Marksman are not mandatory

saltran··21 votes·9,789 views

Marksmen are no longer mandatory, you can play with non adc on majority of the team composition.

But Bot lane is still treated as synonymous with ADC and ADC is still treated as synonymous with marksmen. Why?

Because what technically is called "botlane main" have been historically equal to "adc main" (remember that adc is a community term, Rito uses Marksman) and I can't speak for all of us but I can for myself: The reason why you are (maybe) angry about seeing most of your games marksmans on botlane is not that adcs are mandatory, the players that play botlane could play other champs like some mages/bruisers and have succes aswell so the reason why we still play mostly adcs is because we ENJOY playing adcs.

Do you want to play with non adc botlanes? Then YOU SHOULD PLAY IT, what happened? All the pro botlane diversity thought that we would just give up on the champs we've been playing for 7 years just because you don't want adcs on your game? No no, don't be fking hypocrite and if you want a non botlane adc play it yourself because I'm not playing that, I will keep playing adcs because I can choose between other champs or adcs and I choose the adcs.

Marksmen honestly don't need more nerfs to make other classes viable on bot lane because other classes are already viable there, you just need ppl that want to play those champs bot and I'm not one of them.

49 Comments

Athenes Lulu11 votes

It's like they expected ADC mains to magically stop playing ADCs.

It's Boards, we get people here thinking that just because certain posters don't like playing ADCs, "no one" enjoys it and expected all those ADC mains to switch entire champion pools overnight.

But better keep making dozens of threads demanding more nerfs because they're not completely gone from the game.

D357R0Y3R4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cancerous Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ar9i3x1p,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-07-01T08:17:47.026+0000)

It's like they expected ADC mains to magically stop playing ADCs.

you're funny but i would at least expect top tier picks to be diversifed instead of being 80% of adc and 20% of something else

Poop Jelly2 votes

?????????

Mizaya6 votes

Yeah there are picks like Heimer and Morg that are strong, but how many ADC mains really wanna play them bot lmao.

JESUSSAYSNO1 votes

Botlane=/=ADC. The sooner the playerbase realizes this, the better.

saltran3 votes

Too bad that the reallity is that botlane main = ADC main for all this years since playing other champs was troll picking and you would've get reported if you played other champs.

So now don't expect the adc mains to start playing mages because if they liked mages they would've been midlane mains in the first place, or top/jng with the bruisers.

Look I'm not against other classes being viable bot but I'm not playinf those champs because I don't enjoy playing them as I enjoy playing marksman.

DearPear1 votes

{quoted}

So now don't expect the adc mains to start playing mages because if they liked mages they would've been midlane mains in the first place, or top/jng with the bruisers. Look I'm not against other classes being viable bot but I'm not playinf those champs because I don't enjoy playing them as I enjoy playing marksman.

Good thing marksmen are still viable and you can pick them botlane all you want.

saltran1 votes

If you answer that I don't think that you understood my coment because I didn't said that Marksman are not viable.

DearPear1 votes

{quoted}

If you answer that I don't think that you understood my coment because I didn't said that Marksman are not viable.

I didn't say you said that.

Athenes Lulu1 votes

If people advocate this much for playing non-ADCs botlane, then they should be the ones doing it, instead of asking ADC mains to change champion pools overnight.

Chembaron Yamada7 votes

Same, if I get put in the bot lane position, I will always play a marksman. Doesn't matter what the meta tells me to do.

2Charmnot2Charm3 votes

I just want my Ashe and Jinx back riot [cass-cry]

afmghost2 votes

{quoted}

I just want my Ashe and Jinx back riot [cass-cry]

I suffer with you, fellow Jinx main hug

OtterlyLost3 votes

This pretty much is what I've been saying since day one. Of course ADCs are still the only thing played bot; it's what people who originally started playing bot wanted to play in the first goddamn place. I have no idea who this diversity was for in the first place because, honestly, if an ADC main wanted to play an assassin/mage/bruiser/tank, then they would be been playing any of the other lanes that these champions are viable in.

The fact that the role bot lane has been seeing a lowering of playrate just goes to show that ADC mains are abandoning it and either playing another lane or playing another game. Literally no one who plays bot lane wanted or needed diversity in the bot lane.

3TWarrior1 votes

it wasn't really that but that instead marksman could move out of bottom lane and not get nerfed while any class that decided to switch lanes and did well would instantly get nerfed, despite whether it was popular or even a difficult strategy to pull off

some players remember when you could play double mage bottom lane or other wild, imaginative combinations without prejudice

the other little tidbit is that marksman frequently break items meant for other classes, causing them to get nerfed instead of one of the recent changes of hybrid effects between marksman and melee

OtterlyLost3 votes

First of all, anything going bot beyond marksmen getting nerfed is inaccurate. Marksmen going anywhere other than bot and doing well does however get nerfed. Mid, top, and jungle are no no zones for traditional marksmen and the only ones that ever made it out of bot lane have either been designed for other lanes or were reworked for other lanes and even then, riot still nerfs them regularly. Kindred was specifically designed for the jungle and there was a hot minute where they regularly nerfed her over and over again until she was garbage. Graves got reworked and became a jungler as a result and still gets more nerfs than he does buffs. Quinn was reworked specifically for solo lanes and got nerfed not long after this and has received 0 changes. Corki recieved nerfs when he got to be good midlane until they gave up and changed his AAs to mostly magic; before that, they had nerfed him regularly.

Second of all, double mages have always been viable and this is still accurate to this day and honestly, if it doesn't catch on, it will need a nerf because it's more oppressive than any melee or ranged bot lane ever could be. As someone who plays bot lane regularly I have faced that strat and it is awful as a marksmen; you cant CS unless you're a god and can dodge 20 skillshots. It'd have to be worse for a melee carry. Not only that but mages bot lane at any point in time have been an extreme pain point as they are nearly always considered exceptionally oppressive and tend to kill off any diversity that there might be.

Thirdly, breaking items intended for other classes is not a trait specific to marksmen; marksmen are just the class that catches the most flack. Remember mages like Cassiopeia taking the new Abyssal mask(intended for tanks) and using it to still do huge damage while being completely unkillable for her AP laner? Or talon stacking and abusing black cleavers when cleavers were intended for fighters? Or how about champions like wukong, who is a fighter, taking assassin items to do massive damage? That still hasn't been nerfed or fixed. Or rengar using the ADC items IE/Stormrazor to do more damage? Or yi or fighters taking new ER and abusing it?

Marksmen are not the only class that abuse and use other classes items. They're just the one that catches the most flack, which is ridiculous because they're the class with the least item diversity.

And finally, my point is still not changed. Many people who started to play bot did so to play marksmen. Trying to force people like me to play other things just for diversities sake is just gonna piss me off.

3TWarrior1 votes

they aren't forcing you to play anything, they just haven't adjusted other things yet so "crit" marksman are now weaker than most marksman. Have you tried adjusting to make a build that is more defensive instead of going full glass cannon with crit? as others have been quick to point out, marksmen still make up 80% of the roster for bottom lane

let me tell you, marksman ruled the meta for years and even when they weren't the best pick they were still mandatory by meta standards... Vayne killing you in an instant because her damage is faster than your crowd control? it was perfectly okay in season 5 where when they TRANSITIONED to the marksman update in season six, they actually made it WORSE

marksmen problems were highlighted the most when people figured out that burst damage comps could instantly delete the opposing carries and so Miss Fortune rose to the top of the ban list then and off-meta compositions became quite frequent because it was delete or be deleted

I can't give any objective data, but back when mages were common as a dual lane, damage was actually much lower and a good marksman and support could either outscale them (as they are supposed to), go even with them in lane, or even beat them in lane because of the marksman's mage-like kits and independence from their abilities

it was still more fun then though because you could feel like you were doing something with the mage composition. The only mages who probably ever gave marksmen trouble back then were Brand, Cassiopeia and Victor, because they have the tools to punish medium range engages

heck, i'm a generalist and I love playing marksmen and support, but thing is, I actually started playing more as support because I was free to change up the meta (not true for marksman players in most instances...) and most of all, my position wasn't Feast or Famine

yeah, it felt awesome to go on a rampage with a score of 22/X as a marksman because I got an early lead...it also felt AWFUL for anyone playing against it because marksman had enough power to duel anything but an assassin, win and then sweep any leftovers away, and even that changed recently

I'm not saying the changes were appropriate, heck, it'd probably be best (that is, if they do nothing about the other classes) if they reduced the gold setback by about 200 or so total, maybe even just 200 from Static Shiv because it is always the marksman go to item unless they're an attack speed focused champion like Tristana

OtterlyLost1 votes

They arent forcing me to play anything you're right; that's why I'm barely playing. I have tried building more defensive, such as rushing BT, but the fantasy of an ADC is getting to do massive amounts of damage from range through kiting and good positioning. Not to do marginal amounts of damage while being slightly tankier than usual but still getting instantly gibbed. And as I have pointed out to others who seem to lack the comprehensional skills or understanding, the reason that ADCs are still making up 80% of the picks isn't because they feel rewarding or good to play but because the people who play bot lane started playing it because they wanted to play ADCs. Of course they're going to continue to pick the last few marksmen that feel good to play and feel rewarding to play; they are marksmen mains and it's the only lane by which you can play the marksmen class.

Its comparable to mage mains saying mages feel bad but mages still make up a big chunk of the champions who go mid; that is the class that they want to play.

So once again, for everyone...

#pick rate does not equate viability nor does it indicate that a class is good or feels enjoyable.

Marksmen have also not dominated or controlled the meta for years. They have been there for every meta but so has every other class. In season 5, I feel is when they were in their best position, with the champions in it actually having agency and control over their own games. Mid and jungle have consistently over the years decided the tides of the game, more so than ADCs ever have.

3TWarrior1 votes

blood thirster is expensive, is not really a defensive item with high AD and life steal as its only benefits other than pure health as a shield. You could get the beginnings of one, but it is not an optimal first pick except on some of the niche marksmen like draven

I meant options more like guardian angel, blade of the ruined king (though this would be a bit of a hybrid but is effective for its cost), wit's end, death's dance, phantom dancer

static shiv is still pretty cheap and adds some free burst damage even as part of its build path

I preferred runaan's when it was still 70% attack speed, but it helps to spread your dps around

OtterlyLost1 votes

They lowered the cost of BT substantially. Life steal is a defensive stat; that's why nasus has it as his passive. It's intended to help with hard lanes. BT is 80 AD and 20% lifesteal for only 3200; you can get a zeal right after for 1300 gold. It's a cheaper, more relevant powerspike than stormrazor is and life steal is something you'd buy anyway.

In comparison, bork gives less AD and less life steal and is only relevant damage if the enemy team has exceptionally health oriented champions.

BT is as close to a defensive item that an AD has without completely tossing out the fantasy of being long range, kiting heavy damage source and I had multiple games where I did very well on tristana with a BT rush. I cannot say the same with storm razor or bork.

Also bork is less defensive than BT.

As for your other suggestions, rushing a GA is a waste of stats as you wont do damage with only 40 AD and a bit of armor, especially after after the passive pops; it loses massive amounts of gold efficiency after that.

If bloodthirster in your mind doesn't work as a first item, I have no idea why you think Death's dance does. It could work but I feel like it only works on certain ADs, more so than BT who can actually work on every one.

Wits end is only AS and provides minimal amounts of damage. It only ramps up in damage after you have other on hit items to go with it.

Phantom dance literally provides no offensive stats.

If you have to build an ADC without damage early, you might as well not play an ADC. The games are far too short and building defensively is just putting yourself in a negative gold trough because you wont get kills to make up the difference because you dont do damage and even if you farm perfectly, it will take forever for you to now get an offensive item.

If you need a defensive item early, the only one I would consider viable is BT as it gives you a ton of AD and you can quickly and easily get AS.

3TWarrior1 votes

the website lists it as 3500 also, if it's 3200, that is waaay gold efficient : just by gold value alone it's underpriced 80 AD = 2600 ; 20 lifesteal = 800 , 350 health = over 800

that would place the item at 4200 max level or 3533 if you got it at level 1 by some strange twist of fate...

compare that to shiv though and it's 300 less at minimum for its burst you won't get with bloodthirst and some crit chance and AOE damage

BORK is 3200 and offers roughly the same dps or more if you use its active

wit's end is incredibly cheap at 2400 and 40 MR minimum will keep magic damage at bay while offering 42 magic damage and 40% attack speed

item 3026 guardian angel offers 45 AD and 40 armor while also increasing your health value by 50% for a price CHEAPER than static shiv or bloodthirster

ankoanko193 votes

But why should marksmen be mandatory? That is not what you've answered. Why is it okay for a certain role to be off meta but not marksmen?

OtterlyLost10 votes

Why is it okay for an entire class of champions to suddenly not be viable in the only lane they can play in? Why is it okay for people who don't play bot lane to decide what should be in botlane? Why is it okay to expect marksmen players to suddenly stop playing the champions they enjoy because you dislike this idea or notion that they are mandatory when they aren't? Why should traditional crit marksmen only be allowed one lane while mages/bruisers/tanks/assassins suddenly demand the entire map be accessible to them? Why should traditional crit marksmen be expected to only be able to go to a duo lane while every other class of champion has accessible off lanes, such as Mages going top or, now, bot or bruisers going mid, top, and jungle?

Better question is how and in what way have they ever been mandatory? No one ever told people they couldn't go bot with whatever the hell they wanted to? Just because pros don't do it doesn't mean that people in soloqueue are not inherently not allowed to. Or why is it that now, when everything else is now viable bot lane and many marksmen have been gutted, are people still preferring to take marksmen over mages, which have a consistently higher win rate? Where are all the people who called for "diversity?" Its certainly, at this point, not the marksmen's fault as winrates clearly show that battle mages like Swain are better in a duo lane. So where are the people who demanded diversity? Because it clearly wasn't the people who actually played botlane, otherwise the lane wouldn't have dropped in play rate from the end of season 7 to now. Globally bot lane is the least played role in the game. Support is even beating it out. So where are the people who wanted this "diversity?"

ankoanko194 votes

{quoted}

Why is it okay for an entire class of champions to suddenly not be viable in the only lane they can play in? Why is it okay for people who don't play bot lane to decide what should be in botlane? Why is it okay to expect marksmen players to suddenly stop playing the champions they enjoy because you dislike this idea or notion that they are mandatory when they aren't? Why should traditional crit marksmen only be allowed one lane while mages/bruisers/tanks/assassins suddenly demand the entire map be accessible to them? Why should traditional crit marksmen be expected to only be able to go to a duo lane while every other class of champion has accessible off lanes, such as Mages going top or, now, bot or bruisers going mid, top, and jungle?

Better question is how and in what way have they ever been mandatory? No one ever told people they couldn't go bot with whatever the hell they wanted to? Just because pros don't do it doesn't mean that people in soloqueue are not inherently not allowed to. Or why is it that now, when everything else is now viable bot lane and many marksmen have been gutted, are people still preferring to take marksmen over mages, which have a consistently higher win rate? Where are all the people who called for "diversity?" Its certainly, at this point, not the marksmen's fault as winrates clearly show that battle mages like Swain are better in a duo lane. So where are the people who demanded diversity? Because it clearly wasn't the people who actually played botlane, otherwise the lane wouldn't have dropped in play rate from the end of season 7 to now. Globally bot lane is the least played role in the game. Support is even beating it out. So where are the people who wanted this "diversity?"

Using your argument against you, who says that marksmen arent viable? Who says that you cant play marksmen bot,top,mid or jng? Not only that but there are only around 20 marksmen and yet Jinx,Jhin,MF,Lucian,Kai'sa and Twitch are all champions who ACTUALLY ARE VIABLE WITH OVER A 50% WR! Ezrael is the only one with a 47% wr and that is most likely because his very high pickrate. Just because Tristana & Caitlyn arent viable (and thank god for that) or that crit adcs generally are strugguling right now, that doesnt mean that ADC's in general are non-meta. You just have to look at the graphs of playrates in botlane and you'd see that most people actually pick ADC's. Also you didnt quite understand my question. What I meant was more like ''why was it okay for almost all bruisers to be shit in almost the entire S7 but now that crit adc's are strugguling it isnt okay anymore?''

Also dont spew bs botlane was generally the 2nd most picked role until 8.11. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8stOrwWEqkw

OtterlyLost4 votes

c: Glad you decided to ask me questions because, unlike you, I FULLY plan to answer them.

Who says that marksmen aren't viable?

No one but cold hard statistics. The bottom winrates on OP.GG for bot lane are currently as follows, starting from the lowest percentage and going to the highest:

Varus (42%) Lux (45%) Caitlyn (45%) Tristana (45%) Xayah (46%) Vlad (48%) Kog (48%) Sivir (48%) Kai'sa (48%) Kalista (48%) Ezreal (48%) Darius (49%) Vayne (49%) Brand (49%) Lucian (50%)

I highlight Lucian because he's the first ADC out of ten ADCs to have a 50% winrate. That means that the majority of the ADC class is losing more than 50% of them games in the one lane that they were actually balanced for; in the one lane that they can actually go to. These are not without substantial pick rates and this is at Korean Plat + so it isn't just players being bad at the game. Of the bottom five winrates of the lane, four are ADCs and they all four have critically bad win rates.

Before patch 8.11 hit, the role did not have this huge of a variance in win rations between its lowest winrate champions and its highest with this staggering number of champions at a sub 50% winrate.

Even just ignoring these win rates, however, there is also the fact that many LCK teams have started opting to not pick marksmen at all in their professional games. While I do not put much hold on pro game picks, a lot of other people do and seem to believe that professional level is how the game is meant to be played. And in a way, it is. It is meant to be played with a team with whom you have repertoire and synergy with and its meant to be a more strategic endeavor with actual picks and bans being based around the comp you wish to make. The only thing is you just won't get that in soloqueue. But I digress, if pros aren't even picking marksmen in their games and are playing full melee teams(something that's never happened before now), then there is clearly an issue of viability with the champions.

Who says you can't play marksmen top, mid, jungle?

No one except your team and the fact that most of the crit marksmen are ill adapt at going anywhere bot botlane, doubly so after their health regen stat got nerfed. It makes it a little hard to go mid against pokey assassins and mages if you don't have the health regen, base armor, or MR to survive their onslaught. Or its hard to go top against a bruiser or tank that can all in you level 3 because you're immobile, need items to do damage, and have no forms of self peel. And again have no armor, health regen, or MR to survive the encounter. And clearing the jungler is difficult when you only have single target clears, low sustain due to having your one sustain keystone nerfed and, again, no health regen, and a weak dueling potential making you extremely reliable on your laners to have lane priority when going for scuttle crabs.

So nothing stops these champions from going mid, top, jungle beyond their own inability to optimally survive there where as mages/assassins/bruisers/tanks have always had the ability to go bot and never had a good reason not to. Mages can team up with an aggressive support and easily poke out the squishy, low damage early ADC and use the range of their spells and the threat of an eventual all in to force them back. Bruiser/tanks/assassins can just do the same thing that they did top/mid lane; get to level 3 and proceed to all in, especially if they have an all in support or a poke support. And all of these champions have higher base stats, higher base damages, and better and faster builds and powerspikes than ADCs. There was never anything preventing them from going bot beyond that they could also go to a solo lane and not have to be behind in levels.

Not only that but there are only around 20 marksmen and yet Jinx,Jhin,MF,Lucian,Kai'sa and Twitch are all champions who ACTUALLY ARE VIABLE WITH OVER A 50% WR! Ezrael is the only one with a 47% wr and that is most likely because his very high pickrate.

So out of 20 marksmen, five are viable. 25% of a roster is viable. That's some good odds right there. :') Glad I have so much diversity as an ADC main. As for Ezreal's WR, its not because of his high pick rate; he had a high pick rate the previous patch and the patch before that and the patch before that; his pick rate never affects his winrate. He's one of those ADCs that people play no matter how good or bad he is because he's an especially favorite ADC; before this current patch right now, he had a +50% winrate. Riot just gave him further base stat nerfs to bring him further in line.

You just have to look at the graphs of playrates in botlane and you'd see that most people actually pick ADC's.

Pick rate=/=Viability.

People still picked bruisers when they were apparently "unviable" because that is what they wanted to play. ADCs are the same way; they will always be picked regardless of viability and regardless of whatever bullshit "diversity" people try to shove botlane because that's what people who play bot lane want to play. They started playing bot lane specifically because ADCs are what they wanted to play botlane. So of course ADC's pick rate is not going to go down; just because you nerf an entire class of champions does not mean that the people who enjoyed playing them is going to magically stop playing them. They play those champions because that's what they enjoy playing. In the same way that Mages are apparently shit right now but you still see people playing mages nearly every game or every other game on one team or the other. Viability does not and never will equate to play rate and the sooner people get that into their thick skulls, the better off everyone would be.

Also you didnt quite understand my question. What I meant was more like ''why was it okay for almost all bruisers to be shit in almost the entire S7 but now that crit adc's are strugguling it isnt okay anymore?''

If that's what you meant, then that's what you should have asked. The fact of the matter is, Bruisers were not shit in almost all of S7. From my understanding, in S7, they were in a fine state. I saw plenty of Renektons, Dariuses, Fioras, Jaxes, Kleds, Gnars, J4(he was even a flavor of the month), Wukong, Camille(does anyone remember Camille? Oh god Camille...), Nasus, Warwick... The list goes on and on and on. They were played frequently and I rarely saw complaints that they were unviable or unplayable. Furthermore, they actually had a keystone then that wasn't completely broken and had a clause specifically in it for them to allow them stack it up and use it faster; Fervor of Battle was actually a good mastery/keystone/what have you and I never saw bruisers complain about it once.

The beginning of season 8 they were bad for three or four patches because, somehow, Riot over looked giving them a keystone that was meaningful. They rectified this a little too aggressively in my opinion as Conqueror is an over tuned piece of shit that only they can use worth a damn. They should have just returned Fervor of Battle and taken out PTA and Conqueror. Giving flat AD instead of increased damage from all sources or flat out true damage is far better and healthier for the game. :/

Also dont spew bs botlane was generally the 2nd most picked role until 8.11.

I do believe that's what I said. I said that before 8.11, ADC was actually even with mid and only slightly ahead of jungle and top which were both tied. And then I followed it up with post 8.11 the role has dropped drastically and no one plays it. There is no BS in this statement as yourself just admitted that it is true. That botlane mains are now dropping and fleeing the role as a whole. So thanks for agreeing with me.

ankoanko192 votes

{quoted}

c: Glad you decided to ask me questions because, unlike you, I FULLY plan to answer them.

Who says that marksmen aren't viable?

No one but cold hard statistics. The bottom winrates on OP.GG for bot lane are currently as follows, starting from the lowest percentage and going to the highest:

Varus (42%) Lux (45%) Caitlyn (45%) Tristana (45%) Xayah (46%) Vlad (48%) Kog (48%) Sivir (48%) Kai'sa (48%) Kalista (48%) Ezreal (48%) Darius (49%) Vayne (49%) Brand (49%) Lucian (50%)

I highlight Lucian because he's the first ADC out of ten ADCs to have a 50% winrate. That means that the majority of the ADC class is losing more than 50% of them games in the one lane that they were actually balanced for; in the one lane that they can actually go to. These are not without substantial pick rates and this is at Korean Plat + so it isn't just players being bad at the game. Of the bottom five winrates of the lane, four are ADCs and they all four have critically bad win rates.

Before patch 8.11 hit, the role did not have this huge of a variance in win rations between its lowest winrate champions and its highest with this staggering number of champions at a sub 50% winrate.

Even just ignoring these win rates, however, there is also the fact that many LCK teams have started opting to not pick marksmen at all in their professional games. While I do not put much hold on pro game picks, a lot of other people do and seem to believe that professional level is how the game is meant to be played. And in a way, it is. It is meant to be played with a team with whom you have repertoire and synergy with and its meant to be a more strategic endeavor with actual picks and bans being based around the comp you wish to make. The only thing is you just won't get that in soloqueue. But I digress, if pros aren't even picking marksmen in their games and are playing full melee teams(something that's never happened before now), then there is clearly an issue of viability with the champions.

Who says you can't play marksmen top, mid, jungle?

No one except your team and the fact that most of the crit marksmen are ill adapt at going anywhere bot botlane, doubly so after their health regen stat got nerfed. It makes it a little hard to go mid against pokey assassins and mages if you don't have the health regen, base armor, or MR to survive their onslaught. Or its hard to go top against a bruiser or tank that can all in you level 3 because you're immobile, need items to do damage, and have no forms of self peel. And again have no armor, health regen, or MR to survive the encounter. And clearing the jungler is difficult when you only have single target clears, low sustain due to having your one sustain keystone nerfed and, again, no health regen, and a weak dueling potential making you extremely reliable on your laners to have lane priority when going for scuttle crabs.

So nothing stops these champions from going mid, top, jungle beyond their own inability to optimally survive there where as mages/assassins/bruisers/tanks have always had the ability to go bot and never had a good reason not to. Mages can team up with an aggressive support and easily poke out the squishy, low damage early ADC and use the range of their spells and the threat of an eventual all in to force them back. Bruiser/tanks/assassins can just do the same thing that they did top/mid lane; get to level 3 and proceed to all in, especially if they have an all in support or a poke support. And all of these champions have higher base stats, higher base damages, and better and faster builds and powerspikes than ADCs. There was never anything preventing them from going bot beyond that they could also go to a solo lane and not have to be behind in levels.

Not only that but there are only around 20 marksmen and yet Jinx,Jhin,MF,Lucian,Kai'sa and Twitch are all champions who ACTUALLY ARE VIABLE WITH OVER A 50% WR! Ezrael is the only one with a 47% wr and that is most likely because his very high pickrate.

So out of 20 marksmen, five are viable. 25% of a roster is viable. That's some good odds right there. :') Glad I have so much diversity as an ADC main. As for Ezreal's WR, its not because of his high pick rate; he had a high pick rate the previous patch and the patch before that and the patch before that; his pick rate never affects his winrate. He's one of those ADCs that people play no matter how good or bad he is because he's an especially favorite ADC; before this current patch right now, he had a +50% winrate. Riot just gave him further base stat nerfs to bring him further in line.

You just have to look at the graphs of playrates in botlane and you'd see that most people actually pick ADC's.

Pick rate=/=Viability.

People still picked bruisers when they were apparently "unviable" because that is what they wanted to play. ADCs are the same way; they will always be picked regardless of viability and regardless of whatever bullshit "diversity" people try to shove botlane because that's what people who play bot lane want to play. They started playing bot lane specifically because ADCs are what they wanted to play botlane. So of course ADC's pick rate is not going to go down; just because you nerf an entire class of champions does not mean that the people who enjoyed playing them is going to magically stop playing them. They play those champions because that's what they enjoy playing. In the same way that Mages are apparently shit right now but you still see people playing mages nearly every game or every other game on one team or the other. Viability does not and never will equate to play rate and the sooner people get that into their thick skulls, the better off everyone would be.

Also you didnt quite understand my question. What I meant was more like ''why was it okay for almost all bruisers to be shit in almost the entire S7 but now that crit adc's are strugguling it isnt okay anymore?''

If that's what you meant, then that's what you should have asked. The fact of the matter is, Bruisers were not shit in almost all of S7. From my understanding, in S7, they were in a fine state. I saw plenty of Renektons, Dariuses, Fioras, Jaxes, Kleds, Gnars, J4(he was even a flavor of the month), Wukong, Camille(does anyone remember Camille? Oh god Camille...), Nasus, Warwick... The list goes on and on and on. They were played frequently and I rarely saw complaints that they were unviable or unplayable. Furthermore, they actually had a keystone then that wasn't completely broken and had a clause specifically in it for them to allow them stack it up and use it faster; Fervor of Battle was actually a good mastery/keystone/what have you and I never saw bruisers complain about it once.

The beginning of season 8 they were bad for three or four patches because, somehow, Riot over looked giving them a keystone that was meaningful. They rectified this a little too aggressively in my opinion as Conqueror is an over tuned piece of shit that only they can use worth a damn. They should have just returned Fervor of Battle and taken out PTA and Conqueror. Giving flat AD instead of increased damage from all sources or flat out true damage is far better and healthier for the game. :/

Also dont spew bs botlane was generally the 2nd most picked role until 8.11.

I do believe that's what I said. I said that before 8.11, ADC was actually even with mid and only slightly ahead of jungle and top which were both tied. And then I followed it up with post 8.11 the role has dropped drastically and no one plays it. There is no BS in this statement as yourself just admitted that it is true. That botlane mains are now dropping and fleeing the role as a whole. So thanks for agreeing with me.

So because a champion has less than a 50% wr it is non-meta? Hmh, I guess Irelias 45% winrate has to go. + you're using statistics from OP.GG. In other words youre looking at statistics from last patch. You need to use Lolalytics if you want to analyze it. MF 54% wr, Draven 53.6% wr, Jinx 51.9% wr, Twitch 51.7% wr, Lucian 50.5% wr. Quinn has a ridiculous 55.7% wr, I get she isnt a traditional marksman but marksman played bot nonetheless. Now these are champions with OVER a 50% wr but that doesnt mean they're the only meta ADC's. Kaisa, Ezrael have less than 50% wr but are generally considered better than most of the 50+% wr adc's. But these are not the only viable adc's. I might have worded it a bit wrong in my last paragraph. Vayne, Xayah, Ashe, Sivir are adcs which you can find success in. They dont have to be the most effective tactic avaliable, you can still find easy succes with them. The only adcs in the gutter are Tris, Cait, Varus, Kalista and arguably Kog'maw. Kog and Kali and Varus arent even crit abusers so that leaves only 2 ADC's left.

Could it be because people are finding out new ways to build the character and not just braindeadly go for IE>Shiv>RFC? Or in Xayahs case ER>AS crit item>IE? Could it also be because their items dont really have much usage in the current meta we're in where tanks arent really viable so you dont need someone to be a tank cutter? You know it yourself, once tanks become meta again ADC's will shine aswell. ADC's like Caitlyn are trash right now, but how was she in early season 7 when people complained about ADC being the worst role and tanks the best? She was stupidly overpowered right?

No I didnt mean it HEAD ON, it was more of like an anology, jesus christ. Yeah when were these bruisers good? Was it early season 7 before bramblevest or all the tank item changes or all the tanks in general getting buffed? SOME were good for like 3-4 patches. Camille was insanely overpowered ON HER RELEASE but after that she was almost entirely meh or a bad pick.

DearPear1 votes

{quoted}

No one but cold hard statistics. The bottom winrates on OP.GG for bot lane are currently as follows, starting from the lowest percentage and going to the highest:

Varus (42%) Lux (45%) Caitlyn (45%) Tristana (45%) Xayah (46%) Vlad (48%) Kog (48%) Sivir (48%) Kai'sa (48%) Kalista (48%) Ezreal (48%) Darius (49%) Vayne (49%) Brand (49%) Lucian (50%)

I highlight Lucian because he's the first ADC out of ten ADCs to have a 50% winrate.

And here's the reality of these stats you're showing

Out of 19 marksmen, 10 have <50% winrate, 9 have >50% winrate. If your conclusion to that is that marksmen are gutted, how biased is your judgement?

What your stats are also telling us is that only 4 marksmen out of 19 have less than 48% winrate. Totally gutted... yeah, right.

Even just ignoring these win rates, however, there is also the fact that many LCK teams have started opting to not pick marksmen at all in their professional games.

Hence the topic's title : Marksmen aren't mandatory anymore. That does NOT mean that marksmen are gutted, that means that we now have a better botlane diversity than before.

Fízz v24 votes

Why is it okay for an entire class of champions to suddenly not be viable in the only lane they can play in?

Lucian Ezreal Kaisa Xayah Varus Ashe (all of them picked in pro) Draven Jhin Quinn Twitch (and those have good stats in soloq)

call me when that actually happened hehe

OtterlyLost6 votes

Sure will, as soon as you and I are playing in pro play and what they play there matters to us! :D

As for Quinn, she is not a traditional marksmen or she would have been hit with the base stat nerfs that all of the others got; she was balanced and reworked for a solo lane and is more of an assassin by riot's own standards.

Twitch got a buff.

Draven always has a small player base and a high winrate because he's played by only dedicated mains; no nub is just going to pick him and instantly have a 53% winrate.

And Jhin is a lane bully who greatly benefits from Stormrazor; he is not a crit ADC because he gets free, guaranteed crits and the changes to IE literally did nothing except push him further away from building crit. His crits already do less damage than other ADCs and he would get IE to normalize his crit modifier. Now that IE doesn't give your crits a bonuse 250% damage, there is no reason for him to build it beyond to get the true damage. Its actually better for him to rush pure burst and AD, which is what he does. Current highest winrate build for Jhin has him going Stormrazor into RFC and GA.

Fízz v25 votes

They play whats best in the meta, which kinda matters to us.

Draven has almost 11% pick rate, so..

Marksmen in general are still number 1, what you could say is that crit adcs arent good, but that isnt a whole class and even there are exceptions like Xayah and Twitch.

OtterlyLost3 votes

They are not number 1. Viability =/= Playrate. Just because they see a lot of play does not mean that they are good. Ezreal sees tons of play regardless of what his win rate is like and he is still not good. Also Xayah is not good unless you count being the 6th lowest win rate bot lane as "good." Twitch is "passable" but only after they buffed him.

As for playing what's best in the meta, no thanks. I'd rather play what I enjoy playing. Furthermore, no one ever expects bruisers to just play tanks when tanks are meta or mages to just play assassins when assassins are meta. Why should I be expected as a marksmen to play just what's good?

Fízz v21 votes

What else is the best then? Ezreal and Lucian are by far the most played adcs in pro play, thats gotta tell you something. Only champs that came close to adcs were Irelia, who got nerfed, Vlad, who also got nerfed and maybe Swain.

Win rate really doesnt matter for some champs, Ezreal has 26% pick rate, Kaisa 20% and Lucian 33% and they are pretty hard to play so not everyone is gonna play them well.

OtterlyLost3 votes

Right this second, Kennen apparently is the best thing bot with a 57% winrate. Swain is both sitting at 53% win rate with a decent pick rate as well. From what I'm seeing, mages are holding up very well with the reduction of health regen and shielding and healing.

And again, talk to me when we're both playing in pro play so what gets played there matters.

Ezreal, Kai'sa, and Lucian are not hard to play either and have, in the past, had high winrates with high play rates. They are not that mechanically difficult; Ezreal is easy as long as you can land skillshots and know how to kite back. Lucian is just about comboing your abilities in the most efficient manner(usually by starting with your E so that subsequent shots of your passive will start making the CD of that go down sooner). And the hardest thing about Kai'sa is getting through early game and knowing when to ult in. These are not mechaniclly difficult champions like Draven or Kalista and pretty much have all of the same skills required to play ADC normally; muscle memory, good positioning, the ability to kite efficiently, and to be able to stay alive as long as possible by being the squishiest champion in the fight.

Fízz v21 votes

Ezreal, Kai'sa, and Lucian are not hard to play either and have, in the past, had high winrates with high play rates

When? I remember Lucian being broken yet having like 45% win rate in plat+. Maybe these champs had a high win rate when they were gigabroken so everyone could play them xd

Stats from https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champions/ and http://www.gamesoflegends.com/champion/picksandbans.php?id=ALL&league=ALL&season=S8&split=ALL&patch=8.12&role=ADC tell me that marksman is still the number 1 class overall bot lane, at least not "unviable".

Dr Birdie1 votes

"As for playing what's best in the meta, no thanks. I'd rather play what I enjoy playing. "

Go ahead dude. No one is stopping you. Literally no one has made a rule saying "you are not allowed to play Tristana."

But here you are complaining something you want to play isn't good right now. Despite the fact that you don't care what's good in the meta.

Side note: Love how Marksmen were mandatory for 6 or 7 years, and then they go out of viability slightly for a couple of weeks, and suddenly the game is ruined.

OtterlyLost4 votes

No no one has to tell me I can't or I'm not allowed to. The game has fundamentally changed so that I can't play her without trolling and getting flamed by teammates, literally removing the fun of the game. Not only that but she feels awful to play and extremely unrewarding to play. Why should what I want to play be garbage?

Side note: I love how bruisers have always been viable but they don't have a keystone for six patches and they are all baby raging like Hashinshin about it.

Dr Birdie1 votes

So you only enjoy playing them when they are good in the meta?

So you do care about what is good and what is meta, because if you didn't you would still find them fun and enjoyable, even when they are bad, like I did with Twitch when he was garbage for a while or Amumu when I couldn't even gank for the first ten minutes because there was no mana sustain in the jungle at one point.

Side note: Yes, bruisers have always been viable. But they have never been mandatory. Even during tank metas where it was a tank top with a tank jungler, an ap tank mid and a tank support, bot lane was still reserved for the mandatory ADC Marksmen. There are only 22 marksmen in the game (including Kindred, Graves, Teemo, and Quinn). That makes up less than 20% of the cast, yet there was two of them, if not more, in every single game for 6 seasons straight. The same cannot be said for any other class.

saltran2 votes

Varus - good stats on soloQ

Choose one.

saltran6 votes

{quoted}

But why should marksmen be mandatory? That is not what you've answered

That's a really interesting topic but is not the theme of this thread, if you read this post you can see that I didn't said that this state of botlane meta is wrong or right because for the topic of this thread is irrelevant:

I wanted to point that (imo) the reason why most botlanes are still with a marksman is not because adcs are mandatory like other ppl is the Boards is pretending and is because now you have the option to play marksman or other sutff and most of the adc mains choose the adcs over the bruisers/mages.

That's why I call out the ppl that want non adc botlanes but refuse to play non adc botlanes themselfs and just expect that the adc mains will suddenly stop playing adcs.

Exalomaniac3 votes

I play Marksmen because they are the only class that i truly can have fun with (Jhin +1100000 points yay). The nerf to crit just makes me want to play the game less. I just dont have fun playing Brand, Vladimir or these random bruisers bot.

RyzeTheSmurfMage1 votes

{quoted}

I play Marksmen because they are the only class that i truly can have fun with (Jhin +1100000 points yay). The nerf to crit just makes me want to play the game less. I just dont have fun playing Brand, Vladimir or these random bruisers bot.

Before the crit nerfs ADCs were bursting other classes in seconds. The game was unfun for other classes. And no it is not ok for the game to depend just on 1 class.

Exalomaniac3 votes

{quoted}

Before the crit nerfs ADCs were bursting other classes in seconds. The game was unfun for other classes. And no it is not ok for the game to depend just on 1 class.

All classes could one shot in one second, and now ADCs are the only ones that cant. Even supports (because of great "supports" like Brand, Veigar and Zyra) will outdamage ADCs until they get their third item. I consider that bad game balance when the class thats supposed to DPS can't because burst is the only form of damage that matters.

Hügö2 votes

Marksmen are not mandatory in bot but is still the best option in regards of winning the game.

Nhifu1 votes

Honestly it's trial and error right now.

Unless you're in a FULL 5 MAN PREMADE, the meta doesn't really apply to you / current rank lol

TakaDama1 votes

They should rename the positions:

Teleport Island - Top Global Support 1 - Jungle Global Support 2 - Mid Bot Carry - Bot Bot Support - Support

And by carry I mean anyone who can take objectives quickly and reliably mid to late game, like Yi (enough said), Ziggs (satchel on tower), and Nasus/Yorick (p-p-p-PUSHING POWAH!)

Leyruh1 votes

Frankly, in the actual META, you can play_ "mandatory botlane Champions"_ ( AKA Marksmen ) or try something new. If I see a Bruiser, Assassin or Mage as ADC, I won't question it.

I mean, I'm playing Zoe Support and my premade is playing Lux ADC ( well, she builds AP, of course, and so do I ). I feel like it's legit.

We dumpstered an Ashe ADC and Zed Support, even going as far as doing good in a 3v5 situation. ( it was on PBE, and our Ahri midlane and Chogath toplane both ragequited )

If this META wants to bring change into the botlane, you can go with the flow if you like. Try crazy stuff if you want. Who's there to tell you that_ "NO, you should, MUST, play a mandatory ADC."_

Marksmen are still viable. Matchups might just be a bit harder and they take a bit longer to build themselves. But get fed as a "mandatory Marksman" and oh boi, will you just crush everyone. It's almost like the nerfs didn't take place. ( had a game where I just popped off as Jhin, went 12/0 at one point, FEELS GREAT MAN. )


I'm not the kind to question my teammate's picks. I didn't say anything when my Support picked Leblanc one day.

Everything can work when it's within the right hands. You just have to trust your teammates. Sure, there's troll picks.

But I feel like you shouldn't be considered a troll when you have an unusual pick. An off-meta pick is just a different strategy, in my opinion.

JESUSSAYSNO1 votes

Anyone exclusively playing ADCs on current patch is playing it wrong. There is more to the game than having fun to many players. Meta needs to be considered, for ranked play at least. A lot of ADCs are straight up troll picks right now compared to the likes of Vlad, Brand, Irelia, Yasuo, etc, but are still being played, and nobody is saying a word about it, while a lot of the actual meta botlaners, or even counterpicks, can be lynched in champ select due to lack of information and player stupidity.

The community is bad at the game. Botlane is not ADC. ADC can be played in all roles in current meta. Anyone who insists bot is ADC is wrong.

OmegaNITRO1 votes

The simple fact of the matter is that it's better to play a shit champion you know how to play than an OP champ you don't.

I'm all for broadening the available picks and strategies, but not at the expense of the viability of the existing ones.

When a standard ADC needs to be overtuned or abusing an OP build to be as optimal as a flex pick that isn't originally a bot laner, that's a sad state of affairs.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

its not wrong, that marksmen are still played a lot out of habit.

though id also argue here, that its mostly because the people are most familiar with those champions due to playing them bot over the last few years. it doesnt neccessarily mean, that everyone likes playing them the most.

bot lane diversity isnt supposed to even push marksmen out of the game. its just supposed to open up more viable teamcomps. so i dont understand where all this anger in your tone comes from in the first place.

but its also not correct that they arent mandatory. as it stands, the top marksmen basically beat all fighters and mages that arent irelia or yasuo due to their outplay potential.

youre not going to survive a lane with mordekaiser, darius or garen against the likes of mf, ezreal or kaisa.

as far as mages go, its basically the same deal. out of all mages who are played bot lane, its definitely no suprise that its the one of them with the most massive sustain, and whos manaless. Vladimir

its only a few handful of non marksmen picks that are currently viable in the bot lane.

More from Gameplay

More by saltran