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Crit based champions are always going to be meta unless...

Moonfall Saber··36 votes·2,692 views

The very nature of crit just doesn't fit into the game the way it currently is amd here's why.

Crit in most other games (non Moba) usually does not DOUBLE your damage. It usually has a modifier of something like 120-150%. Take diablo for example. You can increase your crit damage and chance by getting gear that does so. This means that if you want to crit you have to spec for it.

Now in leage the base crit damage modifier is 200%. We all know this but the question is why. We have infinity edge which increases it even more and nobody ever thought that infinity edge is a problem. I think that adcs doing the most damage in the game is probably not the right way to have a game design. Divers are high risk high reward and they should be the ones that deal the most damage. Adcs however having range over every other champion in the game should not hold all the power over every other class.

If the crit modifier however was 150% and infinity edge adding and additional 50% the meta wouldn't be so blatantly one sided. (Yasuo also needs a nerf). The problem isn't adcs. It's the amount of damage they do instantly. Why is draven killing you in 2 auto attacks? Why is vayne 3 shot pentakilling the whole team? Why is Tristana killing you and you can't even get close to her? Jinx killing an entire team with exploding autos and a hurricane? Caitlin being caitlin? The only problems with the game right now comes from the adc corner.

61 Comments

Eternal Torment22 votes

You forgot twitch massacring a whole team in 6-10 autos EXCLUDING his E proc

Melledoneus9 votes

Leave him alone, he just wants to make sewer skewers for everyone.

WacingTheFind9 votes

So that's what he says when he ults! I never hear it because he just oneshots me.

Melledoneus15 votes

Twitch "SEWE-" #YOU HAVE BEEN SLAIN

Mhihnj2 votes

http://i.imgur.com/3QcQqjP.png

jwebb01138 votes

damage based champs will always be meta as long as the game is about doing damage to things and people

Moonfall Saber1 votes

Soraka was meta a while back

jwebb01131 votes

and she kept the damage dealing champs alive to sustain damage and deal more damage

Sire Hippington5 votes

Agree, though i'd go further and ask wether an aditional multiplyer stat like crit really is needed, or wether adc shouldn't scale their AA-dps via steroids and AS, maybe increase the AS cap to 3.00 to give more scaleing room. And even if we keep a multiplyer stat, i think haveing it as RNG-based damage bursts is the worst possible idea ever in a competetive PvP game...

Teridax685 votes

I feel crit used to be double damage because, at the start of the game's development, crit chance was much rarer, so crits were about infrequent bursts of huge damage. Now that most standard marksman builds have 80% crit chance, though, it and Infinity Edge work more like just a blanket autoattack damage multiplier. While I'd support crit damage getting nerfed, that would be more of a balance question, rather than one of design. I do agree that crit by nature doesn't fit in League, but mostly because it's a random damage bonus that offers additional power for no gameplay.

Beyond that, I also agree that marksmen deal too much damage overall right now, and I do think that their DPS should be on the same level as that of fighters, or vice versa. It sounds very nice and strong to say that marksmen should have the best persistent damage, but that undermines the strengths of fighters, on whom DPS is also a core feature. It's also difficult to justify marksmen having the best damage when they also have the best pushing power, the best sustain, the best objective control, the best reliability, and so on.

At this point, I think marksmen are in the greatest need of another pass, more so even than divers. It took one preseason update to improve them already, and the class is still not clearly defined enough to be split into subclasses, nor do I think they obey any of the rules of proper interaction every other class is beholden to, as they pump out massive amounts of damage that has no downtime, no means of being avoided, and no real cost. Marksmen should definitely still deal good autoattack-based damage, but that much reliability means they need to be especially unreliable elsewhere, and should have a good amount of power tied to those unreliable effects, such as conditional steroids. I don't think it's particularly fair for marksmen to have the amount of power they have right now, but on top of that I don't think it's fair either that they get to have that much power so reliably. As long as marksmen continue to have exceptional strengths stacked in their favor, they will continue to be mandatory to the game in a way that distorts gameplay and damages the enjoyment of many more players.

Paroe5 votes

{quoted}

I feel crit used to be double damage because, at the start of the game's development, crit chance was much rarer, so crits were about infrequent bursts of huge damage. Now that most standard marksman builds have 80% crit chance, though, it and Infinity Edge work more like just a blanket autoattack damage multiplier. While I'd support crit damage getting nerfed, that would be more of a balance question, rather than one of design. I do agree that crit by nature doesn't fit in League, but mostly because it's a random damage bonus that offers additional power for no gameplay.

Beyond that, I also agree that marksmen deal too much damage overall right now, and I do think that their DPS should be on the same level as that of fighters, or vice versa. It sounds very nice and strong to say that marksmen should have the best persistent damage, but that undermines the strengths of fighters, on whom DPS is also a core feature. It's also difficult to justify marksmen having the best damage when they also have the best pushing power, the best sustain, the best objective control, the best reliability, and so on.

At this point, I think marksmen are in the greatest need of another pass, more so even than divers. It took one preseason update to improve them already, and the class is still not clearly defined enough to be split into subclasses, nor do I think they obey any of the rules of proper interaction every other class is beholden to, as they pump out massive amounts of damage that has no downtime, no means of being avoided, and no real cost. Marksmen should definitely still deal good autoattack-based damage, but that much reliability means they need to be especially unreliable elsewhere, and should have a good amount of power tied to those unreliable effects, such as conditional steroids. I don't think it's particularly fair for marksmen to have the amount of power they have right now, but on top of that I don't think it's fair either that they get to have that much power so reliably. As long as marksmen continue to have exceptional strengths stacked in their favor, they will continue to be mandatory to the game in a way that distorts gameplay and damages the enjoyment of many more players.

Ahem makes a broad sweeping gesture Long, long ago before the likes of yasuo and before the time of DotA2 there was a cycle that held the balance of the game; Tanks were strong against mages Mages were strong against marksman Marksman were strong against structures Structures were strong against tanks

Items thus reflected this; More AP, less HP/resistances, less AD. It was a time when all four pillars were roughly equal, and marksman were required as always but not the reason you won or lost. Team work would often turn the game.

However, ADCs, marksman as they were back then, cried like a baby with a thousand cuts "WE DONT DO AS MUCH AS MAGES RITO". While others were playing the game, marksman mains were in the streets shouting "WE NEED MORE", and their numerous cries prompted riot to respond. And riot did. They introduced crit into a meta where 200AD and 1.25 ASP was normal. Crit, however, proved to be to strong. In direct response to its strength and the other players who had previously been shouted into silence by the marksman mains; riot created Dodge. Dodge proved to be very poorly implemented and was removed... solidifying crit forever as "the lesser evil" - like lee sin and orianna, it has stayed very strong simply because it always has been.

BUT! Times have changed, itemization has improved, and AD CREEP HAS GROWN TO THE HIGHEST ITS BEEN IN HISTORY. But not AD in general, Nay, Only on marksmen. MARKSMEN ITEMS have improved to the point where they are truly the strongest items in the game!

Crit had its place in the world many years ago. It is no longer needed; Like fossil fuels, there are alternatives that have risen on the wayside. AD has increased, attack speed has increased, penetration and offensive survivability has increased! Crit no longer has a place in the game, and it has become a cancer which all who play the game accept as immovable.

cough Anyway crit has no reason to exist anymore, and marksman (with the current amounts of AD) only need zeal to give more attack speed. 15~20% on all zeal items would be a fantastic trade off. IE itself can be reworked into building out of item 3034 instead of cloak of swiftness. Tryndamere can actually retain his crit. Its a balanced mechanic on him standalone. Ashe Would need her crit-scaling passive removed. Having the slow scale off attack speed would be a fair compromise. Jhin Lets face it, jhin kind of needs this nerf. You could make all his ult shots do AD scaling %max health though. Yasuo needs a rework in general, but replacing his double crit chance with a level scaling increased % AD (lets say 12% up to 30% at level 18?) would go a very long way towards being better.

As for champions like Shaco his form of crit is fine as is, much like tryndameres.

Aimléss1 votes

Lmao removing crit from the game and just replacing it with a little extra attack speed? And this got upvotes, seriously? I would understand if you added AS and some AD, though I don't know how that would work, I could at least acknowledge that you are actually trying to think of something and you aren't just being a marksmen hater.

PS I find it hilarious that only Tryndamere, a "Top Laner" gets to keep his crit, lol you can't make this stuff up.

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

Lmao removing crit from the game and just replacing it with a little extra attack speed? And this got upvotes, seriously? I would understand if you added AS and some AD, though I don't know how that would work, I could at least acknowledge that you are actually trying to think of something and you aren't just being a marksmen hater.

PS I find it hilarious that only Tryndamere, a "Top Laner" gets to keep his crit, lol you can't make this stuff up.

You ralize that attack speed is a multiplier and crit is a multiplier? You realize that a marksman job is to siege, take objectives, and provide back line DPS, not do more burst than a 6 item dedicated burst mage? You realize that a 6 item dedicated burst mage does LESS BURST in a 5 second window? 5 seconds is NOTHING. Its a short fight. A rotation+1. You realize that crit was designed at a time when ~200 AD was the meta? And there was less attack speed in general?

We do not, under ANY circumstances, NEED CRIT. It needs to be removed, and the current AD amounts make for a fine amount. 315AD with out runes is a good amount - buff attack speed so marksman easily reach the 2.0 mark and BAM you have a balanced class that does its job without being hilariously broken.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/31nFzQHx-picture-proof-marksman-do-to-much-damage-all-on-their-own ^ Annie does 3119 or something in 5 seconds. RQWQ.
Caitlyn? 4000. Graves? 3200. Kindred? 3900. Kogmaw? 4400.

NONE of the marksman used abilities, had bad builds (my preferred crit build...), and only right clicked. ONLY RIGHT CLICKED AND OUT BURSTED A 6 ITEM FULLY STACKED 1000AP ANNIE.

Moonfall Saber1 votes

you have said it much better than I have friend

Bladerunner77774 votes

If crit isn't good then ADCs are forced to build Lethality.

I think weak early > scale late is healthier for the ADC role (not to mention their intended purpose).

If anything, increase the gold of ADC items slightly if you want to delay their powerspike.

Moonfall Saber1 votes

they could make lethality melee only nerf crit and they give adcs attack speed or some other kind of buff to compensate. It needs to happen for the health of the game.

Weathered3 votes

Where does Master Yi (47.55% WR) and Caitlyn (44.83% WR) fall in this statement? Crit can and has in the past been an issue off and on, but making a blanket statement about every crit based champion isn't going to fix the issue because the issue is specific champion and item interactions.

Moonfall Saber15 votes

Sure you can. Nerf crit (which is the problem) then buff champions.

Tommy PickleNose1 votes

But then you run into problems with what they do when crit isn't as good anymore. You get vayne too going bork into mallet and making life hell for top laners or you get tank yi again because he his base stats got increased to compensating. Changing crit is a huge change and shouldn't just be as easy as "nerf crit buff champions"

AleksaTeemo1 votes

Except yi is melee and has no answer for hard cc as he is squishy if he wants to do so much dmg to the carries.

Tommy PickleNose1 votes

I don't quite understand what you are trying to say

ChaosThief2 votes

Master Yi itemizes as a fighter would. He's durable and does damage, but that's all he does. Vayne can go bork into mallet now if she so desires and also go top lane, yet you really don't see that much. Most top lane one trick players have learned how to deal with this kind of nonsense (you can thank quinn and I suppose gnar for that.)

It is a huge change, but it is rather necessary. Marksmen shouldn't be promoted to have a general build that lets them slaughter mages, rip assassins apart, and tear down the defenses of a tank all at the same time. It's too punishing for making a mistake against a marksmen and often times their self peel is enough to prevent you from doing anything and easily giving them the chance to turn around and kill you.

Tommy PickleNose1 votes

Yeah I never said marksmen were ok the way they were, I think they need toned down just like everyone else but we won't have that until we find a real solution that isn't "nerf crit buff champs" I like how other games do it with different characters having different multipliers but still that's such a huge change that wouldn't happen until pre season and even then I doubt the would do a change that massive while also redoing runes this preseason, if we get the change we need it's going to be over a year from now that it happens and that's assuming it's something they decide they want to change after all these years of it working a particular way.

Hammermancer1 votes

Caitlyn is a bad example die to her popularity

Cait mains do fine, cait tourists do poorly

Yi is sorta a bad pick

Kyunsei3 votes

Crit systemic should be looked at, I totally follow you on that point.

BETA2532 votes

i agree with that, crit is too strong right now, but they can't nerf it to the ground. the question is, how will they change the meta? (btw draven is PERMA-BANNED underme

Zed genius2 votes

I was thinking maybe this is another yasuo rant and then I confirmed myself

(Yasuo also needs a nerf)

Tommy PickleNose3 votes

Yeah I noticed that tossed in there as if nobody would see

i cant move wtf2 votes

I'm an adc main but I find it much easier to carry from the jungle. Bot lane is way too conditional on how good your support is compared to theirs and if you get the worse supp then you just have to passively farm and hope they don't feed the enemy too hard and that your jungle is competent enough to not let you get dove by their jungler. Play jungle if you want to climb.

Darkdemon6532 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moonfall Saber,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BEZTQw6I,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-08-25T17:31:47.977+0000)

The very nature of crit just doesn't fit into the game the way it currently is amd here's why.

Crit in most other games (non Moba) usually does not DOUBLE your damage. It usually has a modifier of something like 120-150%. Take diablo for example. You can increase your crit damage and chance by getting gear that does so. This means that if you want to crit you have to spec for it.

Now in leage the base crit damage modifier is 200%. We all know this but the question is why. We have infinity edge which increases it even more and nobody ever thought that infinity edge is a problem. I think that adcs doing the most damage in the game is probably not the right way to have a game design. Divers are high risk high reward and they should be the ones that deal the most damage. Adcs however having range over every other champion in the game should not hold all the power over every other class.

If the crit modifier however was 150% and infinity edge adding and additional 50% the meta wouldn't be so blatantly one sided. (Yasuo also needs a nerf). The problem isn't adcs. It's the amount of damage they do instantly. Why is draven killing you in 2 auto attacks? Why is vayne 3 shot pentakilling the whole team? Why is Tristana killing you and you can't even get close to her? Jinx killing an entire team with exploding autos and a hurricane? Caitlin being caitlin? The only problems with the game right now comes from the adc corner.

The game is balanced around crit being x2, not x1.5. It's not like Riot said "OK, we got this game balanced and crit is x1.5. Let's just go ahead and make it x2 for shits and giggles."

If you want to argue the balancing was poorly done, that's fine, but it's not a fundamental flaw of crit being x2.

GayFluffyUnicorn4 votes

It is. Nothing else has broken this game as often as this specific balance issue together with range/melee.

Darkdemon6531 votes

{quoted}

It is. Nothing else has broken this game as often as this specific balance issue together with range/melee.

Let's assume we have balance right now. If crit were to go to x1.5, all the champions who build crit would be buffed by an amount equal to the power they lost with the change to crit, resulting in no change.

Let's assume we don't have balance right now. Balance can be achieved without making crit x1.5. Could it be achieved with making it x1.5? Absolutely, but it's not a necessity.

Moonfall Saber1 votes

your assuming the game has balance when it doesnt with crit being the biggest problem

Darkdemon6531 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moonfall Saber,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BEZTQw6I,comment-id=000a000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-27T15:50:50.132+0000)

your assuming the game has balance when it doesnt with crit being the biggest problem

If there isn't balance, it isn't an inherent problem with crit being x2. Crit certainly may be OP, but it can be balanced without changing it to x1.5 from x2.

Aimléss2 votes

Crit was absolute non-meta trash a few months ago, now that it's meta we see posts like "Crit based champions will always be meta" like wtf lmao. It was proven this year that crit won't always be meta, people have really short memories.

Moonfall Saber1 votes

item 3147 item 3031 on most adc champs a few months ago.

Aimléss1 votes

No adc built that lmao. Jhin, MF, and Varus would go pure lethality and would not get any crit and they were all that were good. Every other crit adc was garbage in that meta. Assassins just blew them to hell pre-20 and they never got anywhere near full build in these games.

Moonfall Saber1 votes

Jhin and mf most definitely did. Both of them have crit scaling. It would be foolish not to

Aimléss1 votes

I play ADC so I know for a fact that they did. The item 3147 item 3031 build is a new build because currently it abuses duskblade's power while still building crit in this crit meta. Earlier in the season, crit was trash because it pre-buff, and back then lethality abusers would end the game in 15-30 mins every single time, so it made no sense for someone like Jhin or MF to go crit when they never even got to use it.

Thilmer2 votes

The problem of crit in this game is not the double damage. The problem of crit is that it doubles the healing from lifesteal, turning a glass-cannon into an off-tank.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

NineTailedMystic5 votes

Because Dota is kits with crit built in. There's only one item them lets you crit iirc.

MLDzXnRRR6 votes

You can't stack crit chance in DOTA like you can in Lol.

FantasySniper1 votes

DOTA only has 2 (and a half) crit items, and both of them are fairly underwhelming if you compare them to League's system.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

Crit based champions are always going to be meta

item 3070 Garen item 3070

HeresyHorus1 votes

cuz u build item 3031

try item 3812 item 3046 its damn good on him

Q for item 3046 passive proc, W + sping to shred armor and than aa the shit out of them.

just try to aa some minions with no crits before going in, and u will get high chance of Q crit or first aa after spin to crit.

the rest of the build is tanky ofc, and boots upgrade are not necessary late game with item 3071 item 3046 speed boosts.

Maligaro Spike1 votes

what's your stance about lifesteal scaling with crit? An adc healing more than every other champ build around healing is worse imho

Moonfall Saber1 votes

lifesteal is just as unhealth as spellsteal was. Riot just favors AD champions and its obvious.

PokladnicaZla1 votes

Always wondered if ADCs are supposed to be a DPS class,why doesn't crit like increase over a time they attack their target? 1 AA deals X damage,each next attack is increased and so on on to a cap.

If melee champions getting the short end of the stick is the problem,make their kits synergize with crit (similar to Master's Q and Yasuo ) or simply buff them.

Sdars1 votes

Keep in mind that would make IE stronger than other crit items.

For example at 50% crit chance, right now, having the 50% crit dmg from IE equates in dps to having 25% more crit chance. However, if you make that change, it equates to having 50% more crit chance instead.

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