She's completely and utterly invalidated by the current state of game balance. With the focus on burst casters, she can't get her damage out before they kill her. Due to her low range, it's obvious when she's going to ult, allowing the enemy team to CC her as she casts it.
Why wasn't this taken into account during her redesign?
2pudge1cup21 votesWhy wasn't this taken into account during her redesign?
Because the redesign was rushed for that silly Shurima event. Cass was the champ that could be tied to the desert who had the smallest playerbase, so she was the one that got the token unnecessary rework.
These fundamental flaws have been pointed out throughout the rework process but ignored.
DemiluniS3 voteswhat fundamental flaws?! being immobile ?! it's not a flaw, it a weakness.
and tbh, they almost entirely reverted her to pre rework state with different passive, much more responsive E and healthier laning phase...
2pudge1cup12 votesIt's the combination of multiple weaknesses that give a flawed gameplay.
She's immobile, has a short cast range, squishy, doesn't do quick upfront burst and given a passive that makes her spike in the late game while being weak in the early game. The problem is that when her power is supposed to spike everyone else is already mobile enough to play around her post-laning phase.
And no, she's not remotely close to prerework state considering that her damage is still gimped early when she needs it the most to survive.
DemiluniS2 votesso every champion have to be either mobile/long range/bursty to be considered not flawed?
Cass is the closest thing to be a sustained damage ap carry, or this thing not supposed to exist in the game ?
Amsun Thales5 votesGood thing you added 'closest'. Here's hoping that you understand that 'closest' doesn't necessarily mean 'close'
DemiluniS1 votesactually it does, since there's no other champion in the game who does it, except of ryze, but I didn't bring him as an example since he's tankier... and his range is even shorter...
Amsun Thales1 votesand you just provided the definition of 'closest' without touching 'close' at all.
DemiluniS1 votesclosest means the most close you can get. As for now, she is the most close thing to ap marksman. she doing sustained magic damage, with an odd scaling pattern that tied directly to her passive
Onegarion3 votesYou really don't seem to understand the difference between closest and close. Take 2 rich people one being a millionaire and the other a billionaire. The millionaire is the clsoest to a poor person, but they aren't close to a poor person.
Thats how the difference is not what you are describing.
DemiluniS1 votesyou real don't seem to understand that it just a matter of the scale it can vary.....she's not gonna be a marksman because she's not scaling only from items, and she's not gonna be a mage because she's not scaling directly from levels but from her passive
Onegarion3 votesDon't see how that has any bearing on what I said. The scope doesn't matter unless you want to eliminate other champions and leave an adc and cass to make your assumptions.
I get where her damage is coming from and I think Cass would be better tooled to be a early lane bully than a late game Hyperscaling Mage. Yet none of that means anything when you veer away from my point that had nothing to do about cass herself.
DemiluniS1 votesgiving her additional 40% damage on poison early is enough to compete with other mages early on... it just works in a way that if you want to deal this damage you need to go all in for the trade, instead of just poking for the exact same effect
5G8Nri0B544 votesAnd exactly why would anyone be all inning a short-ranged champion who is incapable of doing ANYTHING but all-inning?
If I play Vel'koz, I'm not going to get in her range to make things fair, I'll use my superior damage and built in self-peel to stomp her to bits...just as I have in my last vel on cass match-up.
Junkο6 votesRyze also has 3 targeted spells, and can get his power spike really early, compared to Cass who gets it at 50 min when it's too late
2pudge1cup2 votesHow about reading the rest of the post where I talk about her power spike?
That combo of weaknesses doesn't work on a late game champ. Every other late game champ that does damage has at least one of those weaknesses mitigated (ie ryze, kog, etc.)
DemiluniS2 votesat the same time those champions doesn't have aoe stun, and kiting potential she does.
you really seem to underrate her early damage potential
5G8Nri0B547 votesat the same time those champions doesn't have aoe stun, and kiting potential she does.
I'm sorry but you clearly never played Kog, Vayne, and Trist before...
And his "AoE Stun" also happens to be easily bypassed by both gap-closers and anyone smart enough to turn away for a micro-second before pursuing again.
But forget that for a minute. The real issue is that her sole source of functionality..............................is all loaded into her E. Whereas all other champions have 4 skills, Cassiopeia has an E.
DemiluniS2 votesyou putting the worst case scenario to prove your point! I was refering directly to kog/ryze, vayne and trist got their own ways to disengage but it doesn't have to do anything with the conversation.
even tho gap closers and anyone "smart enough" can bypass her ult, at the same time they can not because you can be smart enough and cast it at the right moment. It's not like when a jarvan chasing you he got flag>Q and the turn around for a second to avoid the stun, and even if her does, he's getting slowed for 2 seconds, which gives you the time to run away. She got all she need to stay around the fight and poke with Q and place a miasma in the middle of it until the moment she can go in a hit a couple of E's. it's not like all 5 people jumping on you at the same time, and cass can do pretty well in a 1v1 or a 1v2.
and I don't see any problem with her damage being tied to E and how it interacts with her other abilities, since I never went for the poison poke playstyle. Even before the remake I used to max my E first and use it as my main source of damage.
BouncingPecs7 votesAnd for you the rework is fine. You're only looking at Cass as okay because she stayed the same for you. But Riot took half of Cass' player base and told them to try playing a new champion. Her early game is LEAGUES and BOUNDS worse than pre-rework Cass. You couldn't wihttle a champion down unless they openly waited for you to hit them.
Cassiopeia's Ultimate has a high shriek right before it actually stuns, that's actually plenty of time to turn around. I have never been caught in her ult other than a Ult/Flash/Activate combo which would then make it instant.
Her heal at 100 Stacks is a joke, it's so minute when you first get it that it might as well not activate until 250 stacks when she'll most likely have the AP for it to heal for more than a quarter of an autoattack.
Any person who has faced Cass once knows the downsides to the team having her. 1) She cannot burst down carries, so the jungler or top needs to become bursty. 2) She has no lane presence for the first 10 minutes of the game, so ganking for her will have a higher chance for failure and loss of experience while ganking against her has a higher chance for success. 3) She has mid ranged poke and melee ranged engage, so she loses to true Poke Mages and Engage Mages. 5) She has a slow, a haste, and a Cone Stun. Miasma expands over time, noxious gas is actually her only reliable spell, and Petrifying Gaze still has a 50% chance of hitting you if you turn sideways while being right on top of her will also prevent the stun.
So essentially by reducing her late game poke, and early game non-comboed damage, people are supposed to make up for her other weaknesses in Gold- MMR? It seems like only a buff for high ranked players, and not even all because several of the top users have been on massive losing streaks.
BouncingPecs2 voteswhat fundamental flaws?! being immobile ?! it's not a flaw, it a weakness.
and tbh, they almost entirely reverted her to pre rework state with different passive, much more responsive E and healthier laning phase...
I guess this comment came back to bite you in the butt. Her laning phase is actually more toxic than before. Congratulations, as announced over the LCS tables. You really can ruin a champion's identity, buff numbers to make it strong and have people think it's better than before.
DemiluniS1 votesher laning phase isn't toxic! it's like saying an adc against a melee champion is toxic because he can sit back and auto attack, which a stupid argument. On top of this she restricted by mana to deal her dps, so I really don't get your point, everything I said is exactly what it is.
the fact you still salty about something I said 2 months ago is hilarious, I mean what you even trying to prove?
BouncingPecs1 votesIt's general consensus that her playstyle never changed. She's still toxic, the boards say it, it was said on EU LCS, and it's said on streams.
Giving Melees no method of reaching ranged champions would be toxic gameplay, but most have ways around that (gapclosers). And actually this comparison is mute, it's comparing 1 mage to all champions, versus your filtered version of champion type vs type.
It funny to look at statements that are wrong in the long term. Nothing to prove, just fascinatingly entertaining.
Good day,
5G8Nri0B546 votesI thought they said it was rushed and ignored because of LCS? Or something about the LCS screwed Cassiopeia over.
Mathbalnase8 votesRushed because Shurima, then ignored because LCS. Then further butchered because Stashu.
Yenn12 votesThis really needs to be addressed. This champion is 100% unplayable. I can be 20-0 and still be useless, because an underfed AD carry or burst caster can kill me before I can do enough damage.
Juhnie12 votesIf you can't outduel underfed AD carries as Cassiopeia you are DEFINITELY playing her wrong somehow..
Kingsgrave12 votesCertainlyT buffs her: She dashes backwards whenever she Qs and forwards when she Es
perfect
Ashes Arise5 votesI know that was intended as a joke, but that actually makes sense thematically and in game play. Part of it anyway XD
Snakes lunge forward when they bite. What if when she landed a Q she got a buff that increased her next E range and cause it to make her leap forward into max E range.
Onegarion2 votesIt would make sense if she was a melee snake, but she is a ranged champ. So it wouldn't make any sense for her to work that way.
Keevalroy4 votesPlease God no...don't give CertainlyT inspiration to work with this.
Ashes Arise7 votesat least if CertainlyT worked on her she'd be viable.
Ulric Greatsword3 votesAnd have three passives
Juhnie9 votesGave her a test run yesterday and I certainly didn't feel like she is unplayable or even remotely weak.. I felt that she can now reach the point where she starts working similarly to a mid-ranged AD carry — dishing out 900 damage Twin Fangs like a machine gun and healing back up at the same time — relatively reliably.
Of course she gets gibbed by burst casters if she is caught in the burst, that's the exact thing burst casters are meant to do: make squishies explode. That's what happens to every other squishy champion that gets caught in a burst caster's combo. Why is Cassiopeia supposed to be different from any other squishy mage / AD carry? Learn to play her in a way that doesn't place you in danger of getting burst down.
EDIT: Also champions should never be designed/buffed around the current meta game. That usually ends up breaking said champions when the meta shifts towards them for some reason.
DaCush5 votesIt's because everyone that jumped on the I hate Cass and Riot train don't want to lose. They will never be satisfied. Trust me.
WooBeeWoo8 votesAdd no mobility and its game over
DaCush3 votesYa, since there aren't any viable not unhealthy non-mobility champs in the game. And since Kalista, the star of mobility that everyone freaked out about is a top pick and extremely overpowered.
/sarcasm
Fluppets7 votesThere is a noob-trap set up with her Passive.
The reasoning is simple and it makes sense in a way: Your passive gives you %AP, so you build AP so you get **MORE **AP.
But her passive actually allows you to build** LESS** AP and still do alot of damage and at the same time circumvent her greatest weakness (as you rightly point out): her, well... weakness. You build her tanky and your passive will provide you with the damage.
Rod of Ages: Rush this, start with 
Catalyst.
Why? Due to your scaling you wont be looking to kill champions anyway during laning phase, so focus on survival and late-scaling, you also need a higher mana pool for the E mana return. RoA is perfect for that.
Abyssal scepter: take this when an AP is fed or they have a double AP comp.
Zhonya's: take this vs all-in assasins like Zed or fed AD. her active is less usefull on cass than some, but it's still great.
Rylai's: take this for some general beefyness, armor and mr is useless without some HP anyway. It's still 100 AP and the passive is obviously perfect for Cass. Take this when you have bruisers diving you for easier kiting.
Rabadons: The breakpoint of MR where void is better than Rabadons lies higher, because you get even more AP from the passive. The Magic penetration doesn't help with the E lifesteal either.
Void Staff: there is math out there, but I'd start looking for void around the 90 MR mark, with other AP's id go for it from 70 MR.You need to do damage in the late game; so make sure you survive the early game. An ADC has a support to protect them, which allows them to go full damage from the start. Cassio can't (unless you take her APC bot lane) so you build abit more beefy. That would be a problem, but not with her passive; even beefy she can still have sufficient AP.
Besides do you really want to do high damage early-mid game? They will build MR for you, the support will get Locket. I say Nooo... just lay low, let them build Armor for the AD's and then, when they dont suspect it BAM: your passive kicks in, with no magic resist on their team to hold you back. Fangs left and right, poison everywhere in a cloud of unmitigated carnage.
Abyssphere7 votes{quoted} There is a noob-trap set up with her Passive.
The reasoning is simple and it makes sense in a way: Your passive gives you %AP, so you build AP so you get **MORE **AP.
But her passive actually allows you to build** LESS** AP and still do alot of damage and at the same time circumvent her greatest weakness (as you rightly point out): her, well... weakness. You build her tanky and your passive will provide you with the damage.
I think it's more "build AP so you can get enough passive AP to make up for your gutted ratios".
Fluppets2 votes{quoted} I think it's more "build AP so you can get enough passive AP to make up for your gutted ratios".
So tell me, how is that working out for you?
Mathbalnase6 votesHer gutted ratios? Not well.
5G8Nri0B546 votesThe reasoning is simple and it makes sense in a way: Your passive gives you %AP, so you build AP so you get MORE AP.
But her passive actually allows you to build LESS AP and still do alot of damage and at the same time circumvent her greatest weakness (as you rightly point out): her, well... weakness. You build her tanky and your passive will provide you with the damage.
And more importantly...
Her bonus % AP certainly is a trap, but it's a trap for people gullible enough to think having 1000's of AP makes you super special awesome when in fact it's just an artificial amount that translates to a whole lot less when you take into account how poorly her abilities scale.
**edit: **You may be wondering why I have two #1's...blame this stupid-ass auto-formatting forum.
ShinySylvee5 votes"Ranged dps characters are invalidated because burst exists"
Guess that's why there's guaranteed to be at least one ranged dps character on both teams. You really shouldn't be in range of a burst mage with all their cooldowns up past laning phase as any squishy character. Cass isn't the only one that gets blown up.
"I can be 20-0 and still be useless, because an underfed AD carry or burst caster can kill me before I can do enough damage."
If you are 20-0 as Cass and are getting solo'd by underfed carries, it's either because you're not landing skill shots or are getting stun locked and attacked by more then just their carry. Not dealing damage because you're missing skill shots or getting stun locked and bursted aren't weaknesses that Cass exclusively has. I usually have no problem soloing fed carries as Cass. If you are struggling against underfed carries you're doing something wrong.
ImHerVoice3 votesyeah? Well say that to riots "we love E, Q/W never existed anyway, don't worry"
Serpents Embrace5 votesThe Cass rework could have been good, yes.
Although I don't think your reasons are quite accurate as to why they're bad. The major problem is the identity abandonment that violated the core tenet of a rework: focusing on the champion's goal fantasy. Cassiopeia's was never the hyper carry Fangspammer Stashu has tried to turn her in to, and it will never play well even if a mage hyper-carry found a niche in the meta because you're forced to use high pressure ground based skillshots that have almost no reward for hitting until you follow them up with a low range, auto targeted skill.
Also, nothing was taken in to account during her rework. No player feedback about her. I'm not even sure the team that worked on her rework had even spectated any Cass games or played her at all because they definitely missed the target with what they focused on. (And giving her an evolving passive; the fuck's with that?)
Fed by Snu Snu2 votes50 min power spike on a 35 min average game mode.
Genius.
Elphrihaim1 votesFluppets' argument if I may rephrase it as one
"Cassiopeia's %AP passive and ratios may be significant compared to her base damage, but building tanky AP both lets you get more damage out of those bases while still having passable scaling-- but also letting you stay alive so that you don't die, and thus you get to cast more spells (and more spells = more damage)."
Which I completely agree with, as Sorcs/RoA/Rylai's/Abyssal/Zhonya's/Seraph's is pretty good but would be especially good on somebody that depends on some close range. Perhaps Furor enchant so that you can Q->E->step->E->run->Q->disengage due to the pair of hastes?
edit: and it is for these testing reasons that I am actually going to have to start playing new cass ;_; I didn't want to until she was free week but my fate has become sealed.
5G8Nri0B541 votesThe flaw in that argument is that Cassiopeia lands on the fact that her bonus AP granting her the ability to shoot up to ridiculous degree is to compensate for her generally shitty ratios.
To use an analogy, imagine a special needs student is getting an automatic 20% boost to his final grade % to make up for his disability. Knowing he will get a free boost to his grade, the kid instead chooses to do other non-academic stuff under the idea that his boost means he can slack off while retaining the grade of his fellow classmates. Unfortunately the child is unaware that he naturally has extra difficulty to do well academically to begin with, the free grade boost being there not to give him an edge, but to solely help make up for his inherently poor grades.
Now replace academic success with ratios and grade boost with the boost in AP.
...I think I could have thought of a less offensive one, but nothing's coming to mind.
Giovarco1 votesThese QQ are so annoying. Just stop, give useful feedback and let Stashu to work. We all know she's not the same Cassiopeia. No, they aren't going to revert his rework. After the last patch, I started to play Cassiopeia again and I carried almost each game. I even had a connection issue in a match and started at level 1 against a level 8 Swain and a fed Rek Sai. All was flaming. I played safe and got my core items and I carried hard. I feel like you're playing her like pre-rework. Don't and you'll win. No, I'm not excusing Stashu, but we need to be realistic and resign ourself.
yellowbricks2 votesThese QQ are so annoying. Just stop, give useful feedback and let Stashu to work. We all know she's not the same Cassiopeia. No, they aren't going to revert his rework. After the last patch, I started to play Cassiopeia again and I carried almost each game. I even had a connection issue in a match and started at level 1 against a level 8 Swain and a fed Rek Sai. All was flaming. I played safe and got my core items and I carried hard. I feel like you're playing her like pre-rework. Don't and you'll win. No, I'm not excusing Stashu, but we need to be realistic and resign ourself.
The only useful feedback is to revert this garbage. It will only not happen because people like you roll over and accept this travesty, leading stashu to believe it's what people want.
I will not resign myself, Cass did not need this shitty rushed rework. She was fine before. Who cares if you had an anecdotal victory with her in a normal game? She's not FUN anymore because of the terrible shackle passive and the awful gutting of her ratios to compensate.
Giovarco1 votesNo, he's not going to revert it regardless people's opinion and we can't force him to do so. Complaints don't help Stashu to improve this garbage, so we should just collaborate with him with some ideas. Stashu said he would keep working on her and I have no reason to believe the contrary.