Upcoming Grasp is a power creep.

Azadethe·Dec 6, 2017·3 votes·473 views

Just came across Anklespankin's video testing the potential of the new Grasp on PBE.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGrI2Z27B4A

Now, realistically, no person will ever get close to 99 Stack Grasp.

However, I have had games where a Cho gath would be in combat long enough to about 10 stacks, where we were basically tank vs tanking, and everyone had heals. 10 Stacks is about 360 AP or 480 AP at those HP levels.

I've also had games where Darius is in combat long enough to get about 7-8 stacks, which for a normal Darius build is like +280 AD.

I really hope the new grasp doesn't get shipped to standard servers in this form. Juggernauts with extended fights are going to make 60 minute Gathering Storm or 1500 AP stack Veigars look like jokes, and not because they are skilled, but because of who they are.

16 Comments

NocturnalSheildDec 6, 20175 votes

What!!!

Adcs wont be able ignore juggernauts until the end and then immediatly heal any damage back and might have to actually respect them.

GASP.

AzadetheDec 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

What!!!

Adcs wont be able ignore juggernauts until the end and then immediatly heal any damage back and might have to actually respect them.

GASP.

As to what alternative? Rushing Mortal Reminder, leaving lane at level 8 to camp and possibly feed Darius before Crit, Before AD? Darius is going to have 780 AD in long fights reliably. He will shred with bleed alone, not to mention his ult. Cho will have 1200 AP and 6k HP before people can even build to counter him.

FuhrerRicoDec 6, 20172 votes

Good. They will be strong if a few select situations where they are definitely meant to be strong...if they can even survive. Don't forget this doesn't change how easily kited they are.

AzadetheDec 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Good. They will be strong if a few select situations where they are definitely meant to be strong...if they can even survive. Don't forget this doesn't change how easily kited they are.

Juggernauts are not easily kited. They are the only champs who build Dead Man's Plate in the game, Boots, Ghost, and Phage items. Their base move speeds are also higher than champs who have move speed buffs.

HTF do you think a Darius manages to Penta? It's not because people are just standing around. It's because move speed soft caps at 561, and once move speeds are active, Darius has that, and so do the people he's chasing. He can keep up enough to Apprehend and then it's RIP

Illaoi is about the only slow Juggernaut, and even she itemizes to make it work.

Darius, Udyr, Sion, etc all have kits to stay in the fight/force others to stay in the fight. Stop trying to push this narrative that they are not mobile and hat they lose whenever people avoid them. it's simply not true.

FuhrerRicoDec 7, 20171 votes

Darius actually loses 1v1s against certain champs (shocker...) And absolutely can't reach certain kite champs without ghost and flash, even with deadman's (and even then fails a good amount against the kitiest of champs AKA vayne, kalista, ezreal, karma, etc. So quick crying dude. He IS immobile and ANYONE can buy deadmans or take ghost.EVERYONE (but cass hue hue) buys boots.You also straight up LIED about juggs being the only class to buy deadmans. It's commonly built on tanks and fighters such as rammus, xin, hecarim, alistart, and more. Sometimes I even see it on assassin's (though rarely) and mages such as zed it, again, karma. So your entire premise is straight up garbage man. This is 100% shit tier whining about things you have no clue about simply because a few personal bad experiences. Here's a fact for your prejudice BS: juggernauts have garbage win rates (at least before new patch) almost across the board and are a fricken laughing stock. And believe me, as a Darius main, I have neither gotten not witnessed a Darius Penta in months. So you're full of shit man. Unlike other champs when broken, Darius is easily kited or run away from when he has no sum spells. Easily. His early Laning is trash now too, btw. So suck it up and wait until we see if these fixes are actually OP or not you little whiner.

AzadetheDec 7, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Darius actually loses 1v1s against certain champs (shocker...) And absolutely can't reach certain kite champs without ghost and flash, even with deadman's (and even then fails a good amount against the kitiest of champs AKA vayne, kalista, ezreal, karma, etc. So quick crying dude. He IS immobile and ANYONE can buy deadmans or take ghost.EVERYONE (but cass hue hue) buys boots.You also straight up LIED about juggs being the only class to buy deadmans. It's commonly built on tanks and fighters such as rammus, xin, hecarim, alistart, and more. Sometimes I even see it on assassin's (though rarely) and mages such as zed it, again, karma. So your entire premise is straight up garbage man. This is 100% shit tier whining about things you have no clue about simply because a few personal bad experiences. Here's a fact for your prejudice BS: juggernauts have garbage win rates (at least before new patch) almost across the board and are a fricken laughing stock. And believe me, as a Darius main, I have neither gotten not witnessed a Darius Penta in months. So you're full of shit man. Unlike other champs when broken, Darius is easily kited or run away from when he has no sum spells. Easily. His early Laning is trash now too, btw. So suck it up and wait until we see if these fixes are actually OP or not you little whiner.

The funny thing is, for all your gaff, Darius has a 56 % win rate among players with more than 50 games on him :)

P.S.: All but Xin that you mentioned building Dead Man's...... Are Juggernauts.....

GigglesODec 7, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Their base move speeds are also higher than champs who have move speed buffs.

Mordekaiser

ha ha yea fucking right

you want to talk about fast movement look at lee sin and master yi.

ElkingtonDec 6, 20174 votes

I'll have to test it myself before judging, but if Riot doesn't intend to buff defenses then giving juggs more damage is one of the few alternatives that can actually improve them. They're supposed to be damage threats and they're currently getting outclassed by tanks in damage, defense, and utility.

Currently, most marksmen can beat juggernauts by themselves once they get 2 items (or less if they got a lead), which should never happen even if they're at full build.

AzadetheDec 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I'll have to test it myself before judging, but if Riot doesn't intend to buff defenses then giving juggs more damage is one of the few alternatives that can actually improve them. They're supposed to be damage threats and they're currently getting outclassed by tanks in damage, defense, and utility.

Currently, most marksmen can beat juggernauts by themselves once they get 2 items (or less if they got a lead), which should never happen even if they're at full build.

Aftershock is godly defense. I don't know where you get the idea tank went anywhere (diff keystone, but if that's what rocks your boat).
Sorcery's Orb makes juggernauts godly vs mages with a built in magic shield.
That's news to me. If we're talking a Vayne top vs a Darius, Darius will win 8 of 10 times. He'll also beat a Quinn. There are very few adcs who outright beat juggernauts, and that would be Vayne vs one that has no gap closer/peel, and only because she does % based true damage.
Atm most Juggernauts take 4 teammates to put down. They are not losing solo unless horribly wrong build and horribly wrong runes.

ElkingtonDec 7, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Aftershock is godly defense. I don't know where you get the idea tank went anywhere (diff keystone, but if that's what rocks your boat).

Sorcery's Orb makes juggernauts godly vs mages with a built in magic shield.

That's news to me. If we're talking a Vayne top vs a Darius, Darius will win 8 of 10 times. He'll also beat a Quinn. There are very few adcs who outright beat juggernauts, and that would be Vayne vs one that has no gap closer/peel, and only because she does % based true damage.

Atm most Juggernauts take 4 teammates to put down. They are not losing solo unless horribly wrong build and horribly wrong runes.

Just stacking HP makes Juggernauts good against mages in most cases. I would argue Sorcery's Orb is better on assassins, since they actually have to worry about getting bursted down.

Not all juggs can make use of Aftershock. Grasp is far better on Trundle and Mundo for example.

I've rarely ever seen Darius beat a Quinn or Vayne in lane without jungler intervention, even before preseason. I've been seeing a lot more Ezreal in nearly every position than either of them.

FuhrerRicoDec 7, 20172 votes

So inaccurate...you obviously don't play as dar vs vayne top...his only chance is to go tri force, ninja tabi, and steraks gauge for burst...and even then he needs JG help or vayne will fricken destroy any Darius post 6 in a 1v1 as long as she knows anything about kiting. You obviously hate juggs and want them to remain trash. Just admit it

FuhrerRicoDec 6, 20172 votes

Juggernauts need buffs dude. Maybe it should be shipped to see if it is actually strong. Remember, most fights don't last long, even for juggernauts, these days, and they could stand to be good at what they are meant for at least....

Critmaster GarenDec 7, 20171 votes

here is the thing.

if this was something only juggernauts could do around midgame and lategame, then the rune would be fine even with its crazy stacking. juggernauts can easily be disengaged on, and realistically they would probably never build a lot of stacks in most cases.

however if they were able to just keep themsleves going through a fight, like a darius repeatedly hitting his q to heal up and stay in fight longer, then theyd be more rewarded for doing what theyre supposed to be good at. extended fights.

as you could see in the video as soon as the game went out of the lane phase he has never gained more than 2 stacks even a on a mobile champion like jax who can switch targets, chase and stick really well.

there are only 2 issues with the current pbe version of grasp.

1.) smart management can allow you to keep the stacks going on minions in lane for extended times which can lead to a huge advanatge over your opponent. while even with the infinite stacking it doesnt seem overpowered outside of lane, its definitely very powerful through the lane phase.

2.) the infinite stacking might empower the wrong classes. tanks who are most likely going to live the longest start dealing a lot of damage over the course of a fight and become juggernauts, and bruiser skirmishers/assassins might make a comeback if the rune was shipped as it is.

imo the new version of grasp would be fine if it only gave its bonus once instead of stacking to crazy amounts.

AzadetheDec 7, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B9saaFcu,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-12-07T02:51:22.207+0000)

here is the thing.

if this was something only juggernauts could do around midgame and lategame, then the rune would be fine even with its crazy stacking. juggernauts can easily be disengaged on, and realistically they would probably never build a lot of stacks in most cases.

however if they were able to just keep themsleves going through a fight, like a darius repeatedly hitting his q to heal up and stay in fight longer, then theyd be more rewarded for doing what theyre supposed to be good at. extended fights.

as you could see in the video as soon as the game went out of the lane phase he has never gained more than 2 stacks even a on a mobile champion like jax who can switch targets, chase and stick really well.

there are only 2 issues with the current pbe version of grasp.

1.) smart management can allow you to keep the stacks going on minions in lane for extended times which can lead to a huge advanatge over your opponent. while even with the infinite stacking it doesnt seem overpowered outside of lane, its definitely very powerful through the lane phase.

2.) the infinite stacking might empower the wrong classes. tanks who are most likely going to live the longest start dealing a lot of damage over the course of a fight and become juggernauts, and bruiser skirmishers/assassins might make a comeback if the rune was shipped as it is.

imo the new version of grasp would be fine if it only gave its bonus once instead of stacking to crazy amounts.

Here's the thing: Jax doesn't have long fights because he either erases or he gets out. Ofc he's not going to stack. Tank Sion, Mundo, Cho Gath, Darius all have much much longer fights, and have the ability to stick to targets.

When I look at this rune, I'm thinking strongly of a game I lost as Leona jungle, where I was carrying my team 13/3/24. However, I had a couple teammates feeding a Cho gath, and late game he was at like 19 stacks. He was able to recover/raid boss about on par with what I was doing as Leona, and while I tried to keep him stunned/cc'd for my team to kill HIS team, he eventually got the upper hand and began killing. The lock took forever.... like 80-90 seconds, because I was ccing him, aftershocking him, damaging him, healing myself, and it just put us in such a stalemate that neither of us went anywhere. In that time, Cho would have stacked some 15-20 stacks. That Stalemate never would have happened. His Grasp would destroy my Aftershock, and he'd have enough AP left over to literally 1v5 my team, Spiking one after another, and just destroying their HP with stacked Veigar like force. And, that's on a champ where the whole strategy is supposed to be team play to kill him.

I've also seen a Mundo 1v5 a team, one after another, in what amounted to about a 1:10 fight. These fights DO happen, and they shouldn't be given extra leverage, because they ARE true snowballs, and most juggernauts can make them happen.

Critmaster GarenDec 7, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Here's the thing: Jax doesn't have long fights because he either erases or he gets out. Ofc he's not going to stack. Tank Sion, Mundo, Cho Gath, Darius all have much much longer fights, and have the ability to stick to targets.

When I look at this rune, I'm thinking strongly of a game I lost as Leona jungle, where I was carrying my team 13/3/24. However, I had a couple teammates feeding a Cho gath, and late game he was at like 19 stacks. He was able to recover/raid boss about on par with what I was doing as Leona, and while I tried to keep him stunned/cc'd for my team to kill HIS team, he eventually got the upper hand and began killing. The lock took forever.... like 80-90 seconds, because I was ccing him, aftershocking him, damaging him, healing myself, and it just put us in such a stalemate that neither of us went anywhere. In that time, Cho would have stacked some 15-20 stacks. That Stalemate never would have happened. His Grasp would destroy my Aftershock, and he'd have enough AP left over to literally 1v5 my team, Spiking one after another, and just destroying their HP with stacked Veigar like force. And, that's on a champ where the whole strategy is supposed to be team play to kill him.

I've also seen a Mundo 1v5 a team, one after another, in what amounted to about a 1:10 fight. These fights DO happen, and they shouldn't be given extra leverage, because they ARE true snowballs, and most juggernauts can make them happen.

really, juggernauts are the only class id say is balanced with this version of infinitely stacking grasp. past the lane phase at least. in lane its op on everyone.

mundo and darius should be able to stack the rune and be rewarded with ridiculous amounts of damage if they manage to stay in the fight for that long. remember they have to fight you for 8 seconds just to get two procs.

theyre slow and easily kited, which makes it easy to make them drop their stacks.

you fight a darius with grasp like you always fight him. you dont let him get stacked, disengage for a moment and let his passive fall off.

the only way mundo sticks to you is if he hits every single cleaver. if he misses one, you have a window to walk away from him.

as far as teamfights go, this infinite stacking crazyness might be the thing juggernauts really need to finally be worthwile carries over just picking a tank on top lane to peel for the marksmen.

the problem really is that not only juggernauts would pick this up.

Critmaster GarenDec 7, 20171 votes

im confident that this is just experimentation with the mechanic on the pbe and that its overtuned on purpose right now to test the waters of what they can do with the rune.

its something that riot has been doing more and more recently. garens w parry scaled up to 90% damage reduction on the pbe for a couple of days for example when they added the mechanic.

so id like to remind everyone to calm their tits about grasp right now.