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Personal Thoughts on Marksman / Critical Damage

Stacona··4 votes·511 views

I personally feel critical strikes are out of wack right now. Let me explain. Marksmen are intended to kill tanks, but right now critical damage, especially with Infinity Edge, makes them ranged assassins with upfront damage being too high allowing to be super effective at killing both other squishies and tanks alike. Marksmen should be focused on doing their job which is tank busting and not be very good at killing squishies (or at the very least they need to ramp up their damage, which means less effective at killing squishies).

My Suggestion is this: Critical Strikes increase your follow-up basic attacks damage by +20% for 4 seconds against struck enemies, this can stack infinitely.

[sg-ahri-1]

~Infinity Edge still buffs this effect by 50% (so +30% damage per stack).

~This damage stacks additionally, not multiplicative.

~Only critical strikes reset the timer.

~This requires 5 attack in a row against the same target to reach old critical damage that you got immediately, 6+ attacks does more damage, targets that require so many attacks are tanks.

~This helps reduce marksmen snowballing once one has their Infinity Edge since it allows more room for the opponent to properly react since marksmen damage is forced into sustain damage rather than burst damage.

~Blade of the Ruined King basically gets an in-direct buff here since the passive does % Current Health and critical damage is a stacking effect. So by the time you are pumping out serious damage from raw basic attack damage is when Blade of the Ruined King's passive starts to really fall off in damage. To be fair, the purpose of all this is re-focus marksmen damage / critical damage to be tank busting focused and away from squishy assassination AND tank busting.

~I went with 5 attacks to break current even since Guinsoo's Rageblade requires 6 attacks to turn on its on-hit damaging buffing passive. Places both builds in a similar spot where they encourage you to attack beefier targets to ramp up damage over time. The idea here is whether you go on-hit marksman or traditional critically striking marksman, both of their jobs are to be strong against tanks and weaker against squishies.

Enjoy and have a nice day everyone! [galio-happy]

11 Comments

Tahminatrix 1 votes

Or maybe introduce an item that needs to be built with item 3143 in order to get a spike in surviveability against crit...this way squish(er) champions wont be abusing it unless the enemy has a hilariously poor team comp.

Stacona1 votes

Randuins is a tank item... also that solution is not a solution at all, plus all it does is makes the one ahead snowball even harder because now you are behind with a defensive item as the team's damage.

The proper fix is change the overlying system so that crit damage dealers are properly killing tanks and not being like assassins on top of doing that.

Tahminatrix 1 votes

Behind with a defensive item as the team`s damage? what? Im talking about giving tanks another anti crit item to build so they can sacrifice 2 slots in order to be extremely tanky against crit abusers. This way if an adc wants to kill tanks they have to start building more armor pen items and they wont do as much damage to squishies. item 3035 item 3153 item 1416 item 3071

Tanks already have an answer to onhit item 3110 item 3082 item 3194

C9 Squeeky 1 votes

Sounds cool but idk the math, would have to see it work in-game. Does sound like similar DPS, just not in burst (+200-250%).

Stacona2 votes

It can go beyond the limit, but the idea was not nerf marksmen damage, but change it so that they are still effective (or better) tank killers, but a lot worse at killing other squishies. Let mages and assassins be the ones for squishy killing (granted some mages are strong tank killers too, but their kits are balanced around sustain damage rather than burst damage).

Critical chance may need to get a buff across the board with this so it ends up being a lot easier to get to or close to 100% crit chance, but they do need to be re-focused to be about killing tanks rather than squishies as well, puts them back in line for what their purpose was always supposed to be. This change does help them take down epic monsters faster too since those are also meaty targets, but they are meant to do that as well.

So your initial damage goes way down, needs time to break even, and then can get even more damage an auto after many attacks later. Delay damage vs squishies while still having tank busting damage.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

dont worry. riot is nerfing fucking shivs damage to minions instead of removing its passives ability to crit, so they dont deal 400 damage lighting crits on top of 800 crit damage of their base attack.

Stacona1 votes

Crit damage needs work, I think a stacking mechanic, even giving crit items more crit chance, will work better so marksman have a lot harder time to kill other squishies (they still can kill squishies obviously, but a lot slower which is what we want) and even better to kill tanks for the trade-off. Make the marksman auto attack focus again! As in, make marksmen need to do MULTIPLE basic attacks to kill a target, squishy or tank, and not kill squishies in 2-3 autos and be tank busters that function as ranged assassins as well...

They already fixed Rageblade to make it weak as a rushed item, but still just as strong / stronger with other items / getting to late game with it. So now we need to do the same with crit focused builds.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Crit damage needs work, I think a stacking mechanic, even giving crit items more crit chance, will work better so marksman have a lot harder time to kill other squishies (they still can kill squishies obviously, but a lot slower which is what we want) and even better to kill tanks for the trade-off. Make the marksman auto attack focus again! As in, make marksmen need to do MULTIPLE basic attacks to kill a target, squishy or tank, and not kill squishies in 2-3 autos and be tank busters that function as ranged assassins as well...

They already fixed Rageblade to make it weak as a rushed item, but still just as strong / stronger with other items / getting to late game with it. So now we need to do the same with crit focused builds.

marskmen dont need more tank shredding. theyre already shredding tanks.

they dont need a compensation buff every time they get nerfed, and making that damage buff stack infinitely is going to wreck brusiers, who also tend to take extended fights. after a couple of autos theyd just be able to outdamage fighters in melee who dont get a mechanic like that.

just nerf critical strike damage. remove shivs ability to crit. remove its ability to stack with rapid fire, and nerf infinity edge by 5 to 10 ad and then increase zeal item prices, i.e. and essence reaver by 100 gold. thats enough.

its like they sat down on a discussion table, then threw in the question "how can we nerf shiv without actually affecting marksmen in any way?" and came up with the removal of that bonus damage to minions, and the buff to rapid fire, because they cant just get a microscopic nerf like that in without compensating marksmen somewhere else.

Stacona1 votes

It is not a compensation buff because it is just a straight nerf. But we need to make where they can still kill tanks since there is supposed to be their job and not do more beyond that. Bruisers are still tanks with more damage but less utility. Anything that is durable is what marksmen should be killing, so just nerf their damage to squishy targets.

Think about it, if they can kill both tanks/durable objects and squishies alike now, and they changes makes it so they can only kill tanks/durable objects then that is a NERF because they are losing something they previously could have done before the change. This makes assassins and mages better since they are meant to kill squishies over tanks (excluding some mages, but their kits are balanced around sustain damage spells) when we make marksmen only efficiently kill tanks and have a hard time against squishies that places them in proper balance.

You need to also remember that if marksmen become useless to the game then no one will pick them, which means everyone will become a tank since there are no real answers to tanks, granted there is still Rageblade builds in the game so every game will only get Varus, Kog'Maw, Teemo, and Kai'Sa - Kalista's Rend does work with Rageblade's passive for faster Rend stacking and reducing the flat AP on Kalista does nothing for her since she has no AP ratios to begin with (granted I do not know why, even just her % max health damage can use an AP ratio). But just nerfing crit champions is not a solution, just change it so crit builds are only really good against durable targets and piss weak against squishies since the damage becomes super delayed.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Bruisers are still tanks with more damage but less utility.

no. bruisers are melee carries with more defense in return for less utility and range. marksmen arent supposed to out carry every other type of carry in the game.

they arent supposed to shred bruisers to shit just because ... why exactly?

their advantage is supposed to be range and reliability. they dont need to deal more damage than apc, fighters or skirmishers.

{quoted}

You need to also remember that if marksmen become useless to the game then no one will pick them,

ever since season 2. even at their arguably weakest point. there has NEVER even been a single fucking WEEK when they werent picked at all or people stopped picking them EVERY single game.

do you know how hard theyd have to nuke that class into oblivion before they stopped getting pciked?

a nerf to crit items wont bring them even close to that point. right now theyre absurd. not op, not slightly overtuned. theyre just fucking bonkers.

crit item builds are in the thousands of gold cheaper than that of other classes, while theyre geared to outscale them at the same time. thats the point where were at.

a full adc item build item 3031 item 3087 item 3094 item 3006 item 3036 item 3026 is only 14700 gold.

really get your average bruiser or mage build compared to that and youll find that theyre a good 1000 to 3000 gold more epxensive, despite getting outscaled by crit builds.

how does this make sense?

Stacona1 votes

They are called bruisers because they bruise and bruise others, they are durable and deliver a beating. Juggernauts are a more extreme version of a bruiser, their balance is immobility for more tankiness and more damage. Regardless they are all a type of tank, bruisers, supportive-types, initiators, and juggernauts are all sub categories of a tank.

As far as marksmen go, a nerf WILL NOT fix them. What fixes them is changing their system so it is only effective against tanks, meaning if the enemy team has no tanks then you technically do not need a marksman, creates a proper rock-paper-scissors mechanic that games should use... Tanks beat Assassins beat Marksmen beat Tanks. This is a system that creates balance, where as right now it is... Tanks beat Assassins beat Marksmen beat Tanks+Assassins (little more to this, but you get the point) and there is an imbalance here. Marksmen just need to made so that they are being played to take out durable targets, and if they overlap then their balance may be out of wack.

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