Question about AP mages

SSShutTheDuckUp·Nov 8, 2015·41 votes·3,569 views

Yes, i know, i messed the tittle - i mean non mobile mages, all mages as AP:)

Hello everyone. Looking forward to new S6 update. I love new marksman change, it would be healthy, IMO, but i have a question. With all the upcoming changes both on AP and AD itemization - what will happen to one specific group of champions - low mobile AP casters - , etc. I mean - all of them kinda struggle against high-mobile, high burst AD midlaners like . What i am afraid is that they would go completely out of the META, cause at the same time they are nerfed, while all of their natural counters are buffed. And i do not want it, cause they seem to be must fair champions, IMO. I mean - sure they have high dmg, but they are either combo-reliant, or need to land a skill-shot in order to be effective, so they offer a lot of counterplay. For me they are also fun to play, and i know i am not the only one. So my question is - would they remain relevant and worth-playing? Cause the opposite would be sad.

Thank you for your time reading that, and thank you again for your time answering. Have a wonderful day!

58 Comments

CasriNov 8, 201523 votes

Some immobile mages are doing really well right now Anivia Annie Lux Velkoz so I think that despite the Season 6 changes, they will probably be at least viable, if not still fairly decent.

I'm more concerned for other mages who have been on the weak side now for an incredibly long time Cassiopeia Zyra Syndra . The season 6 changes are going to make it even harder to succeed with these champions unfortunately, with everything getting more expensive and counters being buffed. Cass was in a bad state pre-rework, the rework made her worse, she got some compensatory buffs enabling her in pro-play and then she got nerfed back down again. Syndra got nerfed after she was played a lot in Season 4 worlds and now her early laning is garbage and her scaling is pretty bad. Zyra mid has been going from bad to worse ever since mid Season 3 where she was nerfed into support, the plant AI 'buff' she had a few months back was a joke. I really hope these guys get something soon, going into Season 6.

I totally agree that playing against basically any AD mid now Zed Talon Yasuo Gangplank is going to be awful. Depending on how good the marksman changes are, we might even see things like Quinn Mid becoming popular.

It's all conjecture right now, but I agree with you that things aren't looking good for our beloved mages. :/

SSShutTheDuckUpNov 8, 201510 votes

We had League of assassins, league of tanks, now we will have League of AD. So i am thinking as something like Season7: League of mages Jokes aside, thank you for your opinion. I totally agree with you about champs, who are weak and strong now Have you noticed, that RIOT seems to threat differently some champions. The most recent case was with the juggernaut nerfs. Both Skarner Darius Garen and Mordekaiser became powerhouse. Shortly after Skarner was completely gutted to the point i never see him in games. At the same time the approach for the other 3 was different - they were nerfed, little by little, to the point they became somewhat beatable, while still insanely strong. I do not know why is that, but i cannot escape the feeling some champs are being favored all the time.

CasriNov 8, 201517 votes

[{quoted}](name=UselessAsF ck,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Aqb6Ej5r,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-11-08T16:31:41.766+0000)I do not know why is that, but i cannot escape the feeling some champs are being favored all the time.

At this point, yeah. It seems fairly clear that Riot are happy with certain champions being viable at any point Ahri LeeSin Thresh Riven Yasuo , whereas other champions are only allowed their 15 minutes of viability before they're smashed with nerfs Sejuani Skarner Cassiopeia Sion Sona .

SSShutTheDuckUpNov 8, 20157 votes

Indeed, and even if at some point we recieve strong mages they will be probably gutted pretty soon. Just like AP items are getting nerfed like one and a half month after their buff.

LadyRenlyNov 8, 20152 votes

Ap items weren't buffed though, were they? They got a gold decrease, but they also got an ap decrease

SSShutTheDuckUpNov 8, 20154 votes

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-513-notes#patch-ability-power-itemization

It happened in 5.13, and i think it was overall buff.

http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/10/1029-pbe-update.html#items4

These will be changes in preseason. TLDR - Magic resist will be cheaper, and Ability Power will be more expensive

YumaS2AstralNov 8, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=UselessAsF ck,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Aqb6Ej5r,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-08T18:06:38.953+0000)

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-513-notes#patch-ability-power-itemization

It happened in 5.13, and i think it was overall buff.

http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/10/1029-pbe-update.html#items4

These will be changes in preseason. TLDR - Magic resist will be cheaper, and Ability Power will be more expensive

Not only that, magic resist will be stronger. Banshee's Veil for example, will offer as much health as old Randuin used to offer, and as much magic resistance as the amount of armor that old Randuin used to offer.

And they nerfed the armor items. It is pretty clear that Riot wants to make an AD-centric meta. At the moment, the only reason why AP champions are still necessary to a team is to not allow an enemy tank to build only armor.

SSShutTheDuckUpNov 8, 20151 votes

I am not entirely sure tanks themselves would be viable. Combine expensive armor and cheap armor penetration early in the game. People playing tanks in PBE complain, that they feel underpowered. So if tanks themselves are not viable picking against them will be a waste. And there will be no reason for people not to pick full AD comps. I do not mind them to be viable, do not get me wrong. But i am afraid that it will be the only viable option. Anyways, this is just a discussion, we will wait for the preseason and have actual games outside PBE and then we will see if mages are still worth-played

YumaS2AstralNov 8, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=UselessAsF ck,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Aqb6Ej5r,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-08T21:03:43.469+0000)

I am not entirely sure tanks themselves would be viable. Combine expensive armor and cheap armor penetration early in the game. People playing tanks in PBE complain, that they feel underpowered. So if tanks themselves are not viable picking against them will be a waste. And there will be no reason for people not to pick full AD comps. I do not mind them to be viable, do not get me wrong. But i am afraid that it will be the only viable option. Anyways, this is just a discussion, we will wait for the preseason and have actual games outside PBE and then we will see if mages are still worth-played

Are tanks really not viable? Tanks are not only necessary due to their tankyness. You also need the CC, peeling, and initiation power, which are other reasons to use tanks, and few other champions are capable of providing all this, and even then, the tankyness of tanks make them the best at this job

TurquoiseYoshiNov 8, 20152 votes

It's not that bad that Skarner is unpopular now. He was never popular before changes. For a while before the rework, I didn't even know what position he was.

SSShutTheDuckUpNov 8, 20152 votes

Exactly, and when he was strong - he was strong for 1 patch. Absurdly strong indeed, but only for one patch.

TurquoiseYoshiNov 8, 20151 votes

Half a patch, he got hotfixed.

SpecterVonBarenNov 8, 20151 votes

And he's right back where he was except now he's lost his identity in exchange for one he can't actually do with the kit he has.

CatastropNov 8, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Quinn Mid becoming popular.

Is it bad that I don't mind this one? Quinn mid is my favourite off-meta pick because it's so much fun to play and her ult makes it so much easier to pull off roams plus something I'd definitely like to see though, is Varus mid come back into the meta as it's the only lane I like playing him.

CasriNov 8, 20155 votes

{quoted} Is it bad that I don't mind this one? Quinn mid is my favourite off-meta pick because it's so much fun to play and her ult makes it so much easier to pull off roams plus something I'd definitely like to see though, is Varus mid come back into the meta as it's the only lane I like playing him.

I'm not necessarily opposed to Quinn mid becoming popular as long as she's not overly oppressive to already established mid laners, and has meaningful counterplay.

If Varus mid became popular again, it would encourage Riot to take a look at his gameplay patterns, including things like his Q range and hitbox, so I'm all for that. :P

SSShutTheDuckUpNov 8, 20152 votes

Quinn is a fine champion and i do not mind her. She is short-ranged, not too mobile in fights and squishy, so she offers counterplay

Rico NastyNov 8, 20151 votes

People need to stop considering Syndra weak. She's broken in the right hands. Her burst levels are crazy and she is cancerous to play against. I agree with your main point though.

CasriNov 8, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=karma or feed,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Aqb6Ej5r,comment-id=00010002,timestamp=2015-11-08T18:42:20.272+0000)

People need to stop considering Syndra weak. She's broken in the right hands. Her burst levels are crazy and she is cancerous to play against. I agree with your main point though.

I don't think that she's horrible, but her early laning was hit very hard with the nerfs in 5.1. Syndra's mid game is very respectable but by late-game she feels slightly underwhelming and it's harder to safely get a pick with a QE combo.

My main point is that she was left in a poor state by Riot and they've left her like this for a long time. She lost early Q damage and stun reliability in addition to DFG being removed. She is supposed to be a lane bully burst mage scaling well into the mid-game, but right now it's very easy to fall behind before you can reach your power spikes, this isn't likely to improve with the season 6 changes. As it stands currently, Veigar does what Syndra does, but better AND has an amazing late game.

KaipopNov 9, 20151 votes

Tell me your definition of "bad" because Zyra Mid got me to Diamond. Yasuo and Zed aren't that hard, Gangplank isn't common mid, and Talon can give Zyra a hard time but that's expected, he counters her. And Syndra isn't too weak either, just needs a few levels but can stay safe in lane with E. Riot said they are planning some buffs/changes to her though.

Great OzymandiusNov 9, 20151 votes

It's difficult to predict. Other people have been pointing out that hextech gunblade is really strong on heimerdinger. This could push Heimer into top-tier status, which in turn would boost his counters (like syndra). Maybe syndra will become a strong pick simply for this reason, despite the fact that itemization changes would seem to have directly nerfed mages.

Craft ZeppelinNov 8, 20159 votes

After the markman update they said they will buff a lot of mages and rework some. dont worry

SSShutTheDuckUpNov 8, 20157 votes

Good news and thank you. Can you share a source? Would like to know more

Neo CyrusNov 8, 201511 votes

Don't count on anything. They always make promises, and almost never follow through, and if they do follow through it's with something that everyone begs them not to do but they do it anyway. Source: I've been around since 2011.

But don't worry, Brand has been (not so) hidden OP forever now, and Vel was buffed way into the super strong zone. He had win rates constantly over 50% before his last buff. Even if those two are weakened they'll be fine since every other mid is going to take as much or more of a hit... aside from the BS manaless AD mids you mentioned, they'll be super broken.

SSShutTheDuckUpNov 8, 201510 votes

I truly agree about Velkoz and . They happen to be most enjoyable type of champion - immobile mage (personal opinion). Playing them requires skill comboing, which i enjoy. And the best part is this is not unfair. This is about outsmarting and outplaying. But will we be supposed to ban those manaless BS every game in order to play a fair game? That's what i am afraid

TurquoiseYoshiNov 8, 20152 votes

Source: Japanese server.

blueberrypancakeNov 9, 20152 votes

Ha the promises on Mordekaiser

Then they give it to CertainlyT

ZT XperimentorNov 8, 20154 votes

Couldn't agree more, I enjoy playing as the immobile mages that require positioning and planning; but nearly every assassin (and similar like ekko & fizz) are frustrating to play against. They all have a spam-able safety ability while being able to deal more damage than mages, it's disheartening mages are rarely seen outside of aram.

SSShutTheDuckUpNov 8, 20153 votes

You are right. And this is sad. I do not mean assassin should't be viable. Every champ should be viable, so that players could play whatever they want, and not get stomped always when playing mage into assassin, or Urgot into anything

ZT XperimentorNov 8, 20151 votes

I agree, I just don't think assassins should be THE only viable thing; but from what I hear of the adc overhaul, carrys are going to outperform every other class (sigh).

Ironically, urgot is my turn-to champion when I'm forced to play carry; I suck as adc so I use him more as a denial champion than for carrying, usually works out.

SSShutTheDuckUpNov 8, 20151 votes

It is not about assassins only. All AD champs will outshine all AP. Hope RITO will give them some compensation

ZT XperimentorNov 8, 20151 votes

Oh that I'm aware of, the mastery changes give next to nothing to mages or tanks compared to carries. I just listed assassins because they often abuse adc items.

SSShutTheDuckUpNov 8, 20152 votes

They will keep doing it no matter what. All we can do is wait and see how balance turns out to be. But i will not be surprised if i see 5 AD comps, rushing armor penetration and finishing games at 25 min

Battlecast SonaNov 8, 20152 votes

Have you played on the PBE?

I'm just wondering, because a lot of the things you're talking about don't seem to mesh up with what's actually going on.

Teams that do this lose. On the PBE. Just so you're aware. Unless someone on the enemy team disconnects or the enemy team is 5 squishies as well, a 5 AD team comp will lose. A LOT.

The easiest way to see this is to look at the capability to teamfight for most AD champs. Name for me 1 AoE CC non-ultimate ability that an ADC has. Now name good teamfight ultimates. We've got Collateral Damage, Bullet Time, and Varus ult, basically.

Now look at the capability to teamfight for most AP champs. Mages, specifically, generally have at least 1 form of non-ultimate CC (AoE or otherwise), and their ultimate is either an additional CC (Lissandra) or a big damage ultimate (Brand).

Now you compare the most important part - what do ADCs have to do to deal damage in teamfights, since their abilities don't lend to it as well as mages? That's right, they have to AA. Which means they have to stand in attack range of the enemy team to deal damage to you, and they have to do it for an extended period of time. Meaning that most ADCs are still going to lose a 1v1 to a Mage, and that having 5 ADCs vs a balanced team (fighter top, mage mid, adc support bot, with whatever jungler) will result in the balanced team having much better teamfight pressure in 90% of scenarios. Winning teamfights wins you objective control and vision control.

It's actually SUPER dangerous to play super squishy comps like this right now too, due to the vision changes. A 5AD comp loses in the early game, when the enemy team just has safer lanes and better gank potential due to their non-reliance on autoattacks.

And this is JUST comparing ADCs to AP mages. When you start looking at 5 AD comps (even including an assassin) vs teams with a tank jungler and support, it gets scary. Sure, you can itemize into armor pen, but now LW only effects bonus armor, making it less effective early game (and, also, making early armor a more viable choice to counter the LW rush). People talk about the Giant Slayer item as well, without realizing that this item literally just makes up for the AD nerfs across the board on ADC items, allowing them to opt back into that damage if they don't need grievous wounds in the lategame.

tl;dr: Play the patch first, because your assessment is pretty flawed at the moment. source: I've been playing on PBE every day since the preseason dropped

SSShutTheDuckUpNov 8, 20152 votes

Thank you for your long answer. Long story short - i do not play on PBE and that is why i started the discussion. Not intending to be salty, by any means. I just love mages and wanted to see opinions if they are still viable. As i said - i do not play on PBE, and that's why i ask. Thank you for taking time to answer.

DengedenNov 8, 20151 votes

I can't speak for how this should play out on a high level but ... Aren't those match ups decided in the early game? (And by jungle pressure as always) Once the aforementioned mages get double item 1056 , they'll have enough mana as well as a little durability to just powerfarm. If push comes to shove, they'll get item 3191 too, making assassinations next to impossible.

I don't think any new items will be able to change that part of the match up(s).

SSShutTheDuckUpNov 8, 20152 votes

in the preseason item 3191 will give less armor, and armor penetration will be easier to buy. As well as all the other items, both AD and AP champs buy. http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/10/1029-pbe-update.html#items4 TLDR - AD items get better, armor gets more expensive, AP items get worse, Magic resist gets cheaper. That's the reason i ask if mages will stay viable the way they are now

DengedenNov 8, 20151 votes

It doesn't matter. As I said, the matchup is mostly about surviving until the first back without being down 20+ CS.

After that, you just abuse your range advantage and prevent them from roaming effectively. As long as you position well enough (and don't waste your CC) they can't kill you. It's how these AD champions are balanced. Some additional AD or MR shouldn't change that.

SSShutTheDuckUpNov 8, 20151 votes

I agree you got a point. Even though I am still afraid of upcoming full AD meta. Do not speak only about assassins, but also about ADC midlaners, which, will be flatout stronger than mages, considering equal skill and jungle pressure

Battlecast SonaNov 8, 20152 votes

ADCs still have pretty garbage early games, and most of them past level 9 still don't scale with levels (once you max your primary damage skill there's generally very little base damage scaling after that), meaning that a mage will still beat an ADC in a 1v1 if they play it properly. Like, if you compare Syndra vs Jinx and Syndra vs Zed, which do you think is harder? Probably vs Zed. If you compare Anivia vs Annie to Anivia vs Quinn, which do you think is harder? Probably Annie, since she can just burst you down instantly.

Every ADC vs Mage mid lane will come down to proper positioning, but mages will have the advantage of doing their damage in a burst (generally) while ADCs still rely on sustained damage (unless your name is Graves).

Battlecast SonaNov 8, 20151 votes

AD items got nerfed across the board though. Every single Tier 3 AD item lost 15 AD. Youmu's got more expensive and lost the CDR. Ravenous Hydra is more expensive, Tiamat got nerfed...

Great OzymandiusNov 9, 20151 votes

LW won't be worth it to penetrate a small amount of armor, since it only applies to bonus armor. Flat AD would be better.

elon wątrobaNov 8, 20151 votes

Well your nickname answered the question, jokes aside they'll be fine. I haven't a pbe account, so i didn't try brand with new mastery, which stacks with his passive, but i heard that is strong as hell.

SSShutTheDuckUpNov 8, 20152 votes

Maybe, but looking at all new masteries they seem to favor AD champions way more that AP ones.

SammystormNov 8, 20151 votes

Back in season 3 we had ad itemization changes that made all ap mid laners weaker. They are still however successful and usually more successful in the lower levels as play. So it might take getting use to but they will still have a very big impact as long as you play smart in the laning phase.

procrastinasianNov 8, 20151 votes

It's just kind of annoying that you aren't allowed to pick one role into another. There isn't a whole lot of counterplay for immobile mages to fight against AD assassins other than to rush Zhonya's and pray. It's nearly impossible to play Zyra or Syndra into Talon or Zed nowadays. I mean, it's great that they're immobile but when they're squishy as hell and skillshot reliant, most of their power is lost.

KaipopNov 9, 20151 votes

zyra with a defensive summoner and syndra can do perfectly fine vs zed, talon is definitely tough though

KaipopNov 9, 20151 votes

All 3 of those champions can control lane and not die in lane then just buy Zhonyas before they get killed. Talon is probably the only real counter to those champions but that's expected.

Lady HammerlockNov 9, 20151 votes

i think riot for the time being should just increase the base armour of some poke mages to compensate for zhonyas(like by 1 armour like literally 1 base armour)

The PatriachyNov 9, 20151 votes

It is a big buff as long as you use the +35% movement speed upon dealing 30% of their max life mastery. If you use a damage mastery, you deserve what you get.

ZYra will remain garbage because of how unreliable she is though. The problem is her whole kit relies on her landing her e. If you don't land you e, you can't keep them in your ult. If you can't keep them in your ult, they will run out of plant range. She is probably the only mage in the game an adc can straight up duel throughout the entire game because of how easy it is to dodge her abilities as long as you avoid her e.