I wish Riot cared as much about assassin balance as they do about tank balance

Cloud273·Aug 21, 2018·11 votes·2,947 views

Let's make sure Galio's entire kit can be dodged, make his ult not fully global and give him limitations on how he can use it. And let's make sure Rammus is slowed when he has his 'w' up, and let's make sure Shen's ult can be interrupted and he eats the full cooldown when this happens. And let's make sure Tahm Kench needs 3 stacks to devour an enemy and is slowed while he has them in his mouth. Oh and let's make sure these champions have REALLY high mana costs and cooldowns. But champions like Fizz and Zed having any sort of counterplay whatsoever is completely out of the question.

16 Comments

Fízz v2Aug 21, 201810 votes

or you are biased and dont see the counterplay :thinking: [vlad-salute]

Cloud273Aug 21, 20189 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fízz v2,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BEmEHEcG,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-08-21T21:08:27.594+0000)

or you are biased and dont see the counterplay :thinking: [vlad-salute]

I can tell YOU are biased just by your name. And he literally has no counterplay. It's not even a debate.

Fízz v2Aug 21, 20186 votes

"lets make sure people can dodge Fizz targeted Q by walking out of it fast enough, make his E almost impossible to hit on champs with mobility/flash, and lets make his ult a skillshot that does shit damage in melee range" sounds like your thread, no? [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Shukr4nAug 21, 20185 votes

Maybe because being intargettsble and wall jumping is already enough

Maybe the sversge damage with the cc is already enough ulti

Maybe champs that can "move fast" a point and click skill are like.. few

Maybe shren plus empowered attack is already a good deal

Dunno. Here im not the main fizz

Cloud273Aug 21, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Maybe because being intargettsble and wall jumping is already enough

Maybe the sversge damage with the cc is already enough ulti

Maybe champs that can "move fast" a point and click skill are like.. few

Maybe shren plus empowered attack is already a good deal

Dunno. Here im not the main fizz

That reminds me. Galio can't get over walls, unlike almost every assassin in this game.

Fízz v2Aug 21, 20185 votes

that reminds me. galio gets damage reduction from building damage, unlike every assassin in this game

LUL

TakazakiAug 21, 20181 votes

target cleanable ult slow as his main engage tool other then outright blitzing people ( and if he misses E then he loses 1/3 of his damage and 1/2 of his mobility ). As a yasuo main, i hate fizz. but because he is the bane of my lane ( other then malzahar ) i made sure to learn every abusible trick discovered on his ass.

further more, we went through about 3 session of leauge of tanks. we remove limiters on tanks we go back to that again. because there actually is 0 counter play for tank who rely on stat checks

ChivibroAug 22, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I can tell YOU are biased just by your name. And he literally has no counterplay. It's not even a debate.

he does doe

HalcyonDwellerAug 21, 20188 votes

Downward comparisons are not a valid form of arguing.

If you want tanks to have less counterplay, just be straightforward and say so.
If you want assassins to have more counterplay, then just be straightforward and say so.
And if you're just here to vent then just be straightforward and say so.

This passive aggressive mess presented as if it were a critique of game balance is not going to win any hearts or minds.

Cloud273Aug 21, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Downward comparisons are not a valid form of arguing.

**1. If you want tanks to have less counterplay, just be straightforward and say so.

If you want assassins to have more counterplay, then just be straightforward and say so.

And if you're just here to vent then just be straightforward and say so.**

This passive aggressive mess presented as if it were a critique of game balance is not going to win any hearts or minds.

You don't just ask for something without giving a reason. That makes you sound spoiled and self centered. But since you'd like me to be straightforward I will be. Yes I want all 3 of these things. That should be obvious from the context of the OP. And clearly some people agree with me.

HalcyonDwellerAug 21, 20182 votes

{quoted}

You don't just ask for something without giving a reason. That makes you sound spoiled and self centered. But since you'd like me to be straightforward I will be. Yes I want all 3 of these things. That should be obvious from the context of the OP. And clearly some people agree with me.

I did give reasons:

you used downward comparisons, which aren't valid forms of arguing.
passive aggressive feedback is unproductive ('will not win any hearts and minds')

When you present venting as if it is valid criticism, your "criticism" attracts people who wish to discuss solutions, when in actuality you are just venting. It ends up being a waste of their time because they don't know that you're just venting, and they try to respond as if you are here to discuss solutions. Then arguing ensues because when they provide reasoning (explaining why it's wrong to call for blanket changes based on incomplete comparisons between classes), you just call them biased or spoiled and self centered.

But sure, wanting you to clarify your motive for other people so they can tell whether or not posting in your thread will be a waste of their time or not definitely makes me spoiled and self centered. Great thesis, mate.

Cloud273Aug 22, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I did give reasons:

you used downward comparisons, which aren't valid forms of arguing.

passive aggressive feedback is unproductive ('will not win any hearts and minds')

When you present venting as if it is valid criticism, your "criticism" attracts people who wish to discuss solutions, when in actuality you are just venting. It ends up being a waste of their time because they don't know that you're just venting, and they try to respond as if you are here to discuss solutions. Then arguing ensues because when they provide reasoning (explaining why it's wrong to call for blanket changes based on incomplete comparisons between classes), you just call them biased or spoiled and self centered.

But sure, wanting you to clarify your motive for other people so they can tell whether or not posting in your thread will be a waste of their time or not definitely makes me spoiled and self centered. Great thesis, mate.

I never said you didn't give a reason, and I never called you spoiled or self centered. You certainly make a lot of assumptions, don't you? What I meant was it sounds spoiled to make a thread that simply asks for change without giving a reason. Admittedly I never specifically asked for tank buffs or assassin nerfs, but it should be obvious based on the content of the OP that I wanted them. And who says this isn't a valid criticism? I'm not gonna write a thesis every time I want change. I don't see Riot giving one every time they nerf or buff a champ, so why should I?

HalcyonDwellerAug 22, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I never said you didn't give a reason, and I never called you spoiled or self centered. You certainly make a lot of assumptions, don't you? What I meant was it sounds spoiled to make a thread that simply asks for change without giving a reason.

Oh I see. That would have been much clearer if you had used the word "one" and "them" instead of "you" in the following statement:

{quoted}

~~You don't~~ [One doesn't/shouldn't] just ask for something without giving a reason. That ~~makes you~~ [would make them] sound spoiled and self centered.

I apologize for my part in misunderstanding you though.

Admittedly I never specifically asked for tank buffs or assassin nerfs, but it should be obvious based on the content of the OP that I wanted them. And who says this isn't a valid criticism? I'm not gonna write a thesis every time I want change. I don't see Riot giving one every time they nerf or buff a champ, so why should I?

Why should you? Because instead of providing a thesis, you leaned on the crutch of generalizations and downward comparisons.

Kids are starving in 3rd world countries, does that mean that we should choose to go without breakfast tomorrow? No. The two things are only vaguely related by their shared subject of food. If you chose to not eat breakfast tomorrow, it would not cause a child in a 3rd world country to magically have breakfast all of a sudden.

Similarly, the balance of tanks and the balance of assassins are only loosely connected by the overarching topic of balance. Just because assassins are balanced one way and tanks are balanced another way does not mean that one or both are balanced incorrectly. Nor does it mean that because one is balanced incorrectly, the other should also get to be balanced incorrectly. We don't fix problems by making everyone suffer equally, we fix the problems by enabling people to raise themselves up out of their suffering.

In summary, I asked you to be straightforward because you provided only generalizations and downward comparisons in a vague, passive aggressive argument against Riot in general. If you wish to be persuasive and get your idea heard, you must be constructive in giving it. You can't present ideas and vent in the same post, at least you can't if you wish to accomplish anything. So pick one.

FrockSaintsAug 21, 20185 votes

While I agree that Riot sucks at balancing and is often biased and has double standards, to say assassins have no counterplay is flat out wrong. I agree most of them are disgusting right now, but certainly not without counterplay, even if that counterplay isn't obvious to you.

ThimesAug 22, 20185 votes

Assassins are by concept very high skill floor and situational champions. BUT if you balance them like that, the average player will suck hard on them and they will be only good certain team comps. Since Riot promotes dashy and flashy gameplay, they can't let best show off class be bad, so assassins needs to be buffed to the point that everyone can play them and win. Which means, you press ghost blade, run into 5 people and oneshot some squishy. Say hello 15/15/0 Zed.

Dorans PantsAug 22, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Assassins are by concept very high skill floor and situational champions. BUT if you balance them like that, the average player will suck hard on them and they will be only good certain team comps. Since Riot promotes dashy and flashy gameplay, they can't let best show off class be bad, so assassins needs to be buffed to the point that everyone can play them and win. Which means, you press ghost blade, run into 5 people and oneshot some squishy. Say hello 15/15/0 Zed.

so accurate it hurts.....