Are supports supposed to be helpless on their own?

Dasdi96··17 votes·1,657 views

I am not talking about mage "supports" that build almost full ap and one shot people. I am talking about traditional supports that have very low damage and low durability that are team reliant especially later in the game. Once the game passes 20 minutes, these supports need at least one teammate near them or else they will get either one shot by an assassin/burst mage or just worn down fast by a fighter.

24 Comments

Emmy Cha0s16 votes

According to Rito and Meddler, champions designed to support aren't allowed to do anything other than support. Hence their bases and scalings are repeatedly nerfed to make certain they remain in the support role. This became problematic in patch 3.14 when Rito made the shit-poor decision to create Utility scaling with AP, instead of creating a new support stat like "Willpower" from Infinite Crisis. This created the problem of having both their damage and utility scale both off of AP and hence the Solo-Lane Lulu conundrum. According to Jag and Meddler, supports are supposed to be Wardbots, free kills for assassins and a non-threat outside of buying multiple artificial damage sources such as Spellblade & Echo. They're supposed to stack Windspeaker effects and rely on their teammates' competence.

Now as I just pointed out, the solutions to #MakeEnchantersGreatAgain are both simple to do and easily implemented, but unfortunately there are many Rito employees that have a personal interest in keeping APCs in the bot lane & personal biases against real supports. Fearless is well-known for keeping supports at the bottom of bottom-tier, but even more so Meddler himself personally abuses Brand & other APCs and doesn't want real supports taking back their rightful place on the rift. Also as an ex-Janna main, Meddler has a bias against her old counters and periodically nerfs them randomly when the urge just happens to strike him. Meddler just randomly nerfs many champions, every time you see that confusing nerf to an underplayed, underperforming champ in the patch notes that just seems to have come out of left field, you know it's Meddler's handiwork, but I digress.

Rabblerouser3 votes

Traditional and AP mage supports are both doing well, actually. I don't understand that you think either are in a poor state. AP supports' contributions are just more visible, though.     I've said it once, I've said it a million times... #The reason people dislike supports today is that there isn't much visibility of their contributions to the team.

AP supports plug that hole. They have flashier abilities and (in the right hands) have pretty decent kill pressure.

Also! Imagine you're a bronze 5 support main. (I don't care if you are or not, this is from a game balance perspective.) There are going to be... TONS of idiot ADCs. I get had a Jinx in one of my promos once legit say that the reason she took on a gank 2v3 with me as JANNA and offering LITTLE damage was "I won't die without a kill". Support mains in lower ELOs will likely need to climb to a higher ELO before they can actually TRUST their lane partners to actually be competent. The typical line for climbing is "git gud and carry", but supports in this 'utopian' world of only traditional supports will never be able to carry... and thus will never be able to climb.

Mage supports have always been here and need to stay, for better or for worse. Also, though... I just find it funny you see the sudden influx of mage supports after autofill becomes a thing.

Emmy Cha0s8 votes

That's bullshit and you know it. The reason enchanters' contributions are invisible has nothing to do with "flashiness," that's the worst possible excuse you could have fabricated. I know this for a fact because, Patch 4.13's solitary goal was to make Sona's skills "flashier," "more colorful," "more VISUALLY visible." At the exact same time, she was gutted into the ground with over 30 nerfs in the same patch. Despite her abilities being more visually vibrant, colorful and optically visible, players complained of teammates claiming she was even more invisible than before 4.13. BECAUSE HER NUMERIC CONTRIBUTION HAD BEEN GUTTED.

Enchanters aren't invisible cause of "flashy visuals," I can't even understand how you begin to claim A GIANT WAVE OF WATER, A MASSIVE AOE ZONYA'S or A GIANT HURRICANE is anything short of "flashy." No, enchanters are invisible because THEY LACK NUMERICAL CONTRIBUTION. Their spells have all been repeatedly gutted into the ground that their presence doesn't exist in a PRACTICAL sense, cause they sure as hell are flashy.

Corvid2 votes

As someone who has become a nami main this season, I agree. I have adcs adding me after game because my utility kerps them alive to do damage. I don't get screwed over by all these ap supports because I can outheal them. Just rush redemption into crucible.

SuperPewPew1 votes

I still remember that a lot of people flamed and complained quite much on patch **4.13 **(and before it launched live on PBE) because of Sona's Rework, Including myself :| (Which was, interestingly enough, a work done by your dearest Fearless).

I also vividly remember how people gave feedback about it and none of it was taken into account, besides the tiny change to the "snuggle zones". I think she was pretty much a glorified minion back then. (Also similar to the time before Soraka got reworked and was dealing 15 damage per Q at rank 1.)

And, well. If she doesn't build AP, she's still a glorified minion, it seems. IF she does build AP, then she's OP because it increases all of her stats (Offensive, Defensive and Utility stats) due to the introduction of AP scaling on most aspects of her kit. Also happens to Lulu, I guess. In the end it's more useful to function as an almost assasin and burst the enemy to death under 1.5 seconds than provide a little more healing per cast on an already low base heal/shield stat. Even though the numbers are theoretically high when stacking on many champions, they're not directly noticeable effects.

Idk, Support items either have to have some AP on them or be overtuned to even be remotely useful. I keep seeing item 3107 built on every support, even those that have no inherent heals or shields, almost on a per-game basis.

Okay, that was just a rant. Tbh I'm confused as to why so many champs are getting gutted almost every patch, both because of current itemization (Lethality everywhere), and because of competitive play. (Ryze and Taliyah keep getting nerfed ._.)

I also don't understand why overperforming champs (i.e Graves, Lee Sin, Jayce, Rengar, Kha'Zix, Gangplank, Jhin. Those that you expect always make the fight one-sided and end up with the same results over and over again.) don't even get touched when they're so frustrating to play against. Lee Sin has like the 2nd or 3rd most highest play rate, ftw. Then Supports keep getting nerfed - either directly or indirectly - to the ground because of damage creep. APCs in bot lane are striving because they bring more damage to the table, even when they have low amounts of CC, and apparently killing is much more noticeable and provides more satisfaction than having assists.

Dynikus5 votes

Why are you by yourself as a support?

Guanxi4 votes

I think the point he's trying to make, is that, why is it fair that an Mage support can walk around, going and one shotting people, and not give 2 shits about anyones opinion, but an actual support cannot?

Dynikus5 votes

An actual support is supposed to support his team. It's difficult to support your team if you're no where near them.

Papa Andrei2 votes

Warding, Going from point A to B (Mid to top lane cause you are doing a 2 1 2 push. )

Dynikus1 votes

supports that can't 1v1 generally have enough sustain or cc to peel for themselves on their way to whatever lane.

NahDogSolRahn3 votes

Because I went to ward Baron/Dragon and no one wanted to miss farm to accompany me.

Keyshe1 votes

I guess warding...

Linna Excel5 votes

I think so because riot always seems to nerf supports who can go solo lane.

Yaśuo Main2 votes

Nami beat a Fiora on my team in top lane.

Didn't know whether to unleash the power of 1000 inferno blasts on Fiora or admire Nami.

Illâoi Evê Siôn3 votes

Yes, I think it's safe to say that a Support whose power budget is focused around buffing and helping allies shouldn't be able to 1v1 any other class. Just try to disengage or stall. You should have enough utility for either of those.

boo9103 votes

Morgana Lux MissFortune Sona

OurLestrade2 votes

One good thing about Taric is that he's a possible shift towards making supports that can actually fend for themselves to an extent, which is good. I'd say over half the reason people don't like playing support is not being able to look after yourself alone.

TL;DR: More manly supports that assassins are actually afraid of going near.

LordGeovanni5 votes

the irony is that tarics rework made this worse not better. pre rework: spells get 2 second cooldown reduction when taric his some one with his passive passive had only one charge per spell (idk the numbers but if tarics passive did) 80 40% armor post rework: spells get 1 second cooldown reduction when per passive hit at a fixed attack speed (idk the numbers but if tarics passive did) 40 20% armor per hit Pre rework taric: largest heal practical non ult heal in the game. Post rework taric: lowest heal in the game what is the point of healing some one if it does nothing to save them. potential aoe is not enough to justify that shit. Ironically i still play post rework taric but only for the heal but not because the heal is good but because i can proc item 3504 on my entiere team let them heal themselves and fighters get attack speed which is missing as an option from fighter itemization and i kow because i main fighters top lane.

Mysticman892 votes

Well they should be, since they don't have significant cs/kills compared to the other players, and if a champ was as strong with or without cs/kills then it'd sortof defeat the purpose of people trying for those things.

That said, helpless isn't really the term I'd use. Supports are generally picked for their utility, so they have tools to not be totally helpless, it's just they're not ever really in a position to 1v1 anyone (apart from maybe the enemy support). Additionally, supports pretty much always have a sightstone, so they in theory are the least likely to be caught out as they don't really need to facecheck things.

Shonjl2 votes

Different supports do different things. Mage supports are more there for damage than support, but do offer some cc generally, due to said damage, you can't just casually walk up to them and expect them to not to fight back, if not outright kill you so they are fine alone. Tank supports are well, tanks. They have lots of CC and are usually tanky enough that while its dumb for them to be alone, they can usually survive if someone tries to 1v1 them due to either how tanky they are or due to how tanky they are, they could fight the enemy off. Supports like Lulu and Sona are there to buff and heal their allies and just be general nuisances. Even if they do generally build some AP it usually isn't nothing to be scared of so of course there is no reason to fear them and take them out if they are alone.

If you are in the first group you are entirely fine being alone since you basically are another carry anyways, if you are in the 2nd group while it is unwise to do it since you are so more useful with a group, you can usually live unless they swarm you. If you are in the last group why the hell are you alone? You are a mega squishy that really can't do much alone, you are asking for it if you do that. And even if you do survive as the last group, chances are you wasted a lot of your kit to do so and your usefulness went down extremely(aka Sona wasted ult on you to escape, therefore becoming a nonissue in a teamfight, Lulu waste her ult to live, therefore her usefulness went down insanely since all she has left is her polymorph)

You can't really compare a mage support that are there for pressure with their damage with a full utility support. Even tank supports are no different, if a Nautilus or Braum had to waste their ults to live, while still more useful than a Sona that used hers, their usefulness went down a ton as well. If a Mage support waste their ult, they don't have it as bad since while their ult is generally a powerful thing(Annie Tibbers for instance) They can live without it due to the rest of their kit doing heavy damage(Annie can still aoe stun people without Tibbers, and she can still combo people without Tibbers for heavy damage)

Makior722 votes

Depends on your build, if you are building actual support items (Redemption, Sight stone, Aegis, etc) then yes you will have a hard time fending for yourself, but if you build differently then traditional supports can actually do well 1v1. They wont necessarily be solo carrying any games, but they can stand toe to toe with their lane opponent.

Colgate Minuette2 votes

I don't think you understand your purpose in life as a support.

You -support- other people. Your tools allow you to escape on your own (CC speed ups heals) but not actually fight somone.

Sure as most supports you CAN kill an ADC (See: Zilean, Lulu, Sona) but you shouldn't have to is the problem. That should be a last resort for you.

BLACK REALM GOD1 votes

yes they are. if a champion is classified as a primary support champion unless there's a strategy that riot hasnt heard of and had a chance to patch then as a support only champion you're supposed to rely on your allies.

there are 6 types of champions regardless of all of the subcategories. assassin, tank, fighter, mage, support, marksman.

if a champion is a support champion then more often than not they're meant to support their team and not destroy their enemies.

which is one reason why zyra is no longer great at mid. you can thank everyone who started playing her support for the overkill potential. same thing with brand.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

9/2/10 Rengar ROAR!! Leaps at 0/0/7 Taric, breaks face on pecs.

Taric Rengar?

Rengar Y-Yes?

Taric Were you trying to oneshot me?

Rengar No...

Taric item 3075 item 3143 item 3109 item 3047 item 3004 item 3068 Good. 1v1s Rengar.

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