A thought on the whole Ranged vs. Melee discussion

Mister Support··10 votes·1,425 views

So one of the things I see people complain about in terms of Ranged vs. Melee champions is one of two things.

  1. The ranged champion is able to burst down and kill the melee before it's possible to get in melee range.

  2. Ranged champions have too easy of a time kiting melees, making it near impossible to deal with the range.

And honestly, if the second problem is tackled then the first one should be handled as an after-effect. But for dealing with the kiting of ranged champions it seems most people just want to make melees either tankier or faster. Which in reality that would only add to the stat-check nature of melee vs. melee match us. Instead, I want to look at ranged champions specifically in the early to mid game.

What I'm proposing is to slow down the actual attack frame of auto attacks for ranged champions, but reduce the time between attacks to keep attack speed the same overall. Why would this help?

Well, during the attack frame the champion is forced to sit in a fixed location. By slowing down the attack frame, it gives more time for the opponent to try and abuse the enemy during the attack animation. Specifically, the opponent can react by either trying to close the gap more during that time, or perhaps throw out a skillshot. Essentially, this would be a small way to add counterplay to ranged basic attacks.

Why does this need to be addressed?

I'm a support main, and from that I deal with ranged disadvantages champions the most in lane compared to other roles. From my experience, the most difficult thing to deal with on the enemy ADC is orb walking in the laning phase. For those who don't know, orb walking is the term for perfected kiting with basic attacks, while you start a movement command the moment the basic attack is fully registered in the game. Typically as engage or poke supports, the enemy ADC is able to get one to two basic attacks off on me before I can even get in range for any abilities or basic attacks of my own. Or if I do have a long ranged skillshot, it's normally easy for an ADC to dodge the skillshot because attack frames are so short as they are.

Now granted, ranged champions should be able to kite well later in the game, so attack speed should be compensated to reduce attack frame more than it currently does to make it so ranged champions will be in the same position as they are currently come late game.

TL;DR - Give more counterplay to basic attacks to increasing attack frame times on ranged champions.

5 Comments

ScissorsNstuff2 votes

ranged champions dominate, you can make it so that melee dominate but you can't really have both even if you make it feel good.

However the solution that league uses is that ranged dominates but melee champions have windows of power during which they may dominate, opening said window will require some manner of strategy. This is why disengage Ashe Jinx Jayce Ezreal Vayne is a very strong offensive option against melee champs and why assassins that bypass disengage well Zed Akali Talon Katarina are good picks against these sorts of champs.

Sona x Rubick1 votes

from my experience with other mobas in dota 2 they have both

and the solution league uses is massive mobility on melee champs or camille ulti

i really like op's suggestion, and if riot did it i would be so happy actually

ACENOX1 votes

so a turn rate kind of mechanic that isn't anti-fun? i like it

Teridax681 votes

[{quoted}](name=MadCast Fenris,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BPAyh8MA,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-12-15T21:23:38.205+0000)

But for dealing with the kiting of ranged champions it seems most people just want to make melees either tankier or faster. Which in reality that would only add to the stat-check nature of melee vs. melee match us.

That's not necessarily true if you buff the movement speed of melee champions. Sure, if you make every melee champion tankier, melee vs. melee devolves into noodle fights, and that's not fun for anyone. However, in a hypothetical situation where melee champion A and melee champion B both got the same arbitrary amount of movement speed added to them -- say, 5, or 10, or even 50 -- they'd both be able to approach and escape each other at pretty much the exact same pace, but against ranged champions, they'd get to reach them faster.

The issues you listed are correct, but to a larger degree, issues 1 and 2 blend together into the same problem, that being that it's currently possible for ranged champions to kill melee champions without ever giving them any agency. Back when Kalista was strong, she could dance around juggernauts for indefinite amounts of time and kill them slowly, without ever giving them a chance to fight back or escape (she can still do this, but is too weak to be a major issue right now). Tweaking the attack frames of marksmen could be a possibility, and at least one Rioter mentioned they regretted not giving champions turn speeds a la Dota, which would have made orb-walking less effective, but beyond that, melee champions still don't have a clear advantage that is exclusive to them, whereas ranged champions have range. Giving ranged champions worse orbwalking could be a unique disadvantage, but it still doesn't make melee champions more valued, since they don't focus too much on orbwalking anyway, and at worst it could create some clarity issues between ranged and melee basic attacking.

At the core of the melee vs. ranged issue is kiting, and specifically the degree to which kiting is allowed: in a PvE game, it's okay for ranged player characters to keep NPCs forever out of threatening distance, because those NPCs don't care about agency. In a PvP game, that logic no longer applies, and you cannot expect to implement that same kind of kiting without making melee champions either feel like crap against ranged, due to having no real say in combat against them, or unpleasantly mobile and bursty, so that ranged champions feel like crap when they get jumped on and bursted out of nowhere by champions they couldn't kill in time. Effectively, hard kiting means one side or the other loses agency, and that's not good, and what this means is that melee champions should always be able to reach ranged champions in a fight, no matter how slow they are. Kiting shouldn't be about keeping a target at bay forever, it should be about buying time and getting a head start before they get to reach you and start dealing damage. That could most easily be implemented by increasing the base movespeed of every melee champion, and that kind of model would also allow melee vs. melee to be less stat-based, since melee champions wouldn't have to have as many stats to be on par with ranged champions, and could therefore have some of them deflated.

TeCoolMage1 votes

can we then give a compensation nerf to juggernauts who are balanced around being able to screw over assassins and enemy melee tanks, as they now have 3 targets, and nerf mobility which will shut down kiting way too easily.

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