Why does sterak’s give so much?

The thigh guy··2 votes·1,978 views

This item, by itself supplies on average at level 6, 46 ad. Which admittedly isn’t that excessive except it keeps scaling up And 450 health + 75% more of that health when it gets popped. That’s an average of almost 800 health by itself. Which again, scales up with more items.

So 46 ad. Ad valued at 35 gold each point. 46 * 35 = 1610 Health is valued at roughly 2.5 gold for each point. 787 * 2.5 = 1967

3577 gold worth of stats on this thing, which admittedly is conditional, but not so much that it can’t be accounted for. Now this would be fine. This I could see being a perfectly serviceable item by itself. My issue arises when we push past it being by itself. Let’s take a look at it once we hit 4 items (not including boots) and we’ll use a standard bruiser build being Steriks Triforce Titanic hydra Spirit visage. Pretty average build for a bruiser. I think, and we’ll assume perfect farm so you are level 12 just to lower the efficiency as much as possible, and we’ll use relevant stats to steraks only (being the hp and ad gained)

So. This build provides from steraks 61 ad Including shield 1250 hp. 61 * 35 = 2135 1250 * 2.5=3135

That’s 5260 gold worth of stats. Coming from one item, that already efficient by itself.

And yes, I’m aware that “you won’t always have the shield” but it’s on a low enough cooldown that you can and will likely have it for any and every fight that matters.

If any other role was handed an item like this, people would lose their minds about how hyper efficient it is. The only item that gets even close is full build infinty edge, and Mejiai’s While stacked (which has a risk)

Edit was forums not liking the *

55 Comments

ModThe Djinn11 votes

You're taking a 3.75 second shield that decays rapidly after only 0.75 seconds and trying to cost analyze it as if it were normal HP. That's not really a good way to do things.

Heck, for that matter we could calculate out the cost of Infinity Edge assuming you have 300 AD, meaning it's worth about 75 bonus AD (or 2600ish gold), making that item worth 6800 gold for a cost of 3400. Or Deathcap on a 400 AP build granting 160 bonus AP from that passive for about 3480 gold, making that item value worth 7534 gold for a cost of 3600.

End-game items have super high gold efficiency. This is intentional. Sterak's actually isn't that high compared to some of them.

The thigh guy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AwPH1zQs,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-03-28T18:58:35.772+0000)

You're taking a 3.75 second shield that decays rapidly after only 0.75 seconds and trying to cost analyze it as if it were normal HP. That's not really a good way to do things.

Heck, for that matter we could calculate out the cost of Infinite Edge assuming you have 300 AD, meaning it's worth about 75 bonus AD (or 2600ish gold), making that item worth 6800 gold ev. Or Deathcap on a 400 AP build granting 160 bonus AP from that passive for about 3480 gold, making that item value worth 7534 gold.

End-game items have super high gold efficiency. This is intentional. Sterak's actually isn't that high compared to some of them.

3.75 seconds on a shield is more than long enough in the current state of the game for it all to be used.

Most ad champions who build infinity edge outside of yasuo and tryndamere won’t get near 300 ad, maybe 200.

And deathcap is also a horrible item by itself, sterak’s is a great item by itself.

And yes, I understand late game items are meant to be super highly efficient, but steraks functions as not only a late game item, but even sometimes as a first item rush with a power spike better than most items in the same, save maybe triforce.

ModThe Djinn5 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AwPH1zQs,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-03-28T19:04:06.170+0000)3.75 seconds on a shield is more than long enough in the current state of the game for it all to be used.

Not true in most cases (since it decays fairly rapidly after 0.75 seconds), and also still an insufficient reason to be using the full gold value of hit points in every case.

Most ad champions who build infinity edge outside of yasuo and tryndamere won’t get near 300 ad, maybe 200.

At 200 AD it still is worth about 1730 bonus gold, for a combined total value of 5530 gold.

And yes, I understand late game items are meant to be super highly efficient, but steraks functions as not only a late game item, but even sometimes as a first item rush with a power spike better than most items in the same, save maybe triforce.

Trinity Force -- A rush-viable, strong late-game item worth 3862 gold in stats with the normal Rage passive and 4342 in stats with the Rage on-kill passive, discounting Spellblade, which can easily add 200+ damage every 1.5 seconds. That easily puts the gold value up there with the estimate Sterak's value you generated.

Or Seraph's Embrace, worth 4494 in stats just from itself, not counting base mana, bonus mana, or the shield.

Sterak's is not really a huge outlier.

The thigh guy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AwPH1zQs,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-28T19:11:33.024+0000)

Not true in most cases (since it decays fairly rapidly after 0.75 seconds), and also still an insufficient reason to be using the full gold value of hit points in every case.

At 200 AD it still is worth about 1730 bonus gold, for a combined total value of 5530 gold.

Trinity Force -- A rush-viable, strong late-game item worth 3862 gold in stats with the normal Rage passive and 4342 in stats with the Rage on-kill passive, discounting Spellblade, which can easily add 200+ damage every 1.5 seconds. That easily puts the gold value up there with the estimate Sterak's value you generated.

Or Seraph's Embrace, worth 4494 in stats just from itself, not counting base mana, bonus mana, or the shield.

Sterak's is not really a huge outlier.

There’s no other way to accurately measure the value of the shield. That’s like saying we can’t say yi has too much true damage on his e because he only has it for x amount of times.

As for triforce, the item costs a significant amount more gold, For similar efficiency, but then you start account for how not every champion can use all the stats on it, and how it doesn’t gain additional value from any other items. (Although it used to)

And seraphs, you won’t generally have this item until atleast 2 items anyways, so it has a ramp time, steraks does not and supplies similar value after that ramp time.

Mordepool1 votes

The value of the shield on immobile champions is Less than on Mobile ones. So there is that variable.

Moody P3 votes

because bruiser champions have some of the weakest kits in the game alongside having the widest selection of stats they need to have, and are compensated for it with strong items

the same reason marksmen get to keep this ridiculous crit design so that riot doesn't have to address how trash their kits are

Mordepool3 votes

The reason Steraks gives so much is because Low target access champions need a lot to compete with the Ranged Abuse. Frankly i have to say this item needs some retuning to give Immobile Juggernauts more out of it. Atm its a Divers item and that's BAD.

Its intended users dont use it nearly effectively as much as the Mobile users.

Lovelle3 votes

Sterak's is one of the main (arguably only) items keeping juggernauts on life support at the moment. Please go complain about Rageblade or Spear of Shojin instead.

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

Sterak's is one of the main (arguably only) items keeping juggernauts on life support at the moment. Please go complain about Rageblade or Spear of Shojin instead.

I mean. Yeah they are broken as well. Spear more so due to not needing other items or even synergies to work well.

But that’s my problem with steraks. It’s a great item by itself. Then scales to be an even better item with others.

It’s litteraly the PERFECT item. The only thing it’s missing is a free handy.

Lovelle1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AwPH1zQs,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2019-03-28T23:37:35.836+0000)

I mean. Yeah they are broken as well. Spear more so due to not needing other items or even synergies to work well.

But that’s my problem with steraks. It’s a great item by itself. Then scales to be an even better item with others.

It’s litteraly the PERFECT item. The only thing it’s missing is a free handy.

I wouldn't go that far. It's only useful as (at least) a second or third buy, you can't rush it. I personally can't stand the recipe for building it. Juggernauts have enough damage in their kits, they don't need pickaxes. The recipe and scaling currently far better suit divers. Juggernauts mainly build it for the health and shield, since resistances hardly do anything on non-tank champions past a certain point.

It's one of the best defensive items in the game right now, but only because all of the other options are just plain terrible. Defensive itemization/scaling needs to be improved across the board before nerfing Sterak's.

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

I wouldn't go that far. It's only useful as (at least) a second or third buy, you can't rush it. I personally can't stand the recipe for building it. Juggernauts have enough damage in their kits, they don't need pickaxes. The recipe and scaling currently far better suit divers. Juggernauts mainly build it for the health and shield, since resistances hardly do anything on non-tank champions past a certain point.

It's one of the best defensive items in the game right now, but only because all of the other options are just plain terrible. Defensive itemization/scaling needs to be improved across the board before nerfing Sterak's.

Agreed on the defensive itization part.

But it can be rushed. That’s the problem I find with it. This kind of hyper efficiency isn’t tolerated for any other items. I mean every other hyper efficient item has a restriction of some kind.

Seraphs embrace - takes a large amount of time to become good Mejais - insanely risky Rabadon’s - horrible first, second and even third item Infinty edge - requires another 5800 gold to become really good. Cinderhulk - strictly outclassed by steraks Guinsuu - arguably the most broken item in the game. Requires either in kit synergy or another item to become good.

Meanwhile there is steraks. What does this item need to be good? Basically just be melee so you can build it.

Lovelle2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AwPH1zQs,comment-id=0007000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-29T00:04:06.037+0000)

Agreed on the defensive itization part.

But it can be rushed. That’s the problem I find with it. This kind of hyper efficiency isn’t tolerated for any other items. I mean every other hyper efficient item has a restriction of some kind.

Seraphs embrace - takes a large amount of time to become good Mejais - insanely risky Rabadon’s - horrible first, second and even third item Infinty edge - requires another 5800 gold to become really good. Cinderhulk - strictly outclassed by steraks Guinsuu - arguably the most broken item in the game. Requires either in kit synergy or another item to become good.

Meanwhile there is steraks. What does this item need to be good? Basically just be melee so you can build it.

I cannot think of a single champion in the game that benefits from rushing Sterak's. Cinderhulk is most certainly not outclassed by Sterak's, as it is primarily bought for the waveclear and 15% health bonus (it's also getting buffed soon). Both of the items synergize with each other.

Personally, I would never rush Sterak's Gage, nor have I ever seen anyone do it in-game.

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

I cannot think of a single champion in the game that benefits from rushing Sterak's. Cinderhulk is most certainly not outclassed by Sterak's, as it is primarily bought for the waveclear and 15% health bonus (it's also getting buffed soon). Both of the items synergize with each other.

Personally, I would never rush Sterak's Gage, nor have I ever seen anyone do it in-game.

Any melee champion dealing with large early burst like renekton can rush steraks.

As for steraks vs cinderhulk. Against steraks clearly wins. It gives more effective health, due to the passive shield, and offers and increase in wave clear due to the ad. Although cinderhulk will help more against jungle camps but that’s just due to it being a jungle item itself.

I’ve rushed it plenty of times into early bullys while playing scaling picks like gp, and Jax (pre god tier) It litteraly makes pantheon, renekton and Quinn cry cause they can’t snowball very easily.

Lovelle1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AwPH1zQs,comment-id=000700000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-29T00:15:38.468+0000)

Any melee champion dealing with large early burst like renekton can rush steraks.

As for steraks vs cinderhulk. Against steraks clearly wins. It gives more effective health, due to the passive shield, and offers and increase in wave clear due to the ad. Although cinderhulk will help more against jungle camps but that’s just due to it being a jungle item itself.

I’ve rushed it plenty of times into early bullys while playing scaling picks like gp, and Jax (pre god tier) It litteraly makes pantheon, renekton and Quinn cry cause they can’t snowball very easily.

On juggernauts you can't do that, especially in the jungle. It's too risky to rush a pickaxe on a champion that primarily scales with health and CDR. I can understand on a champion with massive bonus AD scaling (or has mobility and/or ranged attacks), otherwise it's a good way to set yourself behind and never catch up.

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

On juggernauts you can't do that, especially in the jungle. It's too risky to rush a pickaxe on a champion that primarily scales with health and CDR. I can understand on a champion with massive bonus AD scaling (or has mobility and/or ranged attacks), otherwise it's a good way to set yourself behind and never catch up.

The only juggernaut who consistently jungles is skarner. And jungle is a very different beast than laning when it comes to items. Very few junglers can afford to not rush into their full jungle item due to needing the skirmisher or stalkers blade.

And you don’t have to grab pickaxe. Jaurim’s (I think that’s the name) is a really efficient item as well.

Also almost all juggernauts have massive ad scaling.

And you aren’t setting yourself behind. It’s still an insanely good item by itself. That’s like saying building zhonya’s on a mage is setting them behind.

Lovelle1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AwPH1zQs,comment-id=00070000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-29T00:36:44.972+0000)

The only juggernaut who consistently jungles is skarner. And jungle is a very different beast than laning when it comes to items. Very few junglers can afford to not rush into their full jungle item due to needing the skirmisher or stalkers blade.

And you don’t have to grab pickaxe. Jaurim’s (I think that’s the name) is a really efficient item as well.

Also almost all juggernauts have massive ad scaling.

And you aren’t setting yourself behind. It’s still an insanely good item by itself. That’s like saying building zhonya’s on a mage is setting them behind.

Guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree. Sterak's is a decent defensive item, but nowhere near as ridiculous as you're making it out to be. There are far more ridiculous champions and items in the game right now when it comes to things being overpowered and/or borderline useless. There are bigger problems.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AwPH1zQs,comment-id=0007000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-29T00:04:06.037+0000)

Agreed on the defensive itization part.

But it can be rushed. That’s the problem I find with it. This kind of hyper efficiency isn’t tolerated for any other items. I mean every other hyper efficient item has a restriction of some kind.

Seraphs embrace - takes a large amount of time to become good Mejais - insanely risky Rabadon’s - horrible first, second and even third item Infinty edge - requires another 5800 gold to become really good. Cinderhulk - strictly outclassed by steraks Guinsuu - arguably the most broken item in the game. Requires either in kit synergy or another item to become good.

Meanwhile there is steraks. What does this item need to be good? Basically just be melee so you can build it.

no one builds steraks gage as a first item. i havent seen anyone ever do that. the main reason, why you dont rush steraks is because you need levels to scale it up. this makes it never a good first option.

the earliest you build it is as a second item when youre stomping lane and have a high enough level advantage to afford it, which makes it fall into exactly the same category as the ones you posted.

item 3031 becomes efficient with any other crit item.

item 3089 becomes efficient with other ap items.

item 3053 becomes effective with a item 3078 or item 3071 first, simply because you want to be like level 11 before you build it, and other items to scale up the shield.

the nature of the base ad scaling on the damage part, and the bonus health scaling on the shield makes it a pretty shitty rush and more effective with levels and other health items first.

The thigh guy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AwPH1zQs,comment-id=00070000000000000001,timestamp=2019-03-29T10:18:25.717+0000)

no one builds steraks gage as a first item. i havent seen anyone ever do that. the main reason, why you dont rush steraks is because you need levels to scale it up. this makes it never a good first option.

the earliest you build it is as a second item when youre stomping lane and have a high enough level advantage to afford it, which makes it fall into exactly the same category as the ones you posted.

item 3031 becomes efficient with any other crit item.

item 3089 becomes efficient with other ap items.

item 3053 becomes effective with a item 3078 or item 3071 first, simply because you want to be like level 11 before you build it, and other items to scale up the shield.

the nature of the base ad scaling on the damage part, and the bonus health scaling on the shield makes it a pretty shitty rush and more effective with levels and other health items first.

Except steraks by itself is an efficient item. Those item before that are dog Shit without other items.

Tr4shB4NSYST3M2 votes

Yeah, as a melee carry/melee bruiser player who loves the item I've gotta admit it is probably a bit overtuned even after changing the ad it gives to bonus ad (removing the triforce synergy). Especially in this current meta of high burst and quick sloppy fights I cannot think of a single item in the game that feels better to build on any champ than Steraks feels on melee AD champs (i just wish i could justify building it on my boy Jayce lol).

Imo they could easily nerf the AD it gives to 40% of base AD and the champs that were building it would still build it just because of how well it fits in the current meta.

GayFluffyUnicorn3 votes

So you wanna nerf a dead classes item because they would still build it because they literally have no other item to build. Yeah sounds logic.

theChibiTina2 votes

So you're saying Vi, Riven, J4, Rek'sai, and Jax are all not viable because I'm pretty sure all those champs are considered strong right now and all are in that class + build that item. But yeah it's definitely a dead class. Also nothing else to buy? Black Cleaver, Titanic Hydra, Spear of Shojin, Trinity Force, Death's Dance, Ravenous Hydra, Mercurial Scimitar, Guardian Angel, etc are all very viable items.

Edit: also no one is asking for it to be gutted. Just not be overtuned where it's practically a mandatory pick.

Mordepool3 votes

The class its intended for is Juggernauts ----> a Dead sub Class.

Its meant to be a Juggernaut item 1st

fighter item 2nd. Right now thats reversed.

theChibiTina1 votes

It's a bruiser item. Both are subclasses. Yorick and Illoai are doing okay. I'd include Nasus, but people are building AP on him right now. Garen and Darius are just weak because Darius is overnerfed and Garen becomes a problem in low elo if he's strong. Shyvana is not doing well because farming junglers have no place in the meta right now (but people build AP on her anyway). Aatrox is overnerfed because he becomes a problem in proplay.

Mordepool1 votes

https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-516-notes

Scroll down to the Juggernaut Itemization section.

The item is supposed to be less effective on non-juggernauts but that has NOT been the case since they changed it to Bonus AD. Turns out a Massive shield when you finally lock down the slippery lee/irelia is More effective for thier Survivability. Compared to when the Juggernaut who just got chain cc'd ( Despite the useless Tenacity) dies as they Easily Blow through the shield. Because the Juggernaut won't avoid any follow up damage.

They should show on the item how much damage it has blocked and how many times it was proc's and eaten completely.

theChibiTina1 votes

Most of the items listed in that are doing just fine (as is Skarner whom I failed to mention before) and that is season 5 patch notes. Things change and now a lot of those items are being used by fighters who are as durable and put out damage as good as juggernauts, but also have mobility. Titanic, Deadman's, and spirit visage are all good items. Just because a class is weak (although it's more like some members of the class as I listed several that are doing fine already), doesn't mean the items are weak. Maybe it just means those champs are weak and need to be looked at (although I gave reasons for why most of them are that way where Darius was the only one that might need slight buffs). The fact stands that the item is strong and needs a small nerf.

Mordepool1 votes

Learn to read, i never claimed the items were WEAK. I claimed they Benefit Non- Juggernauts BETTER than Juggernauts and that Needs to change. Why is everyone so dense to this simple Fact.

theChibiTina1 votes

Only because some juggernauts are weak or just don't fit the current meta. Mobility, CC, and damage which fighters do better because juggernauts are immobile is the current meta. The items are either fine or strong. Just some juggernauts themselves aren't. Juggernauts can use the items just fine if it weren't for the way the meta is. So maybe the class (or specific members of the class) needs a look at rather than the items not being effective for them. They don't work better on fighters. Fighters are just better than juggernauts.

Mordepool1 votes

And if Riot supported Juggernauts through itemization you might see a Meta where they are equivalent or better than divers.

Saying " its just the Meta " is a Lazy arguement riot helps shape the Meta at every patch and yet Juggernauts (barring rare moments) remain an under-valued and overall irrelevant class.

theChibiTina1 votes

In order for that they would need to make an item that gave a mobility spell active for gapclosing because that's one of their main problems. They don't have mobility and fighters do so fighters are better. The gapcloser is the issue. When everyone else has a way to keep them from running at them and bashing their face in or has mobility to get away, juggernauts can't be useful. That's why only a few juggernauts are viable and only just. Illoai, Nasus, Skarner, and Yorick are all strong, but only have average winrates. They end up just becoming split push monsters because they can 1v1 most champs dumb enough to get close to them (except maybe skarner) but don't have the gapcloser.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

because you have champions like MissFortune in this game who deal 3600 damage over 3 seconds in an aoe with a single ability, juggernauts arent mobile enough to dodge her e + r or gap close on her in time to interrupt, and somehow have to live though this shit.

The thigh guy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AwPH1zQs,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-03-28T20:18:20.580+0000)

because you have champions like MissFortune in this game who deal 3600 damage over 3 seconds in an aoe with a single ability, juggernauts arent mobile enough to dodge her e + r or gap close on her in time to interrupt, and somehow have to live though this shit.

Resistances Hard cc Any displacement Don’t face tank it Don’t clump up with your team

Miss fortune is hardly a reason for this item to be this grossly over stated.

Critmaster Garen4 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AwPH1zQs,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2019-03-28T21:16:32.909+0000)

Don’t face tank it

some champions literally have no choice about this. mf presses e and r from a distance and you just eat the entire ult.

what are melee champions without mobility tools and with giant hitboxes supposed to do in this case? theyre slowed while stuck in a ranged aoe. even garens slow cleanse doesnt help when the e just instantly reapplies it.

thats the entire purpose of steraks gage. juggernauts dont have the tools to react to a lot of aoe abilities, so their only option is infact to facetank these abilities.

same for ults like Vladimir Neeko Swain Kennen Velkoz Brand etc.

if you want to participate in a teamfight with a juggernaut, you have to get close to the enemy. that also means these champions cant just win against juggers every single time by pressing r in those cases.

now you would have an argument in cases like Jax Fiora Irelia building steraks gage, because these champions already have kit inbuilt tools to react to teamfight aoe. but thats a result of riot changing steraks to grant bonus ad from a base ad increase and is an entirely different problem.

The thigh guy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AwPH1zQs,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2019-03-28T21:29:55.867+0000)

some champions literally have no choice about this. mf presses e and r from a distance and you just eat the entire ult.

what are melee champions without mobility tools and with giant hitboxes supposed to do in this case? theyre slowed while stuck in a ranged aoe. even garens slow cleanse doesnt help when the e just instantly reapplies it.

thats the entire purpose of steraks gage. juggernauts dont have the tools to react to a lot of aoe abilities, so their only option is infact to facetank these abilities.

same for ults like Vladimir Neeko Swain Kennen Velkoz Brand etc.

if you want to participate in a teamfight with a juggernaut, you have to get close to the enemy. that also means these champions cant just win against juggers every single time by pressing r in those cases.

now you would have an argument in cases like Jax Fiora Irelia building steraks gage, because these champions already have kit inbuilt tools to react to teamfight aoe. but thats a result of riot changing steraks to grant bonus ad from a base ad increase and is an entirely different problem.

You see. That’s when resistances come into play. I hate to tell you, but mf only does that damage building crit. Now let’s assume she built 4 crit items to hit 100% crit. That damage is going to be nuked down with just Randuins omen.

I can gaurentee on your example of garen into mf, if you build a randuins omen, and slap your w button, that ult will hardly tickle you.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AwPH1zQs,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-28T21:53:59.112+0000)

You see. That’s when resistances come into play. I hate to tell you, but mf only does that damage building crit. Now let’s assume she built 4 crit items to hit 100% crit. That damage is going to be nuked down with just Randuins omen.

she does 3600 damage on either a crit build or a lethality build with cleaver.

i tested both cases in a practise game.

The thigh guy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AwPH1zQs,comment-id=00050000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-28T21:55:09.728+0000)

she does 3600 damage on either a crit build or a lethality build with cleaver.

i tested both cases in a practise game.

Okay? Her raw damage before resistances and any damage reduction is applied can break 3600. It’s not true damage. So let assume you have 200 armor. Not a crazy amount especially on garen (your example)

So. Miss fortune presses r. You react by pressing w as you should.

70% of 3600 is 2520

Now armor come into play. Damage reduction with 200 armor 67%

33% of 2520 is 933 rounding.

Considering at this point you have 3-4K hp. That high impact ultimate doesn’t even pop your steraks.

Critmaster Garen4 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AwPH1zQs,comment-id=000500000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-28T22:10:24.256+0000)

Okay? Her raw damage before resistances and any damage reduction is applied can break 3600. It’s not true damage. So let assume you have 200 armor. Not a crazy amount especially on garen (your example)

So. Miss fortune presses r. You react by pressing w as you should.

70% of 3600 is 2520

Now armor come into play. Damage reduction with 200 armor 67%

33% of 2520 is 933 rounding.

Considering at this point you have 3-4K hp. That high impact ultimate doesn’t even pop your steraks.

now remove 24% plus lethality from that 200 armor and do the calculation again. maybe she even has a dominiks and damage amping runes.

point is, its a shitload of damage off a single ability from a single champion. in a teamfight, this is not the only damage youre going to eat on a juggernaut. you just have to have a way to live through all of this.

and garen is a special case even as far as juggernauts go. the others dont have % dr and high resistances available. someone like darius or illaoi would just blow up to mf alone.

how are juggers supposed to survive their own win condition if they dont have items like steraks available?

The thigh guy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AwPH1zQs,comment-id=0005000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-28T22:19:27.404+0000)

now remove 24% plus lethality from that 200 armor and do the calculation again. maybe she even has a dominiks and damage amping runes.

point is, its a shitload of damage off a single ability from a single champion. in a teamfight, this is not the only damage youre going to eat on a juggernaut.

Okay? So you’re saying that no one on your team has any hard cc to lock her down, now that we are mixing team comp into this? If that’s the case you shouldn’t have chosen a juggernaut.

And this would be easily calculated into the 200 armor seeing as you would also be full build and actually have closer to 300 armor.

Critmaster Garen3 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AwPH1zQs,comment-id=00050000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-28T22:23:10.294+0000)

Okay? So you’re saying that no one on your team has any hard cc to lock her down, now that we are mixing team comp into this? If that’s the case you shouldn’t have chosen a juggernaut.

And this would be easily calculated into the 200 armor seeing as you would also be full build and actually have closer to 300 armor.

im not mixing teamcomp into it. its literally just her item build.

a single champion who can cut through a juggernauts health bar with a single ability.

now imagine its not garen, but darius or illaoi or another juggernaut whos not literally the most burst resistant of the class. now lets bring teamcomp into it and imagine the enemy team has another one or two champions with aoe abilities in their teamcomp. juggers couldnt survive their own win condition without items like steraks.

id understand the frustration when champions like Camille Irelia Jax Fiora Yasuo buy the item and not only have a lot of evasive tools but burst resistance on top of it despite that being somewhat susceptible to burst is supposed to be a weakness of them.

but youre still arguing that juggernauts shouldnt have the item, which is crazy in a world where mf and velkoz exist and would just 1 shot them with their ults.

The thigh guy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AwPH1zQs,comment-id=000500000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-28T22:26:01.102+0000)

im not mixing teamcomp into it. its literally just her item build.

a single champion who can cut through a juggernauts health bar with a single ability.

now imagine its not garen, but darius or illaoi or another juggernaut whos not literally the most burst resistant of the class. they couldnt survive their own win condition without items like steraks.

id understand the frustration when champions like Camille Irelia Jax Fiora Yasuo buy the item and not only have a lot of evasive tools but burst resistance on top of it despite being weak to burst.

but youre still arguing that juggernauts shouldnt have the item, which is crazy in a world where mf and velkoz exist and would just 1 shot them with their ults.

You did bring team comp into it. “That’s not the only damage you’re going to take as a jugg” when she presses r she is essentially self cced. So that’s the only damage she is outputting.

And again. 900 damage against a 4000hp target while building full damage is hardly what I’d call cutting through someone’s health bar.

Darius has an interrupt. He could easily stop her channel at wave 6 even if slowed by her e. And sure. I’ll give you Illaoi. But even she can get in onto her during her ult channel thanks to the heal on w and the small dash on her w.

And not once did I say anyone shouldn’t have it. I’m saying it shouldn’t be the literal perfect item in nearly every way.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AwPH1zQs,comment-id=0005000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-28T22:32:30.977+0000)

And again. 900 damage against a 4000hp target while building full damage is hardly what I’d call cutting through someone’s health bar.

again. its going to be more than 900 damage if were not pretending every juggernaut happens to be a fully stacked 300 armor garen with his w activated.

Darius will have around 4000 health and 200 armor before her armor reduction. and he wont be able to cut 30% off the ability.

neither will almost every other juggernaut. this one ability would just murder the shit out of champions like him, with no feasable way to react to it, other than flashing.

and what about champions like Velkoz who just straight up deal true damage? his w and resistances dont save garen either in that case.

The thigh guy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AwPH1zQs,comment-id=00050000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-28T22:36:00.136+0000)

again. its going to be more than 900 damage if were not pretending every juggernaut happens to be a fully stacked 300 armor garen with his w activated.

Darius will have around 4000 health and 200 armor before her armor reduction. and he wont be able to cut 30% off the ability.

neither will almost every other juggernaut. this one ability would just murder the shit out of champions like him, with no feasable way to react to it, other than flashing.

and what about champions like Velkoz who just straight up deal true damage? his w and resistances dont save garen either in that case.

Again. Darius ain’t be eating the entire ult. He has an interupt in his kit, at most she will get off 6 waves out of 18. Do 500 damage, then get crushed because she is in melee with a Darius.

Vel’koz is decided entirely by you, everything he does is heavily telegraphed. Outside of being chain cced, if you ever get hit by 3 of his abilities for him to proc his true damage, that’s entirely on you.

Critmaster Garen3 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AwPH1zQs,comment-id=000500000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-28T22:46:23.713+0000)

Again. Darius ain’t be eating the entire ult. He has an interupt in his kit

make it rain range: 1000 target range, 200 effect radius

bullet time effect radius: 1400 range

darius pull range is 400. yea, no. she has enough room to cast the ability without darius making it over there into pull range before the 3 second channel is though, when he has to get through the 60% aoe slow.

Vel’koz is decided entirely by you, everything he does is heavily telegraphed. Outside of being chain cced, if you ever get hit by 3 of his abilities for him to proc his true damage, that’s entirely on you.

his r isnt telegraphed. he presses it on you and youre slowed while taking damage.

even in case of his other abilities, juggernauts are easy targets with their large hitboxes and slow movement.

The thigh guy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AwPH1zQs,comment-id=0005000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-28T22:57:14.962+0000)

make it rain range: 1000 target range, 200 effect radius

bullet time effect radius: 1400 range

darius pull range is 400. yea, no. she has enough room to cast the ability without darius making it over there into pull range before the 3 second channel is though, when he has to get through the 60% aoe slow.

his r isnt telegraphed. he presses it on you and youre slowed while taking damage.

even in case of his other abilities, juggernauts are easy targets with their large hitboxes and slow movement.

Max range mf ult is 1400. If you are between 1000 and 1400 getting out will take you less than 3 waves. 900 range means you have to move the same distance forward to get into pull range to stop her ult. So 3 waves. Even when slowed 500 units is not that far.

So no matter what, Darius can either cancel her channel or make it out before taking even close to lethal damage.

As for vel’koz. No vel’koz is blindly ulting someone with no stacks. It would take 1.5 seconds to get his passive off with his ult from 0, that leaves 1.5 seconds of true damage if that. He’s not 100/0 anyone with just his r unless he is absurdly fed.

Mordepool3 votes

Why ever choose a juggernaut? All of a sudden Juggernauts arent allowed as a Viable Class just because some ADC main says so?

Naw your just salty we even have a fighting chance with an inherit disadvantage.

The item could use changes to bring it back to Just Juggernauts sure. Other than that the item is fine

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

Why ever choose a juggernaut? All of a sudden Juggernauts arent allowed as a Viable Class just because some ADC main says so?

Naw your just salty we even have a fighting chance with an inherit disadvantage.

The item could use changes to bring it back to Just Juggernauts sure. Other than that the item is fine

I’m not even an adc main? I actually play jungle kayn soooooo?

As for what you took out of context I’ll ise an example. If I pick jinx mid for some ungodly reason into a talon, and the talon shits on me, it’s my own fault. Why should juggernauts be any different?

Mordepool2 votes

They aren't,obviously. They get countered by Marksmen even with the current Steraks Gage.

The item gives Juggs a Chance at winning an unfair fight. Just like GA does for marksmen against assassins.

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

They aren't,obviously. They get countered by Marksmen even with the current Steraks Gage.

The item gives Juggs a Chance at winning an unfair fight. Just like GA does for marksmen against assassins.

What are you even talking about?

If a jugg ever gets on any other champion by the way, they almost auto win that fight. So you want to auto win fights in melee and have an easy time getting into melee? The fuq?

Mordepool2 votes

By your logic just the fact that Marksmen are picked in over 96% of all games means you should never pick a Juggernaut.

Thats insane. ALL carry classes should have a chance at viability.

"If a juggernaut ever gets on any other champion by the way, they almost auto win that fight."

1v1 maybe if the enemy plays poorly.

"So you want to auto win fights in melee and have an easy time getting into melee? The fuq?"

I recommend you don't try and put words in my mouth, especially disingenuous one's such as those above.

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

By your logic just the fact that Marksmen are picked in over 96% of all games means you should never pick a Juggernaut.

Thats insane. ALL carry classes should have a chance at viability.

1v1 maybe if the enemy plays poorly.

I recommend you don't try and put words in my mouth, especially disingenuous one's such as those above.

You just put words in my mouth. No. What I said was, if you see your team has no cc, and the enemy team has stuff that needs to be interrupted, and you chose to pick something with no cc. It is your fault.

And yes. All classes to have a chance at viability, in the correct situations. If I pick mid jinx into a talon and proceed to get actually raped by him, who’s fault is it?

It’s not even if they played poorly. If you get into melee with a juggernaut, you lose that fight. It’s not a question. Unless you are absurdly fed, you lose.

And I didn’t put any words into your mouth. I summerized what you states before hand. A juggernauts main counterplay is their lack of range and mobility making them kiteable. If you remove that weakness and give them easy access to anyone they want, suddenly you have the only playable class in the game.

hiyares1 votes

the issue i have withthe item is how ir procs........ i have noticed that the item states it will proc after a certain damage amount is hit within a time limit but with chogath it procs on the animation of chogath ult negating it instead of proccing after the damage is dealt.

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