You know what really grinds my gears???

DeusVult··6 votes·693 views

When people complain about tanks/bruisers/juggernauts dealing damage while building tanky, then turn right around and say that mages/adcs/assassins need more defensive options on their itemization.

news flash: tanks and juggernauts deal damage to squishy targets, and pretty much ONLY squishy targets, because they have high base damage or continuous AoE, and their targets dont build any armor or MR. Or health even. Bruisers deal damage because they build 1-2 offensive items and deal damage around their CDs. Have you ever seen a tank fight another tank? They deal 0 damage to each other.

Meanwhile Adcs and AD assassins have seen a huge increase in damage mitigation and safety while still building damage in the past few seasons. item 3812 item 3814 item 3026 item 3155 item 3139 item 3046 are all items that ADs can build to become tankier and avoid damage while not reducing their own. Tack on items that Riot tailored for them in item 3504 item 3109 item 3190 item 3107 and they can become juggernauts in their own right, as seen in the worlds patch.

The hypocrisy must end. To complain that a tank deals too much damage to a champ that is building 0 MR is unfair, yet an ADC can face tank a tank or juggernaut because of lifesteal and hybrid AD items that combine offensive stats with defensive passives. Thats bull shit. I know, you know, Riot knows it, but they love ADs atm, so they do nothing about it.

19 Comments

Zero Skill Tank2 votes

juggernauts deal damage to squishy targets, and pretty much ONLY squishy targets

Please stop posting in gameplay.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

How is this not gameplay related? He's talking about the game design affects champion balance; specifically the double standards regarding durability and damage combinations.

Zero Skill Tank3 votes

He is talking about game design indeed, only WHAT he is talking complete bullshit. Pretty much every single jugg is a MASSIVE tank shredder, and those who aren't easily become one by buying BC.

We have enough pure bullshit on gameplay boards.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Oh is that so? Riot called skarner a juggernaut, how does he shred a tank without using an overloaded item?

Terchio3 votes

He's since been called a Diver. His focus is not on damage, like the actual juggernauts. His CC is kinda extreme, as well.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Divers may as well just be assassins since he's the only one that used to have durability. Which is more out of touch than claiming this guy is blatantly lying.

Terchio1 votes

item 3071 is a tank shredder, no matter how you slice it, one of the best, in fact. The item was made for Juggs. You can say that it was moreso made to allow Juggs to cope with tanks, but with the amount of regeneration on most of their kits, they're basically a tank's worst nightmare already. These champions need 2-3 champions to focus down, or else need to be kited by ranged CC or damage. That's not to say they can't kill a few squishies in the right circumstances, but the tanks get far outclassed quickly unless they get some extreme damage help, and probably some hold, too.

That assassin thing, though... I don't know where you're going with it. If you're implying Skarner is an assassin, just no. No assassin lacks some form of leap, plain and simple. They also typically lack things like stuns and shields. Divers have some speed (or slow/CC) to initiate a fight, but instead of having an escape button like an assassin, they all generally use their mobility to go in, and must rely on brute strength or above average defenses to squander a misplay. Assassins generally can leave as quickly as they hopped in.

Gameplay generalities, like kill threat and mobility, don't do us many favors. If you're going by those, there'd be basically no reason to split Wardens and Vanguards, as both are tanky mofos who deal heavy CC. You have to look at a whole kit's playstyle expectation to get a truer sense of who fits in what class. Skarner is meant to rip champions up and bring kills to an ally, similar to a Blitzcrank who actually has to risk his own skin. Don't conflate that with an assassin.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

I'm well aware of what it's capable of, I've lived through the league of cleavers. Sterak's gage was also made for bruisers then reworked for juggernauts, and frankly I don't care which fragment of the group items are designed for. Your rambling is going around the bush, however I agree tanks are too easily replacable because of overlap.

I'm referring to the group riot calls divers, skarner is clearly out of place, hence why I said the majority of the group are assassins, and skarner shouldn't be considered under such a title. Skarner has been reworked several times now, but was healthiest as a bruiser; thanks to his significant damage limited to melee range, and his previously only crowd control being his ultimate, though he had minor speed and shield boosts.

Potential classes based on what they're biased to do is something I've kicked around posting myself, as it could clear up some discrepancies by informing those who read how & why I list champions together. As you mention and I concur each has a specific design to do something, but the potential for other actions is still plentiful and shouldn't be discounted. For example; most people think of blitzcrank only as an engager, picking off some enemy for his team to kill. Though he can still be used as a counter-engage, pulling an assassin away from an ally, buying time to deal with the intruder. More extreme cases would be support shaco and jungle karthus, which require much more knowledge and skill with what the champion can do under different pressures.

Terchio1 votes

Just hop onto divers, sure, because OP was of course talking about divers.

Well, fine. we'll talk about divers.

Skarner is a diver. You know who else is a diver? Renekton RekSai Olaf Camille Aatrox . I mean, sure there are a couple assassiny ones, like Diana Rengar Elise , but that's not what a diver is. A diver grabs a target through any means, then simply has more difficulty escaping from battle once he wastes his movement abilities on going for a kill, and has backup stats or power to deal with it. Divers are not assassin class part B.

Learn your divers, and then go segway some other thread. This here is about Juggs.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

And you pick a few of the bunch to make your point. Aatrox Camille Diana Ekko Elise Hecarim Irelia JarvanIV Kayn Kled LeeSin Olaf Pantheon RekSai Renekton Rengar Skarner Vi Warwick MonkeyKing XinZhao Yasuo Divers have a few things in common skarner lacks; some massive mobility ability but his is a weaker speed boost than udyr, high damage combo which he doesn't since his rework, and survivability to shrug off an attacker though again he's flimsy compared to others here. Divers are just the grey area between bruisers and assassins; just like juggernauts being the intbetween of tanks and bruisers. Your description just makes them sound like an alternate assassin, lol. There's always overlap and it's most noticeable using flexible builds.

Terchio1 votes

Still about Juggs. Still legit, though Skarner may be the weakest one. There's always a weakest. Skarner also isn't that bad on damage if he builds that way. The burst down champions are few and far between on that whole list. Most are going to whittle and all-in, or else hold while the gank completes the kill.

Skarner has to be "weaker" to make up for the fact that he has basically the strongest CC combo out there, but isn't considered a Vanguard because his CC is harder to land than most (melee, no hops), and is very single-target, basically no CC in AoE, so he feels spent quickly. That single-target aspect is what makes him a diver.

But yeah, still about Juggs. That's my real point. Always has been. Go make your own thread. I'm sure the support will be endless.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

My point is even when he builds hybrid like the others, he underperforms across the board. His last rework was more or less a failure; giving him location based power and turning him back into a cc bot, neither really what make a juggernaut or diver, but he's been more of the former in the past.

Terchio1 votes

Look again at those divers. They don't necessarily have CC, a few are more damage based, but a heavy amount of them have a good strong CC to hold the enemy down. Olaf would be a complete flop on the list if it weren't for his permaslow potential. RekSai is basically a knockup bot. However, their effectiveness is almost exclusively single-target, and often melee.

Actually, every single one has hard CC other than Rengar Olaf .

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Some cc is still cc, regardless of what it is, the sole exception I'd make is for the 'channel interruption' riot gave kassidin after his rework. And I thought it was obvious that it's a mix, not cookie cutter identical between each.

Terchio1 votes

?

I think I might have misspoken myself. What I think I meant was:

They don't necessarily lack CC, a few are more damage based, but a heavy amount of them have a good strong CC to hold the enemy down.

However, I can't make heads or tails of what you said. Not sure what Kassadin exception we're talking about, nor what's not identical.

Takazaki2 votes

Remember when garen had to get buffed because he was a juggernaut getting his ass handed to him by tanks?

i memeber

Edit: before i get called out for not inputing anything. what im saying is that juggernauts dont die to things in fights unless kited out

Darius Illaoi Garen Chogath Nasus

prime examples of juggernauts who will kill you if they get close to you, but are harmless other wise. All of them Can kill tanks, its just it takes for ever unless they itemize to do so which cripples their defenses making it easier to kite them by their primary threat.

the juggernaut trade off is if you don't wanna take 10+ seconds to kill a tank you're going to die X amount of auto attacks sooner.

Kledy McKledFace1 votes

mages need a huge rework but roiot is way too lazy for that

RavenMagus1 votes

then turn right around and say that mages/adcs/assassins need more defensive options on their itemization.

I'm pretty sure no one is saying ADCs need more defensive options on their itemization.

Mizaya1 votes

It's fine dude. Most complaining on here is done by juggernaut/mage players anyways. I for one would love to see the days of Darius killing multiple enemies by himself come back, as it would be funny AF and I don't really play this game seriously anymore.

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