@meddler: can we make dft scale with total ad instead of bonus ad?

Critmaster Garen·Dec 31, 2016·2 votes·504 views

i dont quite understand whats the point of having 2 keystone masteries for ad assassins that do almost exactly the same thing.

both thunderlord and dft add a bit of bonus ad scaling magic damage to their ability rotations. obviously assassins will always go for the one of the 2 that synergizes better with their playstile. which is thunderlord in every single case. i have not seen a single assassin chose dft throughout the entire season 6 until now.

why not make dft a better choice for caster type bruisers instead, who dont stack enough bonus ad to make the current version of keystone efficient for them, but get higher base stats?

at least then it would synergize with

13 Comments

EndlessSorcererDec 31, 20163 votes

Thunderlord's Decree and Stormraider's Surge are for assassins.

DFT is aimed more towards siege casters and DoT mages.

Critmaster GarenDec 31, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Thunderlord's Decree and Stormraider's Surge are for assassins.

DFT is aimed more towards siege casters and DoT mages.

it can still remain aimed at siege casters and dot mages. i dont want to change that.

but it also has an ad scaling, that is obviously aimed at caster type ad champions who stack a ton of bonus ad. or in other words, ad assassins.

the overlap with tld is uneccessary in my opinion.

EndlessSorcererDec 31, 20165 votes

I'd say the AD scaling is more for the benefit of AD casters like Varus, Jayce and Corki.

Critmaster GarenDec 31, 20163 votes

{quoted}

I'd say the AD scaling is more for the benefit of AD casters like Varus, Jayce and Corki.

varus might be literally the only exception.

the other two ive always seen with thunderlord. so i really dont see the point. it might be aimed at them, but they dont seem very interested anyways.

Espy PsycheDec 31, 20161 votes

"Caster type AD champions who stack a ton of bonus AD" =/= "AD Assassins"

On the AP side, that's like calling Syndra or Lux assassins -- they're not, they're mages. An AD mage would be a champion like Urgot or Varus who primarily uses ranged siege mage style abilities that scale off AD.

The only champions that fit that mold are:

Ezreal (TLD is usually better, but DFT Ezreal can be better in matchups against assassins or as part of a poke comp, when he can't get in to use an auto attack) Jhin (probably the best AD user of DFT) Urgot (DFT is probably the best mastery for him) Varus (Mid Varus tends to build Muramana into bonus AD and lethality, so DFT adds a significant amount of damage to his Piercing Arrows).

And that's it.

Critmaster GarenDec 31, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Espy Psyche,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B3AjmtJR,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-12-31T16:37:21.360+0000)

"Caster type AD champions who stack a ton of bonus AD" =/= "AD Assassins"

On the AP side, that's like calling Syndra or Lux assassins -- they're not, they're mages. An AD mage would be a champion like Urgot or Varus who primarily uses ranged siege mage style abilities that scale off AD.

The only champions that fit that mold are:

Ezreal (TLD is usually better, but DFT Ezreal can be better in matchups against assassins or as part of a poke comp, when he can't get in to use an auto attack) Jhin (probably the best AD user of DFT) Urgot (DFT is probably the best mastery for him) Varus (Mid Varus tends to build Muramana into bonus AD and lethality, so DFT adds a significant amount of damage to his Piercing Arrows).

And that's it.

ezreals q triggers on hit effects. as far as i remember it counts as an auto attack even though its a skillshot and shouldnt even trigger dft. i remember the ability definitely didnt trigger item 3285 in the past, because ive tried it on an aram. so it doesnt count as a spell that would apply the mastery.

he can go for warlords or fervor since his q can interact with both.

urgot can easily go for thunderlord. hitting his e alone triggers it already. it would make little difference to him. stormraider might also be an option to chase an enemy while hitting him with acid hunters. or even courage of the collossus to interact with his ult.

jhin has other options. he could go warlord, thunderlord or stormraider. they all synergize with his playstile.

the only one on that list who wouldnt have much other options is varus really.

like whats the point of keeping the mastery available for these champions when they arent even interested or reliant on it? making it scale with total ad would open it up for a much larger pool of champions.

AbyssphereDec 31, 20161 votes

It's Bonus AD because if it was total, the base damage would be Massively buffed for everyone and this is supposed to be a scaling mastery. The base on DFT is 8 - even if the new scaling was only 10% Total AD, the base would increase by more than 50% at level 1.

Bonus AD is used on hybrid keystones for a reason and Riot are not going to abandon that for Garen's sake, lol.

Critmaster GarenDec 31, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Syndra Mechanics,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B3AjmtJR,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-12-31T16:54:22.058+0000)

It's Bonus AD because if it was total, the base damage would be Massively buffed for everyone and this is supposed to be a scaling mastery. The base on DFT is 8 - even if the new scaling was only 10% Total AD, the base would increase by more than 50% at level 1.

Bonus AD is used on hybrid keystones for a reason and Riot are not going to abandon that for Garen's sake, lol.

even ap scaling champions have base ad. actually very similar values to most ad champs. brand for example has 57 base ad + 3 per level, ending up at 111, which is pretty decent.

there would be no issue in replacing the current base value on the mastery and changing the scalings around a bit to end up the same on ap champs, if it scaled off base ad + bonus ad + bonus ap.

the current base value on the mastery would pretty much just get replaced by base ad scaling of the champion.

the mastery would just have a higher base value overall at lvl 18, and a lower scaling in ap and bonus ad, but there would be little to no difference in the value mages would get out of it when combined. it would scale the same into lategame, just slightly less item dependent and more level dependent.

the only one who would actually feel a nerf on the mastery would be jhin, due to having the largest amount of bonus ad in the game. but like i said. its not like he doesnt have plenty other options.

Blue Collar BearDec 31, 20161 votes

You'd probably break Juggernauts, and other classes, as a whole. It would be a balance nightmare.

Critmaster GarenJan 1, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blue Collar Bear,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B3AjmtJR,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-12-31T17:33:15.455+0000)

You'd probably break Juggernauts, and other classes, as a whole. It would be a balance nightmare.

you overestimate the impact that change would have. the one juggernaut who is currently strong, which is only darius really, already has powerful keystones available to him with fervor and colossus.

making dft an ok pick on him compared to the other two amazing picks wouldnt have much impact.

Blue Collar BearJan 1, 20171 votes

The most common used keystone on Illaoi is Deathfire Touch. She makes use of it better than any of the other juggernauts, and she's able to get away with building more damage items than the other juggernauts, because of her range. The base damage alone late game would be absurd.

There's also the issue of damage on assassins now that all of their burst is delayed. I think it would break them, too.

HigeJan 1, 20171 votes

as if making it out alive from a Jhin's ult with 10 hp wasn't awful enough -.-

Critmaster GarenJan 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

as if making it out alive from a Jhin's ult with 10 hp wasn't awful enough -.-

"change" the scaling not "buff" the scaling.

obviously that would mean reducing the bonus ad ratio in return, which would nerf the mastery only for jhin really who has massive amounts of bonus ad and would lose more damage on dft than anyone else.

it would probably also slightly nerf the mastery for some assassins who stack like 400 ad by lategame. but they dont want it anyways right now. not over thunderlord. so i dont see the issue there.