Limit duoing to hidden MMR not Tiers.

Kai Guy·Apr 19, 2019·2 votes·1,151 views

Remove the range Gap allowed for duoing in solo/duo to be off the same range MM would consider fair

10 Comments

Metal JannaApr 19, 20191 votes

I mean... I guess. It would be pretty much the same, only less clear because you can't see your MMR. Could possibly lead to more embarrassment trying to queue up with friends only to find out that one of you is too low.

Kai GuyApr 19, 20191 votes

Not remotely the same. MMR moves faster then LP. Silver 4 and G 1 is currently ok. This effectively represents the Range from Bronze To Plat as Tiers are slower then MMR. Edit (let me see if I can provide some needed perspective for folks here. p4 and p3 is about 6.72% of the games players. B 1 b 2 is 12.13% The remaining silver4 to gold1 represents 62.89% of the games population. So MM is looking at potentially a worst case range pulling from 81.74% of the games players being put in the same Mach. That's a massive range that covers more then half the games players. This is not a narrow range. Using MMR you can narrow it down to say 3 divisions. The worst % gap at that is looking at silver 4-2 and that's at its very worst going to be 29.15% of the games players. )

Your correct that from this change it will cause issues w people trying to duo. It would lower the # of duos in the ladder. Its about making a better MM for Solo/duo. The less dramatic your MM range to build the less mismatches happen.

Ultimatly, no duoing is never gonna be to big of an issue because when the best player caps out their duo is going to handicap them. But for every mismatched game your looking at 8 other blokes not enjoying a quality match.

When and If riot was to make this change they have to weigh player participation and retention from the folks who very clearly enjoy Duoing Vs MM Quality.

Frankly I say make Flex the place more attractive for Duoing, Give that que a much higher range MM considers fair. Less then normals, more then solo.

KVbqbFsC8eApr 19, 20191 votes

I would prefer if they removed duo queing outright.

Kai GuyApr 19, 20191 votes

I don't disagree however its a proven method to encourage player participation and enjoyment. Their needs as Devs would likely suffer despite it being a benefit on paper for players. To many people want to play W friends and enjoy the game more. The middle ground I find fair is having flex be a less strict area for groups and to allow competitive duoing but with restrictions that your very similar in skill to not throw off MM quality by impacting the ranges it pulls from.

Timethief49Apr 19, 20191 votes

Well, but then it wouldnt be hidden anymore, or atleast not really.

Kai GuyApr 19, 20191 votes

Exact values hidden, you don't 100% know if its cuz your low or they are higher. You don't see the exact loss per match which discouraged players.

I think its a very reasonable compromise with the intent of matching dev needs, player needs, MM needs, Solo only players and Duo only players. Check my response to Metal Janna to see why I care about what the Duo range represents.

If you think its unfair or can provide a better solution I wholeheartedly encourage you to share.

Timethief49Apr 19, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B9EIK3IR,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-04-19T21:43:49.006+0000)

Exact values hidden, you don't 100% know if its cuz your low or they are higher. You don't see the exact loss per match which discouraged players.

I think its a very reasonable compromise with the intent of matching dev needs, player needs, MM needs, Solo only players and Duo only players. Check my response to Metal Janna to see why I care about what the Duo range represents.

If you think its unfair or can provide a better solution I wholeheartedly encourage you to share.

Na, never put too much effort into the whole mmr thing, just think people are way too good in abusing pretty much everything given.

Kai GuyApr 19, 20191 votes

I love MMR systems. Mathematical and self correcting? Constantly adjusts expectations in response to new information. Its a beautiful concept to me.

Now far as riots implementation goes. I would say that in all honestly yes, It works but It can work better. I see issues with Duoing. I am sharing the issues I see with players. I hope I am clear and understandable why and where I come from. To just repeate what I said to Metal.

At worst current duoing can have a gap between that is representing 81% of the games total players. Swapping it to be off MMR ranges built around what Tiers are meant to represent to be 3 division and it drops down to 29% at worst, in silver 4-2 Its even small in other MM ranges.

This is directly related to what you can see in matches. Yea im looking at the worst cases here but as this change makes 0 impact on folks already close I don't think its that unreasonable to want to cut the worst case range by over 50%.

Timethief49Apr 19, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B9EIK3IR,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-19T22:03:29.602+0000)

I love MMR systems. Mathematical and self correcting? Constantly adjusts expectations in response to new information. Its a beautiful concept to me.

Now far as riots implementation goes. I would say that in all honestly yes, It works but It can work better. I see issues with Duoing. I am sharing the issues I see with players. I hope I am clear and understandable why and where I come from. To just repeate what I said to Metal.

At worst current duoing can have a gap between that is representing 81% of the games total players. Swapping it to be off MMR ranges built around what Tiers are meant to represent to be 3 division and it drops down to 29% at worst, in silver 4-2 Its even small in other MM ranges.

This is directly related to what you can see in matches. Yea im looking at the worst cases here but as this change makes 0 impact on folks already close I don't think its that unreasonable to want to cut the worst case range by over 50%.

If it was actually open how it works i would be a lot more into it like chesses elo system (idk if they old elo was the exact elo).

Kai GuyApr 20, 20191 votes

I would put $ down that It was not. You quickly find an issue if you try to run 5v5 RNG teams as Zero sum games for the system. MM just cant always find players with similar uncertainty. If you run a single uncertainty value that's not accurate for each teammember you run into issues when you try to build a skill curve. So The easy way to compensate is reduce the investment per account in a match to reflect system uncertainty. Basically not everybody in a match should have the same stake on the outcome, This is why in many MMR systems if you have a player in a Placement/Provisional game you see their teammates have lower MMR gains/losses because they have that player at max system uncertainty.

Chess Elo is usualy done as zero sum games. It also does not have MM and instead adjusts system expectations to deal with mismatches and gains. MMR systems need to be able to account for individual skill in a team of 5 RNG allies v enemy's. A limited MM range is a very important part of making that work and why I constantly tend to object to how duoing is set up and made this post.

Doubt I will generate attention as I am telling folks that MM is functional but also Riot can do better so I don't get a very good echo chamber effect where people blindly support me for holding similar views to them. Plus most folks don't love math or enjoy spending their free time learning about systems and how things work.

Feel free to bug me if you have any questions about MMR, I wont be able to tell you riots but I can try and provide you helpful links + my opinion which is built from actually learning about the topic rather then folks who haven't even looked at the FAQ riot provided and/or just parrot what they see get upvotes on boards.

Side note, bigger issue then duoing is the current player behavior system. Toxic population of the game needs to be controlled because even if it only hits 10% you would see it far to often.