His Q is on the PBE AGAIN for buffs, which is meaningless. He's been mana gated from being anything but the worst of the hook supports. Just make him do jungle camp damage with his e like people have been asking for since the crummy nerfs to his riptide and let him jungle again where he has the healthiest role.
RiotRiot MapleNectar29 votesHey man, adding additional damage to monsters or minions is something that we generally try to avoid if we can. That's not to say that we don't use it ever, but it's usually when we don't have another option. I totally agree that adding percent bonus damage to monsters is an easy way to accomplish a goal of "let Nautilus jungle", but there's also something to be said about us not being overly prescriptive of who can/can't jungle through the use of this mechanic.
Personally I've gone back and forth on this quite a bit, at times I feel really strongly we should just do a pass on champs to put them in the jungle by adding bonus damage to monsters, but then other times I do agree with the argument that it's kind of a sloppy way of doing so, and sets us up for problems down the road. Not to mention the fact that Nautilus is currently struggling across the board, not just in the jungle, and some sort of signalling that's just "he's better in the jungle but no where else...sorry laners" is kinda shitty. That being said, we're currently looking at adding another line to this changelist that "should" be skew more heavily towards the jungle - likely early base shield on W or early bonus attack speed to help out with his early clear. Either of those changes will also obviously help out top and support, but should disproportionately aid his jungle clearing.
Ahristocats20 votesthat's kinda funny considering that you forced a lot of champions into the jungle by increasing their damage to monsters and nerfing the damage to minions/champions
RiotRiot MapleNectar19 votesPhilosophies around this kind of thing can/have changed. Our stance for awhile internally has been "don't introduce more of mechanics unless you absolutely have to, and seek to remove them if you think you have the opportunity to". This mechanic being added onto Irelia as an example was born out of concern that we'd release her and then she'd find her more successful home in the jungle, which would have felt like a kick in the pants for the majority of our old Irelia mains who enjoy her top. We're hoping that once we've stabilized her in top as her primary role that we'll be able to trim back or remove that mechanic (but we'll have to see).
Ahristocats15 voteslet me make myself clearer because i spoke in general I don't mind irelia being as viable in the jungle as top lane or mid lane
But you gutted kha'zix in lane and added %damage to monsters, which you removed eventually but didn't give kha'zix his waveclear that he used to get at lvl 6 mid lane, which makes him still unplayable in lane
You made hecarim unplayable top lane by nerfing his Q damage and increasing the damage to monsters Let's not forget Fiddlestick mid lane
And to finish this you also introduce new mechanics that force champions out of the lane like 
passive
RiotRiot MapleNectar20 votesLike I said, philosophies on this have changed. The intitial kha'zix changes you referenced are from season 4, the hecarim changes are from season 5, and fiddlesticks is still the most performant in midlane relative to other roles even after removing his bonus damage to minions. On Kha'zix that's a case where we may be able to put more power back into his W as we re-evaluate champs in multiple roles/playstyles.
Graves is a bit of a different one, he's a dude we've been talking about recently for how we could get him back into lane, but on release of the rework he was playeable in literally every role. Changes to him since that moved him stictly into the jungle at high level play certainly, and we're thinking of ways to bring him back out in a way that doesn't just mean he becomes meta dominant. No idea if/when we'll do anything currently though.
Ahristocats4 voteshttps://media1.tenor.com/images/fa3a081b3449f44d086878ccbcbbb3f5/tenor.gif?itemid=4816603
thank you for your insight, and do your best for kha and graves!
RiotRiot MapleNectar11 votesNo worries!
NineTailedMystic2 voteswhy do you want kha in lane tho. assassins are healthier when they're junglers.
AMYS GRAVE1 votesNo, assassination patterns that can 100-0 you coming from the fog of ware are inherently unhealthy.
NineTailedMystic1 votesThat's a general assassin problem.
AMYS GRAVE1 votesI would argue that assassin junglers exacerbate this problem because of how much time they spend in fog of war compared to laners.
WindLord70706 votesIf philosophies on this have changed does that mean we could see nidalee back in lane?. Adding damage modifiers for jungle camps only would have let her stay in both top/mid and still be able to jungle but instead you guys basically told all us nidalee players to stop playing her/quit the game or to play a role we don't like.
RiotRiot MapleNectar9 votesCertainly a possibility. Ironically her and Graves are the ones that I think I've either been a part of or overheard more conversation around. Similar story to Graves in not being sure when/if we'll be able to bring her back, but we've definitely been talking about it.
WindLord70705 votesAlot of us old school nidalee mains have been throwing around alot of ideas on how to do this. How can we make sure riot sees these things? Wouldn't just changing hunts passive damage vs monsters be something that's doable? And also why is it ok to force these champions out of their original roles but not force them out of the jungle? nidalee used to be playable in 2 roles (top and mid) unlike now with it only being jungle.
LuaDotExe2 votes[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ApzhAGrL,comment-id=0004000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-04-06T19:44:00.243+0000)
Certainly a possibility. Ironically her and Graves are the ones that I think I've either been a part of or overheard more conversation around. Similar story to Graves in not being sure when/if we'll be able to bring her back, but we've definitely been talking about it.
Out of curiosity, when these kinds of changes are discussed, how often do you look to the Boards for input and ideas on possible changes? Or would it be obnoxious of me to try and suggest something?
Mossy Lungs1 votesPlease please please! I miss my Midalee! Her jungle playstyle is not my taste at all, neither is jungling tbh. I miss her laning, she was so fun and interactive...
Your Demon2 votes[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ApzhAGrL,comment-id=0004000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-04-06T19:44:00.243+0000)
Certainly a possibility. Ironically her and Graves are the ones that I think I've either been a part of or overheard more conversation around. Similar story to Graves in not being sure when/if we'll be able to bring her back, but we've definitely been talking about it.
nautilus is a she :o
WindLord70702 votesHe's talking about nidalee
Aurelion Solari1 voteshugs That is all.
Tik1152 votesFrankly I think you would need to re-rework Graves in order to get him back into lane.
The ammo system isn't like Jhin's, 2 shots - even with the whole cone area of attack - can not wave clear effectively or cleanly meaning he would lose out on CS badly, its not like Trist's which is more manageable.
his Q power is so hard locked on the instant detonate that he won't work in wide open areas with lots of movement due to ease of avoidance/slower pushing power.
His kit (Minus the Q cause that was changed) still reflects his old in your face brawler carry but the ammo system stops him being able to do that, but he can't really be a hit and run carry because of his low range and lack of mobility (Given the E promotes aggression)
Not to say you CAN'T make Graves work in his current kit but the changes plus the general shift due to buffs/nerfs to other champs risk him becoming a balance nightmare just to get him into lane again
rtbf2216514121 votes[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ApzhAGrL,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-06T19:28:05.027+0000)
fiddlesticks is still the most performant in midlane relative to other roles even after removing his bonus damage to minions.
I don't know what game you been producing...
http://na.op.gg/champion/fiddlesticks/statistics/support
But that change did absolutely nothing to help what you were trying to accomplish.
For mid and barely (if any) for jungle.
Don't get me wrong. I love him in the support role.
But if that is not the direction you were going for, you guys missed the mark hard.
I am Razgriz1 votesbut on release of the rework he was playeable in literally every role.
Ridiculously high stats do that. He wasn't in every role because he was mechanically vibrant like Kayle might be considered.
Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ApzhAGrL,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-06T19:28:05.027+0000)
Like I said, philosophies on this have changed. The intitial kha'zix changes you referenced are from season 4, the hecarim changes are from season 5, and fiddlesticks is still the most performant in midlane relative to other roles even after removing his bonus damage to minions. On Kha'zix that's a case where we may be able to put more power back into his W as we re-evaluate champs in multiple roles/playstyles.
didnt u just changed 
a few patches ago to make viable in jng ?
sKz Aaron D2 votes"Don't introduce more of mechanics unless you absolutely have to" Almost every new champion and rework since Azir has had 8 or more abilities. Seems more like it's a philosophy that's meant to be stepped on :/
ModWulf Helhammer1 votesHe means in the sense of adding something to champions that are already out. Making a new champion/rework with more mechanics isn't the same thing
Sire Hippington1 votesthat seems like a very recent change of philosophy, so far you guys seemd perfectly fine with kicking old mains in the pants on any of the reworks, or 'forceing' champs into or out off certain positions...
Don't get me wrong i really like that you finally chaniged you're mind on that kind of things.
ExternalLink1 votes[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ApzhAGrL,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2018-04-06T19:12:36.896+0000)
Philosophies around this kind of thing can/have changed. Our stance for awhile internally has been "don't introduce more of mechanics unless you absolutely have to, and seek to remove them if you think you have the opportunity to". This mechanic being added onto Irelia as an example was born out of concern that we'd release her and then she'd find her more successful home in the jungle, which would have felt like a kick in the pants for the majority of our old Irelia mains who enjoy her top. We're hoping that once we've stabilized her in top as her primary role that we'll be able to trim back or remove that mechanic (but we'll have to see).
Isn't that kind of like what happened with Nidalee? Could we expect any changes on that front anytime soon?
Saianna3 votesadding additional damage to monsters or minions is something that we generally try to avoid
But isn't that like.. alot more healthy than overbuffing a champ so he becomes a goddamn mess and can go full apeshit crazy 1v1 anyone (like certain kick-happy angry blind monk)?
and some sort of signalling that's just "he's better in the jungle but no where else...sorry laners" is kinda shitty.
You could always make his abilit work better not only on monsters but also minions. And Done, suddenly Naut can both jungle and lane.
Seriously, some fixes are so damn simple i'm struggling to understand how are you making a problem out of it.
EDIT: Btw, what the F happend to the boards and replying?
Holgranth5 votesI strongly disagree with this stance when it comes to Tanks and Jungle. As much as many Rioters (as far as I can tell) would like to pretend that Clear Times are not the single most important factor for Jungle Champions, Clear Times are the single most important factor in Solo Q and Competitive. If you cannot clear camps quickly, get XP, get gold, it doesn't matter what else your kit brings to the table, you are not a good jungle champion.
Meanwhile Tanks need to have JUST enough damage to be able to lane while not being so overbearing that they are bruisers with insane utility to boot.
But Tank Junglers NEED to be able to clear almost as quickly as Assassins or Fighters.
But they cannot deal anywhere near as much damage to champions as those two classes without being insanely OP.
I have been playing since early Season 1. I have been playing with my friend group since the dawn of junglers. Riot has NEVER managed to make the Jungle a super diverse, fair and balanced role. It has yo-yo'd between the most powerful role in the game and arguably weaker than support. It has always been tilted towards 2-8 Meta champions or one Meta Archetype. Right now its the level 3 gank Archetype.
Don't get me wrong, I love the game, I love the role, I met my (soon to be) wife Jungling as Nautilus, I'll continue to hold out hope that the 7 year erosion of Jungle Nautilus as a viable pick will finally end.
But you guys REALLY need to take a long hard look at the jungle role and decide once and for all what it is supposed to be and what champions are supposed to be in it. Then you need to take a good hard look at the PVE mechanics vs PVP mechanics of this game and figure out what the hell the roadmap for jungle is over the next 2-3 years.
Backup4now3 votesit's kind of a sloppy way of doing so, and sets us up for problems down the road.
Why? What is the issue with this approach? That actually just sounds like the best possible way of doing it. Different roles have different requirements, so if you want to put champions in the jungle or in lanes you don't have to try doing it all in a single change that could impact both roles, since this is the most direct and non-collateral method. Aren't you guys the ones that preach about "balancing levers" all the time?
WindLord70705 votesWhy? What is the issue with this approach? That actually just sounds like the best possible way of doing it. Different roles have different requirements, so if you want to put champions in the jungle or in lanes you don't have to try doing it all in a single change that could impact both roles, since this is the most direct and non-collateral method. Aren't you guys the ones that preach about "balancing levers" all the time?
You would think adding a tuning knob specifically for just jungling would be the single greatest thing they could do. A champ becomes too strong in the jungle but nerfing them would hurt their lane? Nerf that monster damage. Seems so simple. And it could open up alot more champions for jungle and actually make it a diverse role for once.
Malicious Metal3 votesHow about making his W or E slow monster's AS, it would allow him to keep Titan's wrath up for a longer duration in the Jungle, thus helping his clear without excessive bonus damage to monsters.
SpecterVonBaren2 votesHave you guys considered returning the damage taken from his W in 5.5?
The Yetii Rider1 votesHonestly, this is a huge problem with the way the game is structured.
Forcing us to engage in this monotonous PVE fighting to get XP and gold serves little value, and ends up restricting all that you can do. You have to give champions abilities to help them fight minions and monsters, even at the expense of making them more interesting against champions.
cannot be bad at wave clear. She simply does not function in her role without it. So when you tried to introduce bad wave clear as a possible weakness for her, it ruined her as a mid laner because wave clear is not actually a lever you have available to you. If a champion does not have wave clear in mid, they cease to fulfill a crucial role of mid lane (unless they have the hyper roaming ability of an assassin to compensate).
had to lose his passive in order to get a more supportive kit. He is down an entire ability in team fights and ganks because he HAS to be able to clear the jungle in order to be a jungler.
Why is PVE so important? Stattik Shiv, the various versions of Tiamat and Sunfire Cape, Bami's Cinder...it just honestly seems at this point like you have to put in so many different levers to try and help champions actually kill minions because their kits don't let them do it fast enough. This isn't a weakness/specialization, because there has to be a baseline, Zoe proved that. This isn't a way of optimizing your purchases or opting into specific items, top lane tanks simply stopped existing after Sunfire was nerfed and ADCs always prioritized Stattik Shiv.
Now, I know you will be opposed to the idea of removing PVE from the game. So I ask you to defend it, instead. What are the benefits of keeping CSing and jungle clearing in the game? When you have so many costs associated with the upkeep of minions and monsters, when you have to rework the jungle every two seasons, when you have to tune items for supports that can only function for supports just so they can have enough gold to function, then you are screwed because you can't figure out how to introduce XP to the support role without it benefitting everyone else more but supports don't get enough XP because XP is tied to CSing...
The entire PVE of this game is archaic and it seems to waste a lot of the balance team's time and energy maintaining. So, what is the benefit of it?
TheSingularity1 votesJust completely revert the changes to before you moved power from his W into his E. This was a mistake and when everything went downhill. We saw him dominate every but jungle after this change. So we going back pre 5.5 in 2015, those are the stats we looking for He could jungle just fine back then. It's a simple change that should solve the problem, if it doesn't then fine tune until everythin allg
BadgerDrool1 votesCan the damage/DoT portion of W last a bit past shield ending maybe? Say "While shield is active and for 2 seconds after it ends". That way we can tune the DoT separate from survivalbility early game?
I am Razgriz1 votesOkay, then can you consider letting Talon's passive apply to everything as well? Since you're making an exclusion for his passive rather than an inclusion and it specifically executes (as in, shot and killed) a style a lot of people want to play for reasons we're not communicated with about.
Aurelion Solari1 votesI think in general im on the side of not adding damage to monsters as a modifier to hamfist something into jungle. Honestly I think there just needs to be a first buy jungle item that basically assures most champions that would realistically jungle can jungle but at the cost of health something like after X spell hits on a monster next attack does W% of your current health up to Y or something akin to if you wet noodle long enough we help you out with some damage if you can stay healthy. Basically engineering something that would be good with Evelynn but then making it about being tanky and healthier. But I mean this is coming from someone who pondered temporary out of combat max mana on Lissandra passive. So with a grain of salt
Besserweissbier1 votes[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ApzhAGrL,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-04-06T18:37:13.275+0000)
Hey man, adding additional damage to monsters or minions is something that we generally try to avoid if we can. That's not to say that we don't use it ever, but it's usually when we don't have another option. I totally agree that adding percent bonus damage to monsters is an easy way to accomplish a goal of "let Nautilus jungle", but there's also something to be said about us not being overly prescriptive of who can/can't jungle through the use of this mechanic.
Personally I've gone back and forth on this quite a bit, at times I feel really strongly we should just do a pass on champs to put them in the jungle by adding bonus damage to monsters, but then other times I do agree with the argument that it's kind of a sloppy way of doing so, and sets us up for problems down the road. Not to mention the fact that Nautilus is currently struggling across the board, not just in the jungle, and some sort of signalling that's just "he's better in the jungle but no where else...sorry laners" is kinda shitty. That being said, we're currently looking at adding another line to this changelist that "should" be skew more heavily towards the jungle - likely early base shield on W or early bonus attack speed to help out with his early clear. Either of those changes will also obviously help out top and support, but should disproportionately aid his jungle clearing.
To be fair, though. Last time you gave Nautilus a pass you (as in Riot) explicitly said you didnt want Nautilus in the top lane, and wanted to push him into the jungle. None of the chances made since that time have done so. Nautilus needs to be able to clear his jungle. Adding early attack speed isnt gonna do that. Adding a base shield to W will help, slightly, but it wont be enough.
Right now, you run out of mana, even with blue buff, from spamming E. Even then he has a slow clear.
If you dont want to add bonus dmg to monsters to his E, at least consider something like reducing CD on Riptide from hitting monsters, aswell as Mana cost reduction.
Nsato1 votes[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ApzhAGrL,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-04-06T18:37:13.275+0000)
Hey man, adding additional damage to monsters or minions is something that we generally try to avoid if we can. That's not to say that we don't use it ever, but it's usually when we don't have another option. I totally agree that adding percent bonus damage to monsters is an easy way to accomplish a goal of "let Nautilus jungle", but there's also something to be said about us not being overly prescriptive of who can/can't jungle through the use of this mechanic.
Personally I've gone back and forth on this quite a bit, at times I feel really strongly we should just do a pass on champs to put them in the jungle by adding bonus damage to monsters, but then other times I do agree with the argument that it's kind of a sloppy way of doing so, and sets us up for problems down the road. Not to mention the fact that Nautilus is currently struggling across the board, not just in the jungle, and some sort of signalling that's just "he's better in the jungle but no where else...sorry laners" is kinda shitty. That being said, we're currently looking at adding another line to this changelist that "should" be skew more heavily towards the jungle - likely early base shield on W or early bonus attack speed to help out with his early clear. Either of those changes will also obviously help out top and support, but should disproportionately aid his jungle clearing.
Any chance we could see a W rework? The aoe dot is one of those "invisible power" things. Iirc there's someone out there that you can "pop" the damage from a mark early by reapplying their mark, just blanking on who it is. Or maybe adding some interaction between the mark and his other spells so that you're incentivized to stay in combat after you lay your burst down.
Thanks.
Karn Bishop1 votesSo does that mean the reverse philosophy is now frowned upon now as well? i.e adding damage caps to the amount of dps you can do to jungle camps specifically to prevent said champion from jungling.
PapaGreg211 votesI appreciate that you took time out of your free time to respond as you don't have to take part in forums but luckily for the community you do. The only reason I even made this post is that Riot has stated on the boards that they aren't afraid to add monster damage if they think a champ needs it which is opposite of what you are saying. He clearly needs it as his jungle clear is awful. The only reason his w was nerfed in the first place years ago was because the jungle had more aoe camps and he was being left behind so they made his kit be able to spam e for the clears. I didn't make this up. This was the explanation on his path notes. Now that riptide is mana gated, his W still is weak and he can't even use riptide enough to do what it's main job was. He now has the worst of both worlds.
The Yetii Rider1 votesIt was the weekend before so I understand that you probably didn't see my last reply to this, but I want to draw your attention to it. Please read over this other comment of mine and tell me exactly why you think minions and monsters need to remain in the game when they tax so much of your balance team's attention.
2Charmnot2Charm12 votesHow has the community figured out that Nautilus needs monster damage on riptide but Riot has not?
The answer is obvious, we actually play the game. The balance team DOESN'T.
Same reason anyone that ever played lux always asked for her basic spells to be buffed, yet for whatever dumb reason riot has been tossing buff after buff at lux's ultimate for god knows how long.
Mokuto Bunshi2 votesMaybe its also the level they play the game at and the fact they play in house-testing games.
Shuriman Curator9 votesYeah I saw that too and literally said "why" it doesn't do anything for him lmfao
Chaos Milk Tea4 votesHonestly, Nautilus isn't a hook support. He's not good at it, and shouldn't be played as one. You know what he IS good at? DISENGAGE. You think Braum peels people? Try a snare on auto attack. It's literally as simple as JUST ATTACKING THEM. Leona wants in? Auto her. Master Yi going 1000 miles an hour? Auto him. Ekko wants t,AUTO HIM! Chased by more than one guy? E. Maybe R if you're feeling spicy. Need an escape because you peeled too well? Q the wall.
meowwow71 votesthe thing i like about naut is using his hook for not engaging but making the enemy champ waste their cc since i throw it out before i get cc'ed and i pull myself to safety even after the cc lands on me
Chaos Milk Tea2 votesthe thing i like about naut is using his hook for not engaging but making the enemy champ waste their cc since i throw it out before i get cc'ed and i pull myself to safety even after the cc lands on me
Yeah, my main use for it has been either disrupting enemy actions or counter engaging after the enemy has realized you can't get past Naut.
SpecterVonBaren2 votesReturn the damage on his W.
