Making Zephyr a better item - killing 2 birds with one stone

Saixos·Mar 27, 2015·33 votes·2,936 views

is currently mainly used as a replacement for boots.

Following a discussion on these forums, the idea came to me to give the item a passive like wits end, except with movespeed instead of magic resistance. This would also allow for the build path of zephyr to be adjusted to replace the pickaxe with a phage, giving it a cleaner build path along with providing an alternative build path for phage rather than forcing everyone down the triforce route.

Obviously numbers would need to be adjusted to accomodate this change.

48 Comments

Only Play DariusMar 27, 201515 votes

Hecarim

KwangoTangoMar 27, 20155 votes

[deleted]

Ancestor007Mar 27, 20152 votes

Movespeed ftw

VenowolfApr 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

We've done a lot of Mallet experimentation - but the result keeps coming back to - Why is this item in the game - whenever it's not fringe, the game sucks. We're more inclined to delete the item entirely at this point. The basic question is - Is Frozen Mallet essential to the game functioning well?

And it seems to be no, at this point.

Frozen Mallet doesn't really seem to help any combat cases we're happy with - nor does it seem to invite interesting gameplay when it works.

The main problem with Frozen Mallet is basically the concept of an on-hit slow and the idea that it's somehow supposed to help fighters or ranged characters.

At its core, there's a lot of interesting design space we could put on fighters or ranged characters - but Frozen Mallet doesn't help any of those patterns when it's good. It simply flattens all the patterns down to 'land one basic attack.'

It's not the permaslow - or the stats really. There's a richness in how ranged vs. melee fight each other and how they position against each other but Frozen Mallet, whenever it's been good basically tells people that a single basic attack should be what defines that pattern.

Now, I'm not saying that there aren't numbers or mechanics that you could do to make the current Frozen Mallet work. It's just, the gains really wouldn't be worth the costs in the end - You'd have a cool item at the expense of a lot of other things. This isn't a question of viability or whether or not we can make it attractive. All that is really simple to do. It's whether or not it's worth it and I'm not really sure at this point.

So this means that Frozen Mallet will be delete in a near future. So a MS steal stack can be implement on Zephyr.

GaleWinUnleashedMar 27, 201510 votes

A problem with passively stealing movespeed is that you get something like Frozen Mallet; it would be incredibly toxic if it was viable.

Ace Access Mar 27, 201510 votes

does this fit the description ?

Kalista "I approve of this"

Veigar "no additions slows for you, you toxic broken ghost girl thingy you"

Twitch "I'm here representing the Anti-Kalista labor union, we will make sure you don't get anything you want"

Aatrox "I'm against Kalista getting any more power, I'm all for war but she is just too dangerous right now"

Pantheon "calm down guys because I baked us all some cookies"

Aatrox "bring me some tea to go with those cookies will ya"

Tristana "oooooh I want a cookie"

KogMaw "cookies belong to Kog'mow" "nom nom nom"

Aatrox "SPIT IT OUT KOG'MOW SPIT IT OUT!, my sword is NOT a COOKIE!!!"

Pantheon "there's only one cookie left guys...... (this ain't gonna end well)"

Garen "the Might of Demacia shall have that last cookie!"

Ayame IsakiMar 27, 20156 votes

Garen "Wait, where did it go?" Evelynn "That may have been bad, but it tasted good!"

SaixosMar 27, 20154 votes

Kalista is a champion I used to play extremely frequently, and I can say that I would probably not get Zephyr on her even with this change. While the base stats are nice, they're unnecessary to add on top of zerkers/pd/runaans/bork/shiv/whatever mix you choose. The main advantage zephyr has over those items is the additional movement speed, the CD wouldn't be noticed much due to the e reset, and while tenacity is nice it's rare that I would get this just for the tenacity.

Kalista doesn't scale with her own movement speed, so zephyr doesn't work as well on her, and a movement speed steal of maybe 20-30 movement speed wouldn't have enough significance to make this item worthwhile.

SaixosMar 27, 20151 votes

I have to say that I think it can work, if it's done correctly. The hard part is finding the fine line between how much movement speed is stolen and how much is given. For example, the numbers I've come up with in my head is 5 times stacking 6 base movespeed steal for ranged champions, and double that for melee champions. That would be 30 movespeed steal VS 60 movespeed steal, except the champion needs to stick for a while in order for it to work. The things would be:

a) Multiple autoattacks are needed in order to get the max movespeed steal, so the slow applies over time as combat goes on instead of instantly, making escaping easier.

b) The stolen movespeed is flat, and melee champions get more movespeed stolen than ranged champions. This means that the item can be countered by movespeed increases quite effectively. For example, talisman, alacrity enchantment, etc. It's able to be countered via abilities and builds.

I think the main reason it can be toxic is if it prevents both escapes and chases, but this has less of an overall effect than red buff when it comes to slowing the enemy. The thing is that it increases your movement speed while decreasing your enemies, so overall the movement speed difference is significant once it's ramped up, but the enemies movespeed isn't slowed to the point where dodging skillshots/positioning is impossible.

Zengar25Mar 27, 20155 votes

I honestly rarely see item 3172 getting used at all, so this change might make it better, I kinda don't really like how it's been used as a replacement for boots for some reason though.

SaixosMar 27, 20155 votes

It's used for boots because it gives nearly the same stats but gives a bunch of other stats which are all really useful for ADCs. It just lacks any core stats/enough power to make it worthwhile getting beforehand with its cost. With this my expectations would be that it is used for champions who need to stick to their enemies quite a lot, and can be taken fairly early on as an item because of that. Udyr and WW for example.

dalphy08Mar 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I honestly rarely see getting used at all, so this change might make it better, I kinda don't really like how it's been used as a replacement for boots for some reason though.

Oh that's because the people generally don't know how to play. It DEFINETLY has NOT been a replacement for boots back in the day. Maybe that's a new thing. Cool concept, but it's not JUST that (not just a boot replacement)!

ThryaleMar 27, 20151 votes

the core issue here is, despite being already overloaded with stats, it just isn't favored due to how insanely reliant most adc's are on crit dmg in order to be relevant in the late game.

BârdMar 27, 20155 votes

Hecarim

Look at my horse, my horse is amazing

Ace Access Mar 27, 20152 votes

you are a horse, a horse human ghost hybrid thingy but a horse nonetheless

zangagerMar 27, 20152 votes

item 3172 Is actually a good item on any Tryndamere build as it is, since it gives him great stats all around, and since many 's build item 3006 for boots, and get instead of item 3111 for tenacity.

Meeks011Mar 27, 20152 votes

Nah it's fine, I stack 3 Zephyrs as Hecarim all the time.

junglerboy16Mar 27, 20152 votes

Only reason I'd say please never add phage to this item is that it would have a unique passive that wouldn't stack with Trinity force, basically crippling its effectiveness for champions who use it regularly (Udyr, Hecarim, and co.) because Riot would have to either increase the cost, decrease the damage, or decrease the % MS it gives, which are not good things for anyone who ever build Trinity force.

TotalJerkMar 27, 20152 votes

Zephyr is already REALLY good on champions that benefit from all of its stats. Buffing it any more would be a bad idea. Could you imagine what a Runaan's buff would do to Kayle Kalista Jinx Teemo ?

Celeste BenalMar 27, 20151 votes

If you are building Runaan's on Jinx, you are doing it wrong. It does nothing for her that she doesn't already get from Fishbones and item 3087 or item 3046 . Mana is not an issue by the time you would complete Runaan's.

Perhaps you meant to write Zephyr again? But then why are you building Zephyr on any of the other champs?

TotalJerkMar 27, 20151 votes

Runaan's Jinx is a situational build. It gives her full stacks on Pow Pow and procs the AoE explosion on the extra Runaan's bolts as well as the rocket. If Runaan's was any better it would be OP as fuck core on Jinx.

[{quoted}](name=Celeste Benal,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AsiuVov7,comment-id=000e0000,timestamp=2015-03-27T17:13:00.167+0000)

Mana is not an issue by the time you would complete Runaan's.

Runaan's doesn't give mana, you're talking about Essence Reaver.

Drunk RummateMar 27, 20152 votes

The real question here, is which two birds are in danger? Anivia Azir Quinn Swain

SouL1essMar 27, 20152 votes

...probably shouldn't passively steal MS.

Gaining flat bonus that can stack beyond the power of phage passive seems better.

RetroRage96Mar 27, 20151 votes

I like it.

Reformed DunniMar 27, 20151 votes

Nice! sounds good

Daedalus871Mar 27, 20151 votes

And that's how you make immobile melees completely unviable.

SaixosMar 27, 20152 votes

Unviable, or more viable due to having access to an item which lets them become more mobile while making their enemies less mobile? o:

Daedalus871Mar 27, 20155 votes

Unviable as you're pretty much giving every adc a Ashe Q + Furor Boots.

PoisonedPeaceMar 27, 20151 votes

This is what I was thinking lol.

Imagine using it with triforce, FM, and furor boots? Enemy might as well just be stunned.

Leti the YetiMar 27, 20153 votes

item 3085 gotta steal from 3 peeple 4 more speed item 3252 item 3022 item 3078 hypothetical MS stealing item 3172 kitemaster kalista!

j jMar 28, 20151 votes

Frozen mallet was supposed to be removed lol what happen to that? xyph had some big post on it a year or two ago.

VenowolfApr 16, 20151 votes

Frozen Mallet removed with this changes and can be viable!

SaixosMar 27, 20151 votes

I would honestly still not get this item until later on on the majority of ADCs. It would mainly be used on champions which are very immobile or who can make use of all the stats. For most adcs such as caitlyn, sivir, and ezreal there is no way that I would ever get this item. The following are the adcs where I would perhaps get this:

Ashe Scales well with her q, and she could really use the added mobility. Is somewhat less viable than other ADCs, so I think it'd help ashe get more viable/popular. Jinx On occasion, not too often. She works better if built the standard route IMO, but in certain situations I would get it on her. It'd be like the choice between BT and Bork, BT most of the time but Bork can be effective. KogMaw I'd definitely want it on koggy, and he could really put it to good use as it scales with everything. It'd help with his immobility situation. Twitch Helps him in a number of areas. Varus Faster w stacking, more movespeed to help immobility, good mix of stats. Vayne Possibly, can't really predict this one accurately. It'd be highly situational.

If you've noticed, all of the ones I've listed apart from Vayne are quite immobile ADCs, and immobile ADCs haven't been very viable for a while now, it would help them quite a lot.

I named 6 ms steal stacking 5x for range and 12 ms steal stacking 5x for melee above.

If you look at most relatively immobile melees, they usually have some kind of slow or speedup to close the gap if they lack a gapcloser. In that case, slow -> flat slow making slows more effective. Speed up->more speedup -> speed up more effective.

Daedalus871Mar 27, 20151 votes

If those are the only 5 you'd get it on, then you would be a bad ADC.

It would still give AD + CDR, so casterish carries are going to want it. It would probably be a second buy for them. It also gives AS, so the more AA oriented ones would want it as well. For these guys, it might more of a third buy.

Really the only ADC who might not want it would be Kalista, but when you consider fucking every melee ever, she would probably still get it.

You're 30 ms (using your numbers) isn't the only thing your getting, your also slowing them by 30 ms. So you created a 60 ms differential that the melee needs to overcome.

And this is ignoring the fact that the melees that could use it would be broken. Like Udyr. Suddenly he has an additional 120 ms over you. That's fucking huge. Even if you're ranged with this, it's going to be a 60 ms difference, which is still big.

And then there are the champs that can't really use it, such as mages, and since they are skillshot reliant, they are no longer relevant.

So ADC would be able to kite pretty much anything, melees that can't use it would be deleted, the melees that could would be broken, and the ranged champions that can't use it would be in a weird spot as well.

There is no way you can balance this item as you have it, regardless of how much ms it steals.

AsdeftMar 27, 20151 votes

Yes pls

IwfiKe3qjMMar 27, 20151 votes

50% AS (3rd highest - tied with Phantom Dancer) 10% Movespeed (highest percentage) 10% CDR Tenacity

those stats seems good...

the only problem IMO is mediocre AD (25 AD) and some stats that I feel didn't synergize with each other... maybe remove/change Pickaxe to better build path and stats...

DoFrMar 27, 20151 votes

OR keep it as it is, and add a Bonus Damage on it, instead of the 25 AD, one that can actually hit tower, you can say whatever you want, i personally think this is a slit-push item, it screams split-pushing, but it's AD is just way too pathetic, had it have an on-hit effect to make it synergies with it's Attackspeed and movement speed, but it doesn't, and i don't feel any form of power spike when i buy it.

Ace Access Mar 27, 20151 votes

sorry but NO, we have enough slows as it is and we don't need anymore right now

Electro522Mar 27, 20151 votes

Where did you read about a slow? Zephyr is all about buffing the move and attack speed of the champ. Yes, you can call it a slow, since your moving faster then everyone, but its still not a slow.

SolusInCadereMar 27, 20151 votes

The problem with this item is that the speed stats (AS and MS) are not as useful as they are plentiful. Items that give either of those in addition to the stats their wielders need will always be surperior, and this will be a niche buy for those few who can benifit from the stats the most, they are listed below in another comment.

Think about item 3153 , a common source of AS for ADCs. It also provides lifestseal and sticking ability via an active, not even mentioning its tank shredding passive.

Another source of tenacity would be nice though. They took it away from junglers, so the only real source is item 3111 treads.

Celeste BenalMar 27, 20151 votes

Honestly, all the Stinger build items need a rework. item 3101 builds into item 3115 , item 3172 , and item 3137 , which I think is not even available on SR.

The common theme between them is AS, CDR, a passive, and some random other stats. I think Zephyr really need to be better focused on either AD or movement. Its current flavor is really more of a movement-focused item with the %MS bonus and Tenacity, so it makes sense for it to stay that way. OP's movement theft idea fits that. But this makes it a must-have item for every ranged attacker. it would have to be greatly reduced or flat-out unavailable for ranged attackers. (Melee only?)

Before adding more stats, we have to decide what to remove. If you remove the %MS bonus, you're making the item strictly worse than it is now unless the total amount of MS theft were greater than the current bonus. Viable. But would it be balanced? Again, depends on whether its a percentage theft or a flat one, and how much per hit. At this point it would be a purely numerical balancing question for the PBE.

If you remove the Tenacity, well... you're taking away from the movement theme, as well as removing 1 of only 2 remaining Tenacity items in the game. Probably not the best idea.

Remove AD? No one builds Zephyr for the AD. That's just icing. They build it for MS+Tenacity. This could work.

If AD were removed, we would need to remove the item 1037 AD item from the formula and replace it with something else. AS+CDR come from Stinger and need to stay. The only viable low-tier movement items are boots or item 3113 . And if you use the latter, you will need to add 30 AP to the item to preserve the Aether Wisp stats. The gold value is almost identical to Pickaxe. But do we really need or want another AP+MS item when we already have Nashor's?

I think changing the MS% bonus to a theft mechanic is the best choice.

For Nashor's, I don't understand why it's CDR is a Unique Passive. This should be moved to a regular CDR stat. The AP doesn't bother me any. But 60 AP is not exactly exciting. And It's second passive requires 180 AP to do the same damage as item 3091 . The AA requirement offers little for champs that would build enough AP items to actually get that high. WE offers flat MR and an MR steal. NT costs 320 gold more than WE. WE is pretty much better in every way. But it does synergize nicely with item 3100 , as well as Spell and Blade Weaving masteries. Then again, so does WE.

btw, guess what Lich Bane is built from? Aether Wisp and Sheen. Hmm... what about building Nashor's from Stinger and Sheen, replacing the weak on-hit passive with Spellblade? An AS + Spellblade item with a moderate AP bonus could be good without being OP.

JedenVojakMar 27, 20151 votes

I thought the standard udyr build was something like item 3004 item 3078 item 3172 item 3009 though?

It's kind of a niche item but it has its place. Especially if you gotta go fast...

Tis a nice dayMar 27, 20151 votes

So a movespeed stealing item?

cFlameMar 27, 20151 votes

There is something I don't like, this empowers marksman who can already gain attack speed through abilities, or Kalista who builds attack speed. Meanwhile Varus and Ashe ......

FantasySniperMar 28, 20151 votes

Thresh Volibear Udyr Hecarim Shyvana all make fantastic use out of this item.

Need other boots more than you do Merc Treads? Grab Zephyr and get the best of both worlds along with some crazy good damage output from your everything.

VenowolfApr 16, 20151 votes

I really love this idea

But if you build on-hit stacked passive its better the new Recurve Bow. Now Phage its build on Black Cleaver and its Brutalizer that only have one final build path (Ghost Blade)

So why not put Brutalizer instead of Phage with the Recurve Bow?

item 3134 + item 1043 + 563g = item 3172 3000g