Wow why does lifesteal get to have 100% healing on aoes while spellvamp

Owntrolf·Dec 31, 2014·8 votes·2,044 views

Meanwhile spellvamp and their 33% overall and no single target crit 400+ heals

Spellvamp is hated. I thought they hated league of sustain

14 Comments

FadedpfDec 31, 20146 votes

Vlad with 20% spell vamp is disgusting already. Spell vamp is weak on mages that dont need it but is INSANE on Mordekaiser Akali Vladimir ETC. This why spell vamp is the way It is and will never be buffed.

TheI3igDaddyDec 31, 20146 votes

This essentially. There are very few abuse cases, but on the chance that spellvamp is ever buffed as a whole, these abuse champions will immediately become top tier.

DurzakaDec 31, 20146 votes

And what AoE are you refering to?

Oh, you mean Runaan's hurricane?

Yeah, that isnt similar at all.

Cale017Dec 31, 20141 votes

{quoted}

And what AoE are you refering to?

Oh, you mean Runaan's hurricane?

Yeah, that isnt similar at all.

Nah man, that Hydra dealing 20% AD to enemies at the outer edge of its cleaves breaks the game.

WingsofGulgazorDec 31, 20141 votes

only thing I can think of is sivir's W I think it is. or the new elixir that gives 10% lifesteal to all ad spells. But the reason they do this to ap is because during seiges they can throw spells out from a mile away where adc's have to go really close or if not adc there a mellee and can't lifesteal well and if it's a mellee ap then it's because there an assasain like akali who already has a lot of sustain during team fights form spellvamp or something like katarina who if left alive with her high damage would rekt everything.

ifauxDec 31, 20143 votes

Bloodthirster + Runaan's Hurricane on Ashe is pretty crazy too XD

karruckDec 31, 20141 votes

item 3072 + item 3085 + item 3153 = Teemo ftw

Cale017Dec 31, 20143 votes

Because the amount of AoEs available that would work with lifesteal isn't nearly as varied as the amount of abilities that benefit from spellvamp. To draw a comparison, the amount of AoEs that beneift include:

Ravenous Hydra auto attacks. Jinx's Q rockets.

In comparison, the number of abilities that benefit from spellvamp include:

Any spell a champion can use that damages an opponent. Smite. Which can also now damage opponents with Chilling Smite.

See the difference here?

If you give a champion who can apply upwards of 2000 damage with a single AoE ability (Vel'Koz for instance) full spellvamp percentage and assume he's hovering somewhere around, say, 40% spellvamp, he just healed for 800 health by pressing R and using his full ult on one person. Actually quite a bit more than that considering that spell vamp also benefits from the true damage stacks he would be getting along the way. If he hits three people with his full ult, he's just healed 2400+ health. If he hits all five people with his full ult, say in a jungle path, he just healed 4000+ damage. You'd have to do enough damage to kill him 3 times to get through that much healing.

You see how this might become an issue? Excessive amounts of spellvamp on abilities that have both high damage potential and the ability to deal that potential evenly to all targets within range of that ability means insane amounts of healing. Even looking at it more mildly, consider something like Brand's W. At max rank with the damage boost from a Q E W combo that hits all enemies on the opponent's team, Brand's ult clocks in at 318.75 (+ 75% AP) damage. Assuming he has, say, 800 AP in the late game and so much as 20% spellvamp, he's dealing 918.75 magic damage to all targets he hits and healing 183.75 per target. Best case scenario, this is hitting all five enemies on a team, meaning that he's dealing 4593.75 effective magic damage and healing for 918.75 health. So the spells that your team just burnt trying to take him down at range? Meaningless. Meanwhile he just nuked you from a distance and regained all the health he lost. Or ended up better than he was before. And none of that is accounting for any minions who might have been in range of the E spreading and the W engulfing them. For every minion you would add another 918.75 damage dealt and another 183.75 health healed. So if there's a full minion wave who happens to be nearing a teamfight under turret that the defending team might have been waiting to use to try and get an engage in, he just did another 6 counts of both damage and healing. 7 if there's a cannon minion. So at the same time as he was dealing 11025 magic damage, he would have also healed for 2205 of it. From range. Probably farther than you could even hit him with a spell, and certainly farther away than a smart ADC would be able to hit him with auto attacks. In fact, more than likely he has a tank line between you and him that's soaking up the damage he isn't even taking while he's healing for whatever smidgeon might be getting through to him.

To put it simply, casters do not need massive amounts of healing through spellvamp because ideally they aren't taking that much damage. They have superior range and/or superior burst damage compared to melee fighters or ADCs.

ADCs and melee characters REQUIRE sustain in order to stay in fights long enough to make a difference with mass damage abilities being thrown around in the mid to late game. ADCs need it to try and squeeze just a little more durability out of their squishy forms, and fighters/bruisers need it to stick to targets long enough to deal the sort of accumulative damage they need to do. In addition, aside from ADCs who if you just sit there and let them get crit after crit on you, most top laners or junglers who are building lifesteal might get somewhere around 22% assuming they've built both a BotRK and a Hydra. And assuming that they're itemizing heavily into offenses they'll probably end up somewhere around 300ish, give or take for some durability. So with 20% lifesteal, just to keep the math easy, off of 300 damage on an auto attack, not counting for damage reductions due to armor, they're gaining a whopping

wait for it

60 damage per hit. How astoundingly overwhelming.

An ADC with a Bloodthirster, a BoTRK, and an Essence Reaver will be sitting on 40% life steal. Their single target damage will probably be hovering somewhere around, for the sake of ease, 400 AD towards the late game. So every time they hit someone, again not counting for armor reductions or critical hits, will heal for a whole 160 health on every auto attack. Granted, should they take an auto attack from a fighter or a bruiser they're probably also losing just that much, probably much more. Even more if you consider taking a shot from an AP caster.

Last time I checked, 20% life steal on something like, say, a Veigar Q, which can deal upwards of 800 pretty routinely by the late game, would heal him for what, 160 or so health? Assuming Veigar's sitting on 1000 AP because he's had just THAT good of a match. This is something Veigar could achieve with one item that an ADC would require several different lifesteal items to achieve an equivalence for, items that usually you won't see ADCs building alongside each other. In fact you will more than likely never see more than one lifesteal item on an ADC, and more often than not it's either the 20% Bloodthirster or the 10% BotRK.

Last I checked, 10% of 400 damage is 40 health. Not accounting for damage reduction. Simply staggering numbers to behold, truly.

Looking at the numbers for the kind of lifesteal a champion with a Hydra, one of the few AoEs in the game that benefit from lifesteal, reducing that to a third of it's potential healing means that they're only healing for about 53 health off of that passive. Granted it would heal them for that much for every enemy within range that they hit, but if they're balls deep in the enemy team they're only healing for 265 health per auto attack. Sorry, less than that considering that they'd only be getting the full lifesteal from their target and 20-60% for those around them. So they're probably healing for something closer to maybe 150 or so damage per auto attack off of the AoE effects that you're claiming are so unfair that they beneift from, while taking hits from five enemies that I'm relatively certain would outdamage 150ish healing off of group auto attacks alone.

See, if you stop and think about it, the reason ADCs were given a shield on the Bloodthirster wasn't because lifesteal is favored over spellvamp. It's because ADCs needed a way to give themselves a bit more survivability without having to build for health because lifesteal, in a flat out brawl where an ADC with a BT is taking damage, isn't actually going to be that effective. It usually requires the ADC being incredibly fed to make it look like they're completely and utterly raping the opposition in a 1v1, and then that's because they're dealing much more damage, and so are able to take someone down faster while healing a bit more a bit quicker, making it look like their lifesteal is much more effective when in all reality it was just their damage that won them the fight.

You don't even know what you're complaining about. There aren't that many AoE effects that benefit from lifesteal, and if you got what you wanted and gave AoE abilities full spellvamp, you'd never be able to kill midlaners. Or AP assassins.

On the plus side, AP Zac would totally be viable again.

EndlessSorcererDec 31, 20142 votes

Not to devalue your argument, you have a few errors:

I'm pretty sure the AoE on Kayle's autoattacks when E is active don't benefit from lifesteal.
You forgot about Jinx's Q in rocket form and Runaan's Hurricane for AoE lifesteal sources.
You mention that "Any spell a champion can use that damages an opponent." benefits from spellvamp, but you didn't exclude abilities which apply on-hit effects.

Cale017Dec 31, 20141 votes

{quoted}

Not to devalue your argument, you have a few errors:

I'm pretty sure the AoE on Kayle's autoattacks when E is active don't benefit from lifesteal.

You forgot about Jinx's Q in rocket form and Runaan's Hurricane for AoE lifesteal sources.

You mention that "Any spell a champion can use that damages an opponent." benefits from spellvamp, but you didn't exclude abilities which apply on-hit effects.

Ah, I wasn't sure about Kayle's autos so I assumed best case for them. In that case, the only AoE ability I can think of which applies lifesteal would be Hydra's passive cleaves and it's active ability. Which means that OP's post is even more irrelevant.

Jinx's Q, yeah. That's my bad. Let's bring the total back up to two AoE effects which proc lifesteal: Hydra's and Jinx's. But Runaan's Hurricane doesn't deal AoE damage. It deals two extra single target hits to two other enemies than who the player is targeting, and those are both coming in at 10+50% AD physical damage. Runaan's Hurrican IS giving reduced healing by virtue of reduced damage. In effect it's only doubling the amount of lifesteal an ADC is getting from their auto attacks.

Abilities which apply on hit effects don't benefit from spellvamp, true. But those are benefitting from lifesteal, and are in much less quantity than the abilities that WOULD benefit from lifesteal. In addition, any ability that would be dealing on hit effects is also single target and so in either case wouldn't quite apply to the OP's argument since it's going to get either full life steal or full spell vamp either way you'd cut it by virtue of not being AoE.

DurzakaDec 31, 20141 votes

{quoted}

Because the amount of AoEs available that would work with lifesteal isn't nearly as varied as the amount of abilities that benefit from spellvamp. To draw a comparison, the amount of AoEs that beneift include:

Ravenous Hydra auto attacks. Jinx's Q rockets.

In comparison, the number of abilities that benefit from spellvamp include:

Any spell a champion can use that damages an opponent. Smite. Which can also now damage opponents with Chilling Smite.

See the difference here? ~~snip~~

This guy here gets it.

Spellvamp has ONE way it can be fixed. And i'm sure Riot knows it, and clearly doesnt want to implement it.

Every single skill in the entire game would need a different spell vamp ratio.

And that involves hundreds of different skills. And then you need to take into account the burden of knowledge of learning what skills give what % of the total % of spell vamp. And it becomes a huge cluster fuck.

Cale017Dec 31, 20141 votes

{quoted}

This guy here gets it.

Spellvamp has ONE way it can be fixed. And i'm sure Riot knows it, and clearly doesnt want to implement it.

Every single skill in the entire game would need a different spell vamp ratio.

And that involves hundreds of different skills. And then you need to take into account the burden of knowledge of learning what skills give what % of the total % of spell vamp. And it becomes a huge cluster fuck.

And people say me being unranked means I don't know anything about the game.

karruckDec 31, 20141 votes

did we forget that the utility tree has 3% bonus to spell vamp and lifesteal? not much but when you add the spell vamp items in game you get a pretty good combo