yoricks ghouls really shouldnt be auto attack 1 shots lategame.

Critmaster Garen·Apr 11, 2017·63 votes·2,319 views

it makes sense during the early lane phase to be able to deal with his ability to push and to counterplay him in lane.

but maybe it would be a good idea to have the hit points of his ghouls scale up to multiple auto attacks to take them out, similar to ward hit points. especially since champion attack speed scales up even when you dont buy attack speed items. it just means as the game progresses, people have an easier time to immediately take them out before they can have an impact.

give them 2 hitpoints at lvl 11 and 3 hitpoints at lvl 16. maybe thatll solve some of his scaling issues.

43 Comments

RenownedWheat42Apr 11, 20174 votes

I love Yorick but I don't think this is particularly necessary. You'll never be without ghouls unless you're REALLY getting fucked and a mediocre Yorick can even have at least 6-8 out at a time. That's a LOT of extra damage lategame.

Critmaster GarenApr 11, 201715 votes

{quoted}

I love Yorick but I don't think this is particularly necessary. You'll never be without ghouls unless you're REALLY getting fucked and a mediocre Yorick can even have at least 6-8 out at a time. That's a LOT of extra damage lategame.

you cant have more than 4 ghouls active. if you summon more, then some of the existing ones die. (you can only prepare more graves)

it kinda sucks that his ghouls are a large part of his power budget, and come mid/late game they can be easily taken out of a fight with single auto attacks. worst case scenario is an adc with item 3085

i understand why you can just 1 shot them with auto attacks early game. but at later phases this is entirely uneccessary imo.

SpoofghoulApr 12, 20175 votes

it's not just runaans although that item is the worst

any form of aoe destroys ghouls

i tend to pick Sion into him and just build item 3068 item 3075 and gain twice the health i normally would in a game and all i have to do is actively face block Yoricks E Ghouls will then suicide on me and i gain free hitpoints The longer the game lasts the faster he spawns ghouls the faster i gain hp to the point where you become unkillable

Any champ can deal with the ghouls easy by building a item 3077 item 3751 and one of its upgrades, if you have any aoe in your kit even better

you can simply ignore the ghouls and let the aoe do the work for you

You even gain bonus gold for doing so

there is almost no upside to the ghouls at this point

Glory ln DeathApr 12, 20171 votes

You actually can have up to 8 ghouls alive at once, you just have to be fairly far away from the maiden. So, you couldn't have that many in a teamfight, but you can still have them.

ZelorxonApr 11, 20174 votes

I think he's talking about the ghouls getting oneshotted by distance from the adc before you even engage, the secondary runaan bolts and all the aoe it's going to be in a teamfight...

KaeblenApr 13, 20171 votes

or if you 5-man push mid lane and adc takes all farm? you don't get new ghouls that way.

BoilTheOilApr 13, 20171 votes

lul cant have more then 4 ghouls at a time mr know it all

din1812Apr 11, 20173 votes

his "Mist Walker" have 15% of yours hp and 30% AD and his ult have 30% if yours hp and 50% AD

Critmaster GarenApr 11, 20177 votes

{quoted}

his "Mist Walker" have 15% of yours hp and 30% AD and his ult have 30% if yours hp and 50% AD

those hp values are only against abilitiy damage, minion and monsters attacks.

mist walkers always get 1 shot by champion auto attacks and by turret shots.

its one of the reasons why Irelia hard counters yorick. she can just q reset herself through his ghouls in half a second and then turn on him.

din1812Apr 12, 20171 votes

cuz her q deal so mach damage

tower oblasli

i play with yorick and asins and i never saw his mist walkers get 1 shot maybe vs adc but you need to know that if and adc attack 1 of your mist walker that adc lost 1 aa vs you and you team in late game it can be like 700 per aa so if you buff there hp yorick will be more op and less skill cuz the deal so mach damage

ÐelofashtApr 12, 20173 votes

While I like the idea of any buffs to Yorick, I recognize how it could push him into FotM terriority. Instead of giving them more hits what about giving Yorick more ways to create them consistently? If mid to late game he could produce 2 to 3 times as many as he currently does in the same time frame then he could use different tactics for a siege. I always suggest taking some power from his ult (that being the ghouls that come with the Maiden, not the ones spawned by her killing something), and adding that power to his wall, when it is destroyed or decays it would leave graves. . . Like 1/1/2/2/3, that way he can produce more early and late game he can generate graves without things dying nearby. It also lets him set up more ghouls for just dumping into a tower non stop later in the game during an actual siege.

Weasel KenseiApr 13, 20171 votes

What little Iv played of Yorick, and seen him played more continuous ghouls would run the risk of him giving out small bags of 5G far to often. What if they had a short period of "immunity" to damage from someone hit by his E? Just 1 to 1.5 seconds where theyre "lil mini tryndemers" that are undying? This was limited to those hit by Mourning Mist it could have counterplay in "not being alone."

Or.. and this just came to me. What if they couldnt die at all while near Dark Procession (his W), say 100 units (little less than his aa range). This would reward a good W, give him some lifetime on his pets, and would again have some counterplay. It would also be a sideways buff to his W.

I dont think hes that bad, but the champs that he can beat up on arnt showing up in top lane because theyre being too badly beaten by other stuff. Adding Yorick to the list of things scaring top lane picks away would require such outrages buffs, he would be top tier mid and jg too.

ÐelofashtApr 14, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Weasel Kensei,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BJKBwEFx,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2017-04-13T00:43:19.609+0000)

What little Iv played of Yorick, and seen him played more continuous ghouls would run the risk of him giving out small bags of 5G far to often. What if they had a short period of "immunity" to damage from someone hit by his E? Just 1 to 1.5 seconds where theyre "lil mini tryndemers" that are undying? This was limited to those hit by Mourning Mist it could have counterplay in "not being alone."

Or.. and this just came to me. What if they couldnt die at all while near Dark Procession (his W), say 100 units (little less than his aa range). This would reward a good W, give him some lifetime on his pets, and would again have some counterplay. It would also be a sideways buff to his W.

I dont think hes that bad, but the champs that he can beat up on arnt showing up in top lane because theyre being too badly beaten by other stuff. Adding Yorick to the list of things scaring top lane picks away would require such outrages buffs, 5ghe would be top tier mid and jg too.

Late in the game that 5g stream would make little to no difference as players are already arriving at full builds. Mid game the production is not enough in siege situations to make a difference. The reasoning they have for doing what they have revolve around a perception of too much constant uptime and pressure from the ghouls, like old Yorick. That said, these versions do not auto focus a player, and dumping that much mana early to pump out graves would quickly result in an out of mana Yorick, thus sustain would trump just a siege tactic largely and further increase his chances to be pushed and more prone to ganks.

This analysis is what brought me to the suggestion in the first place. Both options are viable but really do end up resulting in similar results, except one offers a trade of power in there (which opens them up to perhaps reduce the CD on Maiden slightly since it would not be bringing a full crew anymore.

Asayake 5150glowApr 11, 20172 votes

Give them actual health. That way my Riven and Fiora won't be fucked by wasting 3 whole autos on the ghouls, while attack speed champions still take a few hits to kill them because of health pool. And Runaans won't fuck them as bad either.

Ariel the CruelApr 12, 20174 votes

They do have actual health. But in addition to that health, they also get 1-shot by turrets and champion AA's.

Asayake 5150glowApr 12, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BJKBwEFx,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-04-12T06:26:13.899+0000)

They do have actual health. But in addition to that health, they also get 1-shot by turrets and champion AA's.

What I meant is for their actual health to actually matter against champions.

I'm fine with turrets oneshotting them tho, Yorick is tanky and he really doesn't need even better diving against the weakass towers.

DragonSheaApr 11, 20172 votes

Make his Ghouls and maiden gain resistances. Yorick often builds a ZZ'Rot so why should he be punished for gaining them, it forces him to get HP to early for them to even be last a few seconds mid game.

ZerenzaApr 12, 20172 votes

That's the issue, they do have resistances, they're pretty good ones too, the issue is the resistances don't matter at all. Any champion, literally ANY champion can one shot a ghoul, it takes at least 3 hits to kill malzahar's minions but they do MUCH more damage and many more of them can be out at once than his ghouls. So why can't his take 2 at level 11 and 3 at 16? by then he's probably not going to be able to split push properly anyway so there really isn't a point.

xelakerApr 12, 20172 votes

the argument of giving them more health or buffs is kinda silly in non teamfighty scenarios wouldnt it? I don't wanna lose top lane to maiden splitpush with 4 little beefcakes running about. but ok, ok you say just make turrets hit them harder, got it. do you really think the adc isnt gonna 1 shot anything you pop out? or make it require 3 hits or something along those lines, and you have 4 minions that do damage, but aren't worth diverting attention to deal with? they are his passive, not his ult they do their job well enough for something that requires a little bit of effort.

I do understand what you are getting at though. if someone is on top of it they can kill the ghouls before they get much done, AND they give gold to add insult.

Critmaster GarenApr 12, 20178 votes

{quoted}

the argument of giving them more health or buffs is kinda silly in non teamfighty scenarios wouldnt it? I don't wanna lose top lane to maiden splitpush with 4 little beefcakes running about. but ok, ok you say just make turrets hit them harder, got it. do you really think the adc isnt gonna 1 shot anything you pop out? or make it require 3 hits or something along those lines, and you have 4 minions that do damage, but aren't worth diverting attention to deal with? they are his passive, not his ult they do their job well enough for something that requires a little bit of effort.

I do understand what you are getting at though. if someone is on top of it they can kill the ghouls before they get much done, AND they give gold to add insult.

i really feel like people dont understand how yoricks ghouls work. its not because they dont have enough hp that they get 1 shot.

a 700 health ghoul would get 1 shot by a lvl 1 soraka by auto attacking them. because thats how the ghouls work. theyre 1 hit kills for turrets and champion attacks.

the ghouls are not "just" his passive. he has less power in his other abilities because his passive takes up that power budget.

his e on its own is a hilariously terrible ability. its only the interactionm with the ghouls that makes it worthwile. the same goes for his q. heck, the ghouls are technically even part of his ult, considering that the maiden herself does shit for damage and one of the most important parts of the ult is that she raises additional ghouls during a fight.

not every champion has the same power in his passive. in some cases the passive is integral to a champions kit even being able to function. you could say something similar about katarinas daggers.

said ADC is 1 shotting those ghouls right now. everyone is 1 shotting those ghouls right now by auto attacking. thats how theyre coded. while this is neccessary very early on, mid to lategame they really need improvements to pose more of a lasting threat. it only makes sense, considering that every champions base attack speed passively scales and it becomes progressively easier to kill those ghouls even without attack speed items.

so it would be fair to give them additional hit points at some stage to compensate for that.

turrets could still 1 shot the ghouls. but champions shouldnt be able to.

Weasel KenseiApr 12, 20172 votes

Well, this isnt the first time this has been suggested... I will say now what I do every time.

Yorick has a 52% win rate. This would be a buff. No way a 52% win rate champ is getting a buff without losing something else. What do you want him to lose/get toned down so his win rate doesnt go up because of this buff?

Sure his playrate is low, but with buffs to make him more powerful he will see more play, and by the addition of flavor of the month seekers it will lower his win rate... but no, thats not a good idea.

Sahn UzalApr 12, 20174 votes

Sure his playrate is low

Thus making his winrate an unreliable source of information.

KudrovApr 12, 20172 votes

downvoted this post is beyond dumb shit.

MLDzXnRRRApr 12, 20171 votes

I never see Yorick. Such failed rework.

Ariel the CruelApr 12, 20171 votes

I see him all the time!

. . . I play him support. (>_>)

ZerenzaApr 12, 201711 votes

It was an amazing rework, just because a champion isn't seen that much doesn't mean their rework was a fail. His rework made him a viable pick at any level, even LCS where he's seen plenty of play. But similar to other champions he can lack the satisfying parts of a kit, he's kind of boring to play in a way that's similar to lee sin but if you play him enough you get used to him and can reach a 75% winrate with him in ranked because of how broken he actually is once you learn him.

Not every rework has to be as braindead as warwick or as completely new as Galio, sometimes riot get's it right and people complain anyway.

MLDzXnRRRApr 12, 20173 votes

{quoted}

It was an amazing rework, just because a champion isn't seen that much doesn't mean their rework was a fail. His rework made him a viable pick at any level, even LCS where he's seen plenty of play. But similar to other champions he can lack the satisfying parts of a kit, he's kind of boring to play in a way that's similar to lee sin but if you play him enough you get used to him and can reach a 75% winrate with him in ranked because of how broken he actually is once you learn him.

Not every rework has to be as braindead as warwick or as completely new as Galio, sometimes riot get's it right and people complain anyway.

There is nothing amazing about him. Feels like he has 1 ability - his Q.

no to toxicApr 12, 20171 votes

Because thats his actual only combat ability the the rest of his dmg is his ghouls wich have the dps of a mid game adc in the early game.

SoyUnPrededorApr 12, 20172 votes

"Health 100 - 185 (based on level) (+ 15% maximum health) Attack damage 10 - 95 (based on level) (+ 30% AD) Attack speed 0.5 - 1.18 (based on level)"

Oh, totally, at early game, when they attack once every two seconds for 40 damage (before armor) they totally hit like a mid game ADC. You're absolutely not making shit up, nope, no sir, not at all.

no to toxicApr 12, 20171 votes

I could star an argument on why but at first i wanna point out the obvious butthurt in your post and will leave a link wich will help you overcome your issues. (http://lesswrong.com/lw/gwx/how_to_not_get_offended/) So to the ghouls. We will use the best case scenario a Yorick can get. 3 Ghouls and the enemy is locked into his wall without being able to get out. Since the opponent isn`t release Camille they will take dmg from the ghouls . The ghouls will have around 46 ad at level 4 meaning that they will deal maybe deal 30 per auto or even less. Now the potential dmg is based on how fast the enemy can destroy Yoricks level 1 wall. This is about 1 sec meaning that the enemy loses 90 health from the ghouls alone. The highest base health is around 600 meaning the enemy lost 1/7 or 1/6 of their health from the ghouls in the spam of 1 or 2 seconds. If you look at a mid game adc he will also take 1/7 or 1/6 of a top laners health in the same time spam if you also count in the top laner having more base armor,base health and items.(and the top laner being a bruiser or tank not some ranged carry like Quinn.) Their dmg also gets higher with items but I assume that both top laners are too stubborn to leave their lane .

SoyUnPrededorApr 12, 20172 votes

So one to two seconds of them getting off about 25 DPS each, even times three is only 75 DPS-- before mitigation. Name me a single mid game ADC with sub 100 DPS, and you might have half a point.

DubshokaApr 12, 20171 votes

So many downvotes to hand out...

The two and three hp vs champion attacks is most likely the right idea.

Jeanne fan clubApr 12, 20171 votes

I think this is to balance them out. You can easily get 150 damage per ghoul auto attack. You land your E and that's like a solid 450 damage coming in all at once.

also, ghoul hp scales with your hp, so if you build some hp they should be able to survive an auto, assuming its not an adc you are fighting.

SoyUnPrededorApr 12, 20171 votes

They are coded to automatically die to one auto, regardless of damage behind said auto, this feature is what (s)he is asking to be removed.

Mr Alexius 27Apr 12, 20171 votes

They need to make a bigger hitbox for them. Yeah it's bigger from the pre-rework but they are still hard to click on when they are grouped with minion. At least, it's hard for me xd

Then they can make them more durable.

OMFG CookiesApr 12, 20171 votes

Just build titanic or ravenous.......

Mr Alexius 27Apr 12, 20171 votes

I play nasus mostly vs him, hydra is not an option for me sadly.

OMFG CookiesApr 20, 20171 votes

that works too. i mean free stacks are free. my poor ghoul caller...... [zombie-nunu-bummed]

vOmvbrawfUApr 12, 20171 votes

Sure, but let abilities kill them.

Glory ln DeathApr 12, 20171 votes

I would say that the ghouls should be given 2 "health", but only when they're near the Maiden. That would keep his power windowed, give Yorick more benefit to the extra ghouls in a teamfight, and also make his double splitpushing strategy more viable.