROAD. Idc how long it takes, just as long as they give it a look and try to figure out a balance between both elos.

You literally begin your comment with a wrong statement lmfao, I never even said its strong in LOW elo, thats the significant problem, its such a versatile hard to use item with a lengthy cooldown to punish since LOW elo players arent used to the item and definitely have slower reactions to immediately being cleansed. Im saying this in the context that the support used the item correctly and hes good with it, but because its LOW elo your teammates arent good with it, so theres no purpose in buying it.

The item is highly strong in high elo, sure you can say dont touch it then, cause now if you do, its catering to low elo, but isnt that logic than saying by NOT touching it, Riot is catering to high elo? :^)

BeersteinJan 13, 20191 votes

{quoted}

tl;dr Not trying to be negative man, just saying that OP is a bit correct in the fact that we have an item in the game that is only purchased a very small amount of times, because even if you are good at using it as a support(you could be a smurf supp, who knows) there isnt a point in buying it in lower elo since others players arent good with it. Why does the item exist then? I would just like to see it used in all ranks of play thats all. Its a nice active.

Yeah see this is where Im just not really gonna listen to you, cause both times you have typed a comment, you arent even reading the others comment at all. When did I say it needs a buff? WHEN? Point it out please. Cause no where in my comment did I say it needs a buff, it needs to be LOOKED AT, DOWN THE ROAD. Idc how long it takes, just as long as they give it a look and try to figure out a balance between both elos.

You literally begin your comment with a wrong statement lmfao, I never even said its strong in LOW elo

I stopped reading here as that's the actual opposite of what I said, seems you're the one that can't read.

EedatJan 12, 201914 votes

I dont understand the point of thiis thread. You're more or less saying "people who are bad at using mikaels are bad at using mikaels"

TotalJerkJan 12, 201948 votes

The item is significantly harder to use, significantly more situational, and significantly less rewarding than every other support item outside of the very very top level of play to the point where 99% of players should never build it. You either use it perfectly or you waste it. At least when it gave a heal you got SOMETHING out of suboptimal usage.

EedatJan 13, 20195 votes

High impact items like Mikael's should be harder to use. Look at Duskblade. Thats what happens when high impact items are easy to use. It was too high impact for how easy it was to use so the damage got nerfed to the point where it's like half an auto in the mid/late game

TerchioJan 13, 20199 votes

Duskblade is still effective at all ELOs. Its impact was always high, and absurdly easy to use. Even now it's a great choice at all ELOs. Duskblade is not an overtuned Mikaels, and moreso forgives bad gameplay than boosts exceptional gameplay, making ward-evasion a thing of the past, and puts the vision pressure stronger on above-average warders against you. It's basically got the opposite game impact.

Edge of Night is far more comparable, and even that one is self-cast and easier to exploit its resources than Mikaels.

DracosKasuJan 13, 20195 votes

item 3147 is one of the most easy item to use, it doesnt need that much skill to activate.

item 3222 is way more similar to item 3814 and this item also doesnt see that much play even if the use on it is good.

Even item like item 3157 and item 3026 are item with a double-edge effect which can actually be useless if caught or the timing is bad.

Mc RatonJan 13, 20194 votes

{quoted}

The item is significantly harder to use, significantly more situational, and significantly less rewarding than every other support item outside of the very very top level of play to the point where 99% of players should never build it. You either use it perfectly or you waste it. At least when it gave a heal you got SOMETHING out of suboptimal usage.

It was more clear that someone used Mikeal on you also when it had a heal. The movement speed is 40% for 2 second_** IF YOU SUCCESSFULLY CLEANSED A DEBUF**_ , mean you can easily waste it if you don't time it correctly. It also give slow immunity for 2 second but it's very negligible with all the hard CC we have in this game nowadays.

BeersteinJan 12, 20198 votes

No one has to buy it, so I don't see an issue. If it were too powerful, that'd be a different story.

TotalJerkJan 12, 201934 votes

"Nobody has to use it" isn't really a good justification for things being underpowered in my opinion.

BeersteinJan 13, 20195 votes

{quoted}

"Nobody has to use it" isn't really a good justification for things being underpowered in my opinion.

You said outside top level play, so let them have their item that is in top level play? You don't have to use it, or can try to get better with it.

TerchioJan 13, 20192 votes

The only reason I support that justification is because I don't see a good way to improve its QoL on poor players. Dropping the CC reduction from 100% down to 50% would leave room for more passive improvements for low-level play, but take away from the strength the item is supposed to have. The heal was probably effective at making it bearable at lower levels, I'll give that much, but a faster projectile will probably get the item nerfed more for stronger viability at high ELO.

I see the problems with Mikael's as a whole, but it is serving its niche as intended, even if that's not impactful in low-level play. You almost have to take away from that niche in order to make room for it being viable in that manner.

I'd also agree to removing the speed boost on blocking CC. It's basically reward for landing a good shot, which automatically drops its value in low ELOs, something that should be avoided for such a niche item.

AirKingNeoJan 13, 20191 votes

You said it wasn't underpowered in high elo, so it isn't underpowered in the scheme of balance.

SpiritOfOdysseusJan 13, 20191 votes

I simply do not see the logic in this reasoning. Not saying youre wrong because I know that's how Riot thinks, but when an item/champion/etc is only viable for 1 out of a hundred thousand players than the item/champion/etc is underpowered for 99.999% of the playerbase.

Another reason for Riot to have separate balance teams for high-elo and everything else. It wouldn't be too hard to make the game change after you hit a certain point like Diamond I, since most people at that point keep their League know-how up to date or are handicapping themselves.

FNC 6ixGODJan 13, 20191 votes

How about a rework where its active passive is to shield a player like the edge of night active. You use mikaels on the target and it will stop the next stun or cc and mitigate the next incoming cc or stuns in the 2 secs after. Something like this.

Need Gold 4 TentJan 13, 20191 votes

{quoted}

"Nobody has to use it" isn't really a good justification for things being underpowered in my opinion.

Oh but it is. Coz then Riot eventually looks and says: Well... nobody's using this so let's just delete it.

RIP Poacher's Dirk/Revive/Leviathan/SotO.

Skins ProjectJan 13, 20196 votes

item 3056

LordGeovanniJan 14, 20191 votes

The Raptor cloak line is such a god send for split pushers but riot said Its for split pushers so lets make sure that a 1/3 of the item vale is in its non stackable passive while giving it horrible defensive stats in the first place

JustABotJan 13, 20196 votes

The healing and shielding portion of the item is amazing for some supports but the fact that its active makes it near useless because the amount of factors it takes to use it properly should be really looked into. To be honest I rather the active be removed all together and maybe they can add some armor resistance to it instead.

SirsirJan 13, 20195 votes

It should be instant. As fast paced as the game is supposed to be IDK why its still like that...

Warlord RhinarkJan 13, 20195 votes

Potential fixes for the item:

Change it from a projectile to an instant cast.
Increase the range to 750.
Let it Cleanse all CC, including Blind and Suppression.
Increase the movement speed buff to 50%.

PoskeJan 13, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BX9jF6OB,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2019-01-13T07:53:05.392+0000)

Potential fixes for the item:

Change it from a projectile to an instant cast.

Increase the range to 750.

Let it Cleanse all CC, including Blind and Suppression.

Increase the movement speed buff to 50%.

Still doesnt fix the item. Its an improvement but the item ll remain noobbait EDIT: thats even if you include all those changes

Warlord RhinarkJan 13, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Still doesnt fix the item. Its an improvement but the item ll remain noobbait EDIT: thats even if you include all those changes

I don't entirely believe so. You're saving your ADC an item slot by them not having to buy QSS, and you get a nice amount of Magic Resistance and Heal & Shield power,

Might need to bump the range all the way up to 1000 and increase the duration of the Movement Speed buff to 3 seconds though.

PoskeJan 13, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BX9jF6OB,comment-id=000d00000000,timestamp=2019-01-13T13:38:39.870+0000)

I don't entirely believe so. You're saving your ADC an item slot by them not having to buy QSS, and you get a nice amount of Magic Resistance and Heal & Shield power,

Yes on paper. The OP post is reallity, infact I could even list more problems with mikeals I saw this item used efficiently perhaps 3 times

And I have been high elo since season 2

Reaper SorakaJan 13, 20194 votes

I agree; I rarely ever buy it because I don't feel I can use the active fast enough to make a difference. Since it doesn't combine well with item 3174 (their passives cancel out which I feel makes it a waste of gold) I just go Athene's

PhhaseJan 13, 20194 votes

This is why I liked it better when Mikael's had a nice heal attached.

KFCeytronJan 13, 20192 votes

Yeah, the active is trash 99.99999% of the time. But the overall item itself is a reasonable buy sometimes, unlike some other items I could name (cough item 3056 cough).

Ionian VulpixJan 13, 20192 votes

Well, if your ally was hit by a CC, they'll probably die faster than you can save them anyway.

LarrietJan 13, 20192 votes

Every time someone mentions that Mikael's has a travel time, I'm shocked, every time. Even as someone who uses it, I always forget that. It really SHOULD be instant.

A Latte DeathsJan 13, 20191 votes

I'm not sure I agree. It's certainly not bought very often in low elo, but that's less because players are bad at utilizing it and more because low elo players don't realize how incredibly powerful the active effect is. It's in a good spot where it's at, especially since even if you mess up the active, it gives decent stats.

Meredith StoutJan 13, 20191 votes

Just to be clear, in low elo ppl can't put wards or use simple items as Bork properly. Don't mind that this item is in game for people who actually know how to play

KarfussJan 13, 20191 votes

{quoted}

The target has to react to the fact that they were cleansed instantly

This is by far the biggest problem with it.

Players typically resign themselves to the fact that they're going to die, so they'll stand still and accept death, unaware that they COULD do something. Outside of voice communication, you can't prompt them fast enough nor inform them that you've got your finger on it. All you can do, is ping the item and hope they get the gist.

I'd imagine it isn't even an ELO thing, and you'd still see the same issue regardless of what MMR you are. The active is only truly consistent in teams. Nevertheless, still get it, because a further 20% bonus to healing/shielding trumps anything else.

SpaghettiVaseJan 13, 20191 votes

I find it a really odd item, I never really have a reason to buy it as a support because

The person who gets cc'd will end up getting blown up no matter what
The support I'm playing already has similar skills that would work better to save them than just cleansing them

The item itself is just a huge ball of Mana regen, which also isn't that valuable as once you get a couple support items, you won't need the 250% Mana Regen or whatever it gives.

Mael JadeJan 13, 20191 votes

It grants 20% healing and shielding strength so thats a good reason to purchase it ^Not to mention the 5 active item support dream

PoskeJan 13, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Often by the time you actually use it, your ally is either basically fucked anyway or has already rode out most of the CC.

The range is small

It's a projectile with a travel time, meaning that you often have to cast it BEFORE the target is hit to meaningfully cleanse short CC.

The cooldown is pretty large

The target has to react to the fact that they were cleansed instantly

You have to be sure the target wont just get stunned again

Basically it requires a combination of immaculate prediction, timing, positioning, AND planning to use it optimally. Whenever I do get the perfect cleanse, a lot of the times the person I rescued doesn't even react fast enough to the fact that they were cleansed. It makes me wonder why even bother with this item when pretty much every other support item is significantly easier to use properly while also being more versatile. It's often just better to let my ADC get a QSS or let my midlaner run cleanse.

This item noob baits even pro / high elo players Its gold inefficient

rtbf225618241Jan 13, 20191 votes

It's a projectile with a travel time, meaning that you often have to cast it BEFORE the target is hit to meaningfully cleanse short CC.

Uh, what? Pretty sure Mikael's cleanses instantly. I've used it countless times.

ZaneShadowJan 13, 20191 votes

Well, low elo support main here:

I think the item is okay. The 20% heal/shield is amazing. Plus the active let’s me show off that I’m a support main, not an auto filled. It’s one of the most skill expressive items in the game, and with support being a slightly easier position, I enjoy the active. It lets me show off.

Sometimes my ADC dies anyway, but that’s on them. I always say “you can’t save someone from stupidity”. That’s a consequence of being a low elo support. Sometimes your adc is awesome, othertimes they are terrible.

Is the item perfect? No. But I think losing its active as an option would be removing a valuable skill check from the position.

Just my opinion though.

ArammusJan 13, 20191 votes

if mikaels is a projectile can yasuo windwall it?

hoshizukuJan 13, 20191 votes

It'd be great if some of its heal/shield power was tuned down a bit in order to make the active cooldown a bit shorter, and if the cleansing effect had a very obvious visual to go along with it so that the person knows they've been cleansed. My issue with it always comes from what you said: the person who got cleansed doesn't realize it because there's no obvious indication that it was used, so they don't react and therefore the active was wasted.

SpiritOfOdysseusJan 13, 20191 votes

Strange you say its only viable in high-elo… I've been unranked every single season in League and have used Mikaels many times(then again my skill level is higher than 95% of unranked). It's highly useful against stun-bots and when Victory depends on a single player. I'll build it on some tanks, midlaners, and obviously supports but Its very situational. Its nearly useless on ADCs unless you cleanse minor CC, but often if an ADC is hard cc'd they're dead regardless in a teamfight. And if I have to use it on them outside of a teamfight theyre often too bad to justify wasting CD on. Usually the high impact oriented allies are worth the proc such as most front lines, backline burst mages, and assassins.

I'll often use it against:

Lux Ahri Veigar Anivia Jax Galio Maokai etc

VonyaloJan 13, 20191 votes

With everything getting blown up in 0.5 second... no wonder this item is bad. But I can't see how you can make it viable.

Breezy BoyyJan 13, 20191 votes

I'd honestly probably buy it more often if it didn't have the active. The active is so useless at low elo, I feel like I'm wasting space when I buy it. I literally only ever take it on Soraka for the added heal and shield power.

Linna ExcelJan 13, 20191 votes

What if it was a item 3157 that targets allies instead? It cleanses them and it puts them in stasis for a second or two.

The23rdGamerJan 14, 20191 votes

I wouldn't mind a clearer method to show both the person who cleansed their ally and the ally being cleansed that they had, indeed, been cleansed. Perhaps a little flash around the edges of the screen of the person being cleansed or something could be a way to do this?

I'm not sure exactly how to do it without making it too flashy, but it would be a nice QoL update because this is a very real and frustrating issue:

5.The target has to react to the fact that they were cleansed instantly

As a side note, at least you get a decent buff to your healing if you take the item. I'll occasionally grab it on Sona or something alongside Ardent and Redemption if I'm looking for massive heals and shields.

PaladinNOJan 14, 20191 votes

As a Support main and ARAM OTP, I get it frequently against a CC heavy team and / or playing a healing champion, mostly for the increased healing stat. The added mana regeneration and the actual cleasing active is just a bonus.

CheiniJan 14, 20191 votes

well.. tbh, the idea of the item itself is for higher elo, kinda - though, in the lowest divs it can work as well because of how the t/fs go: to cleanse a cc.. you must think well which one is most important for the enemy team (liss R ie), to react quickly etc - after all, we all know what happens when yi goes yolo 12 kills without a way to stop him right?..

much like the ohmwrecker: in bronze elo, you would break the turrets before you even dive but.. should you really? :p

still though.. now the projectile travel time is baaaaad. even worse.. hasaki.. :d

Sire HippingtonJan 14, 20191 votes

TBH, i'm fine with it beeing so inconvinient. Whenever Mikaels can be easily used, it becomes mandatory on every support and wraps the support meta around it, as a free cleanse for the carry is a massive thing. Any sort off buff that makes it less usless in low elo can easily break it in high elo. Though maybe not that much these days as carries tend to simply die rather than getting CCed, but i sure hope that eventually changes duering the Season, if not i won't care anway as lol won't be installed any longer....