Imagine if a mage dealt 100% more damage on a enemy

Moonfall Saber·Oct 23, 2017·17 votes·870 views

People would lose their minds. Meanwhile adcs crit once with a static shiv and deal 600 damage easy while a lux e (for example) deals the same or less damage than that.

36 Comments

nm1010Oct 23, 201715 votes

This isn't really a viable comparison.

DrCyanideOct 23, 20174 votes

How so? Shiv gives a "base damage", Auto Attacks have 100% scaling to the reduced scaling of spells.

nm1010Oct 23, 201713 votes

Base damages? Ranges? The total sum of the champion's kit? Anivia and Karthus both have 'crits' in their kit as well and no one cares, it is a poor post that'll be circlejerked by people upset by the adc meta.

341123545652Oct 23, 20172 votes

and then on the other end of the extreme , we have adc apologists like you who are a major contributing factor to the serious problems going on in league. If the tables were turned, then YOU would be the ones circle jerking about how assasins need their burst delayed , ziggs shouldnt be allowed in bot lane adc in 2017 adc in 2017 adc in 2017

nm1010Oct 23, 20174 votes

You know I am a 5 year assassin/mage player right? If anything is out of line right now it is all of the tools to protect the adcs. Adc's doing damage is not a new concept, them being so damn hard to kill thanks to so many new items and shifts in power is what makes them so integral to the current meta.

Painted CeltOct 23, 20171 votes

It might be worth considering leaving shield/peel power-creep, and to scale back marksmen damage outputs, and I'll explain my reasoning. Marksmen becoming harder to 1-shot when they are grouped up with tanks/supports is a healthy change in my opinion, that did add counter-play, but their damage output and lifesteal (which is directly tied to their damage) is still balanced around a time when they needed to kill or be killed within 1-2 seconds. If marksmen damage output was reduced, then assassins and bruisers would have longer to try to break through their shields/peel or to at least retreat without dying so that they can make a second assassination/dive attempt after their rotation is back up. I think longer fights allow more skill expression and are more fun, so I think that whatever the reason marksmen are overtuned at the moment, reducing their damage output to fit in the modern game is definitely worth trying. Even though marksmen damage output and lifestealing isn't new, it isn't necessarily healthy in its current state.

Of course, their could be balance repercussions to marksmen damage outputs to be more inline with other roles, beyond making things more fair to assassins. The most obvious side-effect is that tanks and juggernauts would become harder to kill. I think that would be fine to some extent, as juggernauts probably are too weak compared to marksmen right now anyways. Also, there will always need to be at least a couple damage dealers on a team to allow objectives to be taken in a reasonable amount of time, so I highly doubt that marksmen would become nonviable. More juggernauts will help keep full-tanks under control and will help automatically reassert a balanced meta. However, I think that Riot should add more DPS mage itemization (and clearly separate it from burst AP itemization), which would also keep tanks and juggernauts under control. Essentially, the available damage in the game could be redistributed from marksmen to better AP DPS itemization being available (to counterbuild tanky teams) and to an increased viability of juggernauts, so that damage wouldn't decrease too much but it wouldn't be entirely focused on marksmen which would also encourage tanks/supports to more equally protect their other damage sources (mages, assassins, juggernauts). I think that would be a healthier meta.

Spank the FoxOct 23, 20172 votes

Why are you so triggered?

CowseedOct 23, 20171 votes

I can see how salty you are from your name. You can be anrgy about it but don't let that be the driving force behind all your reasoning.

DrCyanideOct 23, 20171 votes

As I said, Shiv effectively adds a base damage. Ranges depend on the spells, and is a trade off with being able to miss vs unmissable autos.

Crits in kits, both AP and AD kits, is the healthiest type of Crit in the game because it depends on the player meeting a condition to get the bonus damage. That's why no one complains about it.

People have been upset by the state of Crit for years. It may be more vocal when ADC's are strong, but it's always there. Riot tries to justify it as being necessary to break the stat check of ADC's while ignoring that Abilities break the stat check for every other class in the game. If Marksmen need to rely on RNG to not keep falling behind their lane opponent, then Riot needs to reevaluate Marksmen abilities because they're not where they should be.

TheHappyReaperzOct 23, 20171 votes

To be fair, the crits Anivia and Karthus have aren't comparable to an ADC's crits. ADC's crit for 250% while Karthus and Anivia crits are increased by 100%.

nm1010Oct 23, 20171 votes

They also have access to them at level 1-2. Obviously they aren't 1-1 comparisons, but the idea is there for the point OP is trying to make.

Velzard of KozOct 23, 20173 votes

I mean double of 250 is less than double of 200 + 200. That is without Shiv, true. But that is an item not class thing.

PennsOct 23, 20175 votes

Kinda weird how adcs do more damage with crits than most mages/assassins with spells starting at 2 items..
Shouldnt they have dps vs tanks instead of killing squishies with 3 crits? lul

The Yetii RiderOct 23, 20176 votes

That is kinda weird. Almost like..it's not true! Gasp!

Mages deal damage to multiple targets. Marksmen deal damage to single targets. That's why it's not an apt comparison, we've been over this several times in the last few months. I can drop Summon: Tibbers on 3 people and deal over 1000 damage easily in three seconds because I'm dealing a medium amount of damage to several targets. Marksmen cannot do this. Runaan's Hurricane only deals about 200ish damage to other targets at full build, while Stattik Shiv's AOE proc is laughable compared to any mage ability. But you don't compare it to mage abilities, you only compare it to Luden's Echo's AOE, which is idiotic. Luden's Echo's AOE is so small because it is in ADDITION to the damage that you naturally get from Pillar of Flame, or Lucent Singularity, or Scatter the Weak, or Dark Matter, or Death Ray, or any of these other enormous AOE damage spells that mages have access to.

PennsOct 23, 20172 votes

1000 damage in three seconds

marksmen cannot do this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLikP6BDH5w

The Yetii RiderOct 23, 20172 votes

{quoted}

.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLikP6BDH5w

Fairly sure. Especially in the mid game when a mage is level 9 and has full ranks in their AOE ability and one item, when the marksman has just an Infinity Edge.

PennsOct 23, 20171 votes

starting at 2 items

tho.
180 AP Fizz W, which is one of the highest damaging spells in the game = bit less than 400 damage. Meanwhile 2 item, so 160 AD crit = 400 damage topkek

The Yetii RiderOct 23, 20171 votes

{quoted}

tho.
180 AP W, which is one of the highest damaging spells in the game = bit less than 400 damage. Meanwhile 2 item, so 160 AD crit = 400 damage topkek

I said nothing about assassins in my post. I am talking about mages. Mages who cast their AOE spells, hit many targets and deal tons of damage. Even with Fizz as an example, Fizz can hit Chum the Waters on three targets and then Playful/Trickster into those three targets and slam them for around 900 damage total.

NyarlathοtepOct 23, 2017

Marksmen deal damage to single targets.

Nope false. Marksmen are designed to kill everything within their range. Either through single targeting ( vayne, tris) or through multi targeting ( kog, jinx, twitch ).

I can drop Summon: Tibbers on 3 people and deal over 1000 damage easily in three seconds because I'm dealing a medium amount of damage to several targets

I hope you mean you deal over 1000 dmg through your whole kit, because tibbers alone aint gonna deal that much.

Runaan's Hurricane only deals about 200ish damage to other targets at full build

And thats why the become so good at draintanking ( yes i know that shields are a reason too they drain tank so much ). By hitting multiple targets they amplify their lifesteal by a lot.

Stattik Shiv's AOE proc is laughable compared to any mage ability. But you don't compare it to mage abilities, you only compare it to Luden's Echo's AOE, which is idiotic

Here's the problem with shiv. Against adc's unless the adc is corki you buy armour. Now shiv deals magic dmg, which is stupid. Yes the dmg is low but its still there to annoy the shit out of you.

enormous AOE damage spells

And thats exactly why the lose a very big portion of reliability. And as always in competitive games reliability > everything else.

DuskDaUmbreonOct 23, 20175 votes

Now imagine if mages only did about a third as much as they do already, and it could be randomly doubled, but had far lower cooldowns. And now you have it accurate.

It's not "Doubled 100% of the time". It's not even just simply doubling it. It's "Have far less of a stat to multiply, but have a chance to double it".

Moonfall SaberOct 23, 20172 votes

That's not accurate at all. Mages have skill shots and long cooldown. If a lux ult hits for 600 damage then why the fuck am I getting hit by an auto attack that deals 900 with a shiv

DuskDaUmbreonOct 23, 20171 votes

It is. Because it's not simply just "doubling" damage randomly. Marksmen inherently hit for less.

Let's not factor in crit at all. Just the AD and AS. Assuming a standard 6-item build, they have item 3031 item 3072 and item 3036 for AD, for 70+80+50, or 200 AD. 275 AD, after base.

That's barely any damage at all. Far less than a mage has. And armor is more common than MR. But that's beside the point. Point is that a mage will do more than a marksman per-hit. And the bigger point is that Marksmen sacrifice AD for crit in nearly every circumstance. It's not simply doubling, it's reducing then doubling.

So. You want mages with crit? They'll not only have to itemize for it, but they'll need to have reduced values so that it remains in line.

Zed geniusOct 23, 20174 votes

a double damage syndra ult would be more balanced than a 3 item twitch auto attack with ult

FireDrizzleOct 23, 20173 votes

Draven Riot wtf, I'm playing a lategame carry in the lategame! Why does a mage with an item on me get to delete me from the game with no counterplay? Adk 2k17

z63XnLCMwXOct 23, 20173 votes

Oh yes please. I want to be able to S2 AP nid spears again.

RebonackOct 23, 20172 votes

The game had spellcrit (briefly) a looooong time ago.

It resulted in high variance problems. As in, getting crit by something that does 200ish damage on every other use isn't that horrible. Getting crit by something that does 1000ish damage a quarter of the time IS a pretty big deal.

That said, I don't think Marksmen should be able to itemize into burst and waveclear (energize and hurricane). If they want (or need) those tools, they should be accessed through the champ they pick. Adding those tools to everyone just homogenizes the role.

Stars ShaperOct 23, 20171 votes

That sounds like a nice new passive for Xerath .

Hayaishi2Oct 23, 20171 votes

As if people weren't losing their minds with the meta already.

Slythrin UmbreonOct 23, 20171 votes

Karthus To be fair, He's not wrong... People do lose their minds when he hits a single target q and deals double damage

Need Gold 4 TentOct 23, 20171 votes

Chogath I could 1 shot squishies then, now I 1 shot tanks.

zero356Oct 23, 20171 votes

150%* item 3031

RookPusherOct 23, 20171 votes

Veigar

ManWithNoBeardOct 23, 20171 votes

Yes of course, Imagine someone like Lux or Ziggs killing your entire team with one Ult. Real fun.

SteelMankindOct 23, 20171 votes

Most mage abilities (esp ones like Lux E) are a dozen times more convienient than autos.

They have much longer range, to the extent that the absolute shortest range mage abilities, like Vlad Q or Cass E, are compareable to normal ADC auto range. They dont (in general) have to stop moving as long. They are often AoE. They almost always have some additional effect other than just damage.