Lee Sin popularity was getting a bit under 20% during season 5...

Yfrappefort·Sep 22, 2015·67 votes·2,578 views

...so we buffed him to make sure he stay above it and permanently stay the most played jungler ever.

Rito.

54 Comments

KeevalroySep 22, 201515 votes

Remove ward hopping.

Aaaand we're done.

Chuck CharlesSep 22, 201513 votes

never understand the hate on lee sin. I don't hate going against a Lee Sin. Sure he'll dump on your face early game. and then his team will not be able to close out the game in 25 minutes and you come back and stomp his team because he has all the kills and is now far less useful.

Not only that, most people who play lee sin who aren't mains of him are terrible with him. I dread having a lee sin on my team because he either never ganks or ganks horribly and doesn't accomplish anything early game. And when you see a lee sin do nothing early game, then you know your team is probably going to lose unless someone carries very hard.

bad manner kidSep 22, 201529 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chuck Charles,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BVWgwqcE,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-09-22T22:46:08.443+0000)

never understand the hate on lee sin.

targets you, boots you into enemy team, blinks away like it never happened

There are infinitely annoying things Lee Sin does outside of his obnoxious bursty early game. Not being able to catch him/escape from him is just the cherry on top.

LICENSED HOOKERSep 23, 201511 votes

not to mention hes already a fast a f character but now lets add item 3117 and item 2049 ..

Have fun~

Rito

iainB85Sep 23, 20156 votes

item 2049 http://static.lolskill.net/img/abilities/32/LeeSin_W1.png http://static.lolskill.net/img/abilities/32/LeeSin_R.png

LeeSin Out played noob.

Rammus OK

bad manner kidSep 23, 20151 votes

{quoted}

http://static.lolskill.net/img/abilities/32/LeeSin_W1.png http://static.lolskill.net/img/abilities/32/LeeSin_R.png

Out played noob.

OK

LeeSin http://static.lolskill.net/img/abilities/64/LeeSin_W2.png http://static.lolskill.net/img/abilities/64/LeeSin_E1.png http://static.lolskill.net/img/abilities/64/LeeSin_Q1.png http://static.lolskill.net/img/abilities/64/LeeSin_R.png summoner 11 http://static.lolskill.net/img/abilities/64/LeeSin_Q2.png

REKT

BudupopsSep 24, 20151 votes

you have to remember that only about 10% of lee sin can ward hop correctly, and even less can insec

SaiannaSep 23, 201524 votes

Once, long time ago when Lee was relativly new I had one of the worst games ever.

Not because I was super bad, nor had I "worse day".. I was playing GP roaming here'n'there. Few times I found enemy Lee in their jungle and every single time he started to lose in 1v1 he'd kick me with his R away.

There was no counter meassurements. He just disengaged and I had no way to chase him. That was the game that started my personal hate towards Lee.

Not only he's allowed to have insane damage without building almost no damage items, but he also is blessed with life steal/spellvamp/shield/short CD R/Dash/%HP damagee.. And 1 thing that made me the most angry of all:

No matter how popular he was He never recieved meaningful nerf. All other champions, even weak ones were further nerfed. But. Not. Lee. FKing. Grass. Hopper. And now? He even received a buff. And not some small one.

For example Tristana. She has the most similar ultimate to Lees. Yet: It deals less damage Its damage is magical (Ap trist is dead. building her AP = noobtrap set by Riot) has longer cooldown Doesn't stun Works against more than 1 champion if they are very close to main target Projectile is slow (you can spell shield it or Zhyonna) Overall os slightly better version of Vaynes condemn with 4x longer CD.

But hey, Lee got buffed.. yay?

Gosh I hate him so much.

Only Play DariusSep 23, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Few times I found enemy Lee in their jungle and every single time he started to lose in 1v1 he'd kick me with his R away.

This is more of a problem with the people who play Lee Sin than it is with the champ itself. They are prone to making shitty decisions so kick you away and run away each time to bail themselves out. They always have the ultimate up because they are usually terrible in general and rarely are able to get in a position for them to actually use it the way it was meant to be used (aka not using it to pussy out of every single fight).

RetillinSep 23, 20153 votes

I guess I'm a little confused by what you mean.

Are you saying bad Lee Sins hold onto their ult to disengage and good Lee Sins never have it up because they use it to get kills?

**_IF _**this is what you are saying, doesn't it show a fundamental flaw with him? Doesn't it show a higher skill floor than it should?

NineTailedMysticSep 23, 20151 votes

I think he's saying bad Lees always ult to save themselves, but they aren't punished for it because next time you find them, it's back up anyways, and they never use it to kick someone into their team for the knockup.

PiVoRxSep 23, 201511 votes

Pretty much this, you can shit on Lee Sin but he just kicks and ward jump through wall. Nothing you can do to him invading your side of the map, and if he caughts you tanking a monster, you are dead.

DessemSep 23, 20152 votes

Overall os slightly better version of Vaynes condemn with 4x longer CD.

But Vayne's condemn can stun, Tristana's ult can't.

Tristana's ult does 300/400/500 base damage at 550 + Trist Passive range for 100 Mana every 100/85/70 seconds. Vayne's condemn does 45 / 80 / 115 / 150 / 185 (90 / 160 / 230 / 300 / 370 ) base damage at 550 range for 90 Mana every 20 / 12 seconds.

DPS-wise, Vayne's Condemn wins hands down. Even if you don't hit the wall, it should do about two times as much damage as Tristana's ult at maximum level. Hitting the wall doubles Vayne's damage and attaches a stun. Tristana's ult does more burst damage initially, but let's say Vayne has 150 AD. 370 + 150 at maximum rank, managing to knock the target into the wall results in 520 damage; slightly more than Tristana's ult (at 0 AP).

So in the right conditions, Vayne's Condemn does more damage than Tristana's ult and will have a stun attached to it as well. Note that Vayne will have more than 150 AD usually, so I'd challenge your statement.

I think Vayne's Condemn is hands down a better version of Tristana's ult, except when you need to knock back multiple people in very close proximity, OR there are no walls near enough to knock them into. That's when Tristana's ult wins.

EDIT: Of course, there is some argument for physical vs magical damage, and Tristana has a larger knockback range. I neglected those two, but they make it a bit more even. Again, though, Vayne will likely surpass 150 AD, and Last Whisper might mean the difference isn't all that great.

SaiannaSep 23, 20151 votes

I said "better" because Trist ult pushes enemy bit farther than condem. It doesn't stun, but it's job is to send enemies flying as far as possible.

But rest of stuff as damage/cd etc then Vayne wins, yea :)

DessemSep 23, 20151 votes

Yeah, for knockback alone Trist wins by a lot. Gotta win somewhere.

ahferroin7Sep 23, 20151 votes

Vayne's never been directly nerfed either...

ALso, it's really not an issue if you have decent CC, he actually kind of counters GP because he has better engage and disengage, even though GP can deal more damage.

SaiannaSep 23, 20154 votes

That Lee couldn't counter shit. He just pressed R. That's all.

If that was Janna who'd push me away, then I'd be grumpy, but in the end I'd call it worth it. She has longer CD, Heal and push. All wasted to disengage me. But Lee? His R cooldown is just slightly higher than normal ability..

Aych PiiSep 23, 20152 votes

Comparing one champion's ultimate to anothers is never a good idea. Tristana gets a lot more value from a self-peel ult because of her niche as an ADC. She can rarely duel melees at close range, and her ult helps her keep people at range that try to dive her. It also services her identity as an objective dominating ADC, allowing her to push people off of towers or epic monsters she's sieging long enough for her to secure the objective and escape with W.

Lee Sin's ult is an aggressive disrupting and dueling tool that allows him to force enemies out of position. He'll use it for self-peel if he has too, but typically he can use Q after the ult to re-engage and kill you through burst damage, especially early game. It has the advantages it does over tristana's ultimate because of simple differences in power budget, as well as the melee range of the ability and the fact that Lee Sin can't make use of the knockback in the same way Tristana does.

SaiannaSep 23, 20151 votes

Comparing one champion's ultimate to anothers is never a good idea.

Yes if we were to compare totally different ultimates like.. Sivirs and Swains. Both do totally different things.

But imo Lee and Trist have pretty much the same thing, while 1 being far superior & still getting buffs.

Yeah, Trist can use it to self peel (that deals close to no damage). But hey, Lee can do it the same thing against tanks. And it deals decent damage And he's rewarded for doing so with %HP.

Aych PiiSep 23, 20152 votes

You're missing the point. Tristana's ultimate is much better for her than it looks on paper because of synergy with her kit and playstyle, and two ultimates will never share the same power budget anyways because of the rest of the champion's kit. I think most people would agree with me if I told you that Tristana is a much stronger pick than Lee Sin in the current meta.

Besides, Lee Sin wants to kick squishies. The buff was specifically targeted towards making him more willing to kick tanks, as it makes his playmaking ability less dependent on the mechanical skill required to catch out and insec a squishy, while still leaving the insec as his ideal fantasy. It lowers the skillcap of the champion without massively increasing his overall power, except in situations where teams clump together behind the tank, which people should try to remember not to do against Lee.

SaiannaSep 23, 20151 votes

It is still unneeded buff. There are lots of other champions who could benefit from some mechanics like %HP while focusing champions like tanks. But that won't happen because Lee is Riots posterboy.

PiVoRxSep 23, 201510 votes

Everything Lee Sin has to do late game is to use his R on a random enemy, and if its good R, like one that knockups multiple champions its game changer.

Stop saying like he fall off late pls.

Chuck CharlesSep 23, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Everything Lee Sin has to do late game is to use his R on a random enemy, and if its good R, like one that knockups multiple champions its game changer.

Stop saying like he fall off late pls.

he does fall off, just because he isn't "useless" doesn't mean he doesn't fall off. Yeah, his ultimate can be pretty great late game, but its not like some otherworldly ult at that point. not to mention the mechanical prowess it takes to actually insec. I mean, nowadays people know its coming and counter it a lot. A good lee can take over and end the game fast, but your chances of winning rise dramatically late game.

hhaavviikkSep 23, 20158 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chuck Charles,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BVWgwqcE,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-09-22T22:46:08.443+0000)

never understand the hate on lee sin. I don't hate going against a Lee Sin. Sure he'll dump on your face early game. and then his team will not be able to close out the game in 25 minutes and you come back and stomp his team because he has all the kills and is now far less useful.

Not only that, most people who play lee sin who aren't mains of him are terrible with him. I dread having a lee sin on my team because he either never ganks or ganks horribly and doesn't accomplish anything early game. And when you see a lee sin do nothing early game, then you know your team is probably going to lose unless someone carries very hard.

because there are other champions never used and they never get a thing but lee sin doesn't get used for a couple of weeks and instantly gets buffed, obvious favouritism is obvious

BeMyFriendPleaseSep 23, 201511 votes

I like how his ultimate has more than any other ultimate ingame. All it needs is true damage to complete the perfection

CarrySep 22, 20155 votes

Lee Sin had one of the lowest winrates for all of Season 5... so we buffed him... weird.

SaiannaSep 23, 20158 votes

Overall?

Or on specific tier?

Because if it's overall winrate then no wonder when 95% of Lee players are silver & below. You can't expect them to play like master-diamonds... They'll feed trying to copy diamonds and lower his winrate by alot...

Silver FluffenbuSep 23, 20151 votes

yes, better to cater to the 5% and not buff Lee.

SaiannaSep 23, 20153 votes

Um.. There are tons of other champions who are simply weaker than Lee in every aspect, yet they don't get buffed. Why Riot doesn't buff them?

"Bronzies" play Lee because they see flashy plays. They fail to make sweet penta combos and feed. It is not Lees fault for having "bronzie" fans. You shpuldn't balance champions aroung best players, but you also shouldn't balance it for weakest ones aswell... That buff is unneeded, as Lee was always popular, he always had his strenghts. This buff is ridiculous.

Inb4 h8 on "bronzies" by that I mean players with lowe skill. Not actually Bronze division players.

Silver FluffenbuSep 23, 20151 votes

so, buff the weaker champions, too; don't argue to not buff Lee.

correct. you should balance champions around the average, which includes both tier 1 and bronze players. However, the majority of players are silver and below; and given that Lee has always been a popular pick in high play, "Bronzie" fans feeding" is not something that would have a statistical impact on only season 5.

SaiannaSep 23, 20151 votes

Ofc it would.

If 80%+ of Lee players are from lower divisions in this season, then there's no way we could say "Lee is weak across all divisions". After all more than a half of Lee games come from unexperienced, trigger happy players who still believe going 1v5 is best way to score penta.

That 80% is just my guess!! I'm sure it's more than half, but how much exactly... dunno.

Second thing Imo medium silver - medium gold is best average. I do know both silver & gold are only slightly bit more average than those below, but anything above gold and experience skyrockets.

And your first sentence:

so, buff the weaker champions, too; don't argue to not buff Lee.

Yes, please yes. Problem is Riot follows really twisted logic when comes to buffing. For example Evelynn with hands down most non-assassin ultimate. And she even received nerfs on her R. While now Lee with his kick deals (not gonna lie) 5x more damage to single target AND champions who got caught in targets trajectory.

And on top of that Lee ultimate cooldown is 1/2~~ of Evelynns.

Don't you think that is... unfair?

I'm not speaking what ultimate does tho. That's different matter. Just simply damage & cooldown.

NarasimhaSep 23, 20153 votes

Eh, I'm fine with this. Much better a Lee than a Yi or Shyvanna.

Dar RaksadaSep 23, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Eh, I'm fine with this. Much better a Lee than a Yi or Shyvanna.

I prefer playing against yi ot shyvana over playing against lee.

DivewingSep 23, 20152 votes

See the difference is, if Yi gets caught out he is punished for it.

MimySep 22, 20152 votes

I like playing people who have low pick rates... and then get mad when other people start playing them..

http://i.imgur.com/Asz9vnO.png

If you know where this is from.. <3 you.

Corrupto123Sep 23, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I like playing people who have low pick rates... and then get mad when other people start playing them..

http://i.imgur.com/Asz9vnO.png

If you know where this is from.. <3 you.

Wakfu?

ForgedOfSoulsSep 23, 20151 votes

Markiplier, yandere(spelling?) simulator now hand me my promised love

MimySep 23, 20151 votes

--huggies-- ;3

PepSakdoekSep 23, 20151 votes

The "buff" is the +5 damage to warrior? Or what buff exactly are we talking about?

Photos of GhostsSep 23, 20159 votes

Ult now does a percentage of the kicked target's health to everybody on their path. Without any nerf to base value or scaling.

1MazaSep 23, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The "buff" is the +5 damage to warrior? Or what buff exactly are we talking about?

The one that have his ult %health damage like it wasn't already the single most overloaded ability in the game

Noctius28Sep 23, 20151 votes

They will never nerf him or rework him (which is what he really needs) because the last time they tried a bunch of idiots made a shit storm (like double mordekaiser+ Fiora level shit storm) and now they are 2 scared to actually do anything to fix the most toxic champion in the game in my opinion I would rather face 6 teemos + 10 singeds + 30 Kalistas + 60 Vaynes alone then try to face a single Lee Sin with a fed team of 5 But that's mostly because he is in every single game that is not bots that I have played

Aych PiiSep 23, 20151 votes

What is so bad about Lee Sin? he doesn't have a dot, his damage is really tame past 30 minutes, his engage is completely dodgeable... I never understand what people don't like about him.

TerravirSep 23, 20151 votes

It does seem a bit unfair that junglers who are picked less and perform worst are untouched or nerfed, and Lee gets a pretty significant buff.

I get they might want to help Lee out a bit more in the late game. But wasn't that his weakness to offset his high mobility and early-game pressure?

ahferroin7Sep 23, 20151 votes

It's because he's one of the best champs in the game from an eSports marketing perspective. He's not hugely difficult to play, it's a lot of fun to watch a good Lee Sin.

Guy Fox TeemoSep 24, 20151 votes

No one in LCS plays lee sin anymore though lol

LuggSep 23, 20151 votes

Lee has been overdue for a nerf for literally years. He is an early pressure jungler who snowballs hard and doesn't drop off until late, late game. Even then, he has great utility.

Steel BlossomSep 23, 20151 votes

His ult is such cancer. Oh I see that you outplayed my stupid ADC who has no idea how to kite or position himself. Would be a real shame if I could knock you back over 1k range while dealing tons of damage so that you can no longer try to make plays without dying.

BudupopsSep 24, 20151 votes

i like playing against lee because its a free win