Ornn.... What's really sad.

Illabethe·Apr 12, 2019·1 votes·1,349 views

Ornn's been nerfed so hard...... with , at level 18, he only has 16.1 HP regen a second o.O

Literally every other tank/juggernaut I know has almost double, if not triple that......

22 Comments

ModThe DjinnApr 12, 20195 votes

I'm not sure were you're getting this "double/triple" stat. There is exactly one champion with more than double that health regeneration at level 18: Gnar, with 34.34 HP/5.

In fact, here's the level 18 HP/5 of the top 6 champions:

Gnar: 34.3
Vi: 27
Darius: 26.2
Braum: 25
Sylas: 24.5
Ornn: 24.3

That is accurate as of his last update to health regen in 9.1. Ornn has the sixth highest base health regeneration.

IllabetheApr 12, 20191 votes

Let me take you to school:

1.) The point is that they have destroyed HP regeneration as a stat as a whole. We used to see 40-50 HP/5, and it never really affected the needle when concerning champion viability. It was a primary stat for good peelers who did all the right things to dodge skill shots, and dash away. Now that it's been diminished across the board, these champs no longer are rewarded for doing everything right and instead generally still end up dead. This is one of the primary reasons Tanks aren't being seen as popular anymore.

2.) All the champs you mentioned have much higher REAL HP Regen/5, because they build items like item 3748 item 3800 in addition. Ornn is compelled to build non HP regen items, because his passive mandates it to be effective.

ThingamajigApr 12, 20194 votes

warmogs

Moody PApr 12, 20194 votes

Because he has indirect lane sustain through his items passive (and also gets free bonus resistances on all purchases)

Hes fine where he is. Well, no, he's toxic and should be reworked, but he's "fine" as in not grossly over or ubdertuned

IllabetheApr 12, 20191 votes

Just had a team feed a Cho Gath and they had a Poppy Support. That wasn't fun. 3 minute long chases where I couldn't peel them even if I Q'd both, E'd away, etc

Vlada CutApr 12, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AmrJoEbc,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-04-12T14:42:27.261+0000)

Because he has indirect lane sustain through his items passive (and also gets free bonus resistances on all purchases)

Hes fine where he is. Well, no, he's toxic and should be reworked, but he's "fine" as in not grossly over or ubdertuned

Did you just say a tank is toxic? Lmao you must be garbage with Voli and other Bruisers then.

HammermancerApr 12, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vlada Cut,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AmrJoEbc,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2019-04-12T14:49:45.911+0000)

Did you just say a tank is toxic? Lmao you must be garbage with Voli and other Bruisers then.

in this meta i'm inclined to agree with you, BUT in other metas tanks have proven to be so dominant based on stat checking alone that i worry about the class as a whole needing the execution of their role revised

i feel like tanks either are god tier or crap and i don't remember a time where tanks didn't feel like you were either cutting through them like butter or completely defenseless against them wet noodling you to death over the course of 40 seconds worth of cc laden hell

i advocate for tanks to get reworked with their spirit being kept but their scaling and methodology being changed so that they can both be strong and not feel like aids without dedicating 3 items to counter them

Vlada CutApr 12, 20191 votes

{quoted}

in this meta i'm inclined to agree with you, BUT in other metas tanks have proven to be so dominant based on stat checking alone that i worry about the class as a whole needing the execution of their role revised

i feel like tanks either are god tier or crap and i don't remember a time where tanks didn't feel like you were either cutting through them like butter or completely defenseless against them wet noodling you to death over the course of 40 seconds worth of cc laden hell

i advocate for tanks to get reworked with their spirit being kept but their scaling and methodology being changed so that they can both be strong and not feel like aids without dedicating 3 items to counter them

That's because in ither neta Bruisers were weaker against Tanks which woukd come online from a first item or second item spike, and would've stayed that way if there wasn't dor such an easy peasy way to render thst armor and magic ressistnuseless, making those ressistances irellevant throughout EVERY phase of the game, INCLUDING mid game where Tanks go online. I'm looking at you Conqueror, you cheecky little f00cker.

HammermancerApr 12, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vlada Cut,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AmrJoEbc,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2019-04-12T15:11:33.854+0000)

That's because in ither neta Bruisers were weaker against Tanks which woukd come online from a first item or second item spike, and would've stayed that way if there wasn't dor such an easy peasy way to render thst armor and magic ressistnuseless, making those ressistances irellevant throughout EVERY phase of the game, INCLUDING mid game where Tanks go online.ev I'm looking at you Conqueror, you cheecky little f00cker.

You think i'm pro bruiser supremacy when really all im saying is that it shouldn't constantly be either Bruisers are raping Tanks or Tanks raping Bruisers and that's what has happened historically. I'm a bruiser player, but hey i also play some Taric, some Poppy, and some Sion, because frankly i enjoy the game in it's whole not just the classes.

last time tanks were viable almost no fighters or bruisers were viable at all, then before that when bruisers were viable there were no viable tanks

so instead of saying we need to buff tanks to destroy bruisers, we should look for parody between the two classes.

as a bruiser player i think that bruisers are delivering on their class fantasy right now, but at the expense of other classes, and those classes need buffs to experience their class fantasies better.

The truth is, I don't like how we're always playing OP tag in meta, in which the OP class gets gutted then the class it was dunking just runs the game and ruins it for everyone til that class gets gutted and the things it was countering come into play. Class and counter class balance philosophy has, in the past decade, proven itself to be a failure in my eyes. There needs to be a revision on how balance works entirely and less scapegoating on whatever class is overpowered for each part of the season.

I will bet you a 30$ skin that we will see a hard tank meta later this season in which the champs everyone thinks are OP right now will be comepletely useless with little to no change in the vast majority of cases. Thise is because class design issues are just a subset of what i'm certain is the real issue which seems to be that the current approach to class balancing is rock-paper-scissors. Riot wants bruisers to counter tanks to counter skirmishers to counter bruisers.. which means in 2 out of 3 patches a third of us top laners are having a shitty shitty time on our favorite champions.

Dude i feel bad for maokai mains right now, and worse for darius mains but the proposed fixes are just "Remove conqueror" with zero acknowledgement that there will be other issues that come into play for a season or more when that happens.

i mean, maybe next season we can have no runes at all and riot can just balance the champs eh? (that's a joke)

but in seriousness let's start a trend, let's be friends and talk about the greater issue. I don't want my class to be OP and i don't want it to be useless, I want the fighter fantasy to coexist with the tank fantasy instead of it literally being one man on top for seasons at a time

Vlada CutApr 12, 20191 votes

{quoted}

You think i'm pro bruiser supremacy when really all im saying is that it shouldn't constantly be either Bruisers are raping Tanks or Tanks raping Bruisers and that's what has happened historically. I'm a bruiser player, but hey i also play some Taric, some Poppy, and some Sion, because frankly i enjoy the game in it's whole not just the classes.

last time tanks were viable almost no fighters or bruisers were viable at all, then before that when bruisers were viable there were no viable tanks

so instead of saying we need to buff tanks to destroy bruisers, we should look for parody between the two classes.

as a bruiser player i think that bruisers are delivering on their class fantasy right now, but at the expense of other classes, and those classes need buffs to experience their class fantasies better.

The truth is, I don't like how we're always playing OP tag in meta, in which the OP class gets gutted then the class it was dunking just runs the game and ruins it for everyone til that class gets gutted and the things it was countering come into play. Class and counter class balance philosophy has, in the past decade, proven itself to be a failure in my eyes. There needs to be a revision on how balance works entirely and less scapegoating on whatever class is overpowered for each part of the season.

I will bet you a 30$ skin that we will see a hard tank meta later this season in which the champs everyone thinks are OP right now will be comepletely useless with little to no change in the vast majority of cases. Thise is because class design issues are just a subset of what i'm certain is the real issue which seems to be that the current approach to class balancing is rock-paper-scissors. Riot wants bruisers to counter tanks to counter skirmishers to counter bruisers.. which means in 2 out of 3 patches a third of us top laners are having a shitty shitty time on our favorite champions.

Dude i feel bad for maokai mains right now, and worse for darius mains but the proposed fixes are just "Remove conqueror" with zero acknowledgement that there will be other issues that come into play for a season or more when that happens.

i mean, maybe next season we can have no runes at all and riot can just balance the champs eh? (that's a joke)

but in seriousness let's start a trend, let's be friends and talk about the greater issue. I don't want my class to be OP and i don't want it to be useless, I want the fighter fantasy to coexist with the tank fantasy instead of it literally being one man on top for seasons at a time

Who da dunk said I wanted pimpership between Tanks and Bruisers should always change? I just want a meta where their both pros and flaws can be acceptable and live in a meta where they are both viable and diverse. But hey, if you are riggt abiut tank meta returning then I guess that's why Vayne's not gonna get nerfed any time soon. [zombie-brand-clap]

HammermancerApr 12, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vlada Cut,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AmrJoEbc,comment-id=000100010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-12T16:11:51.173+0000)

Who da dunk said I wanted pimpership between Tanks and Bruisers should always change? I just want a meta where their both pros and flaws can be acceptable and live in a meta where they are both viable and diverse. But hey, if you are riggt abiut tank meta returning then I guess that's why Vayne's not gonna get nerfed any time soon. [zombie-brand-clap]

On the bright side... Brand will be in every game against zyra bot lane again :D

Moody PApr 12, 20191 votes

arguing with low elo players about tanks is a waste of time

Iota ThetaApr 13, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AmrJoEbc,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-04-12T14:42:27.261+0000)

Because he has indirect lane sustain through his items passive (and also gets free bonus resistances on all purchases)

Hes fine where he is. Well, no, he's toxic and should be reworked, but he's "fine" as in not grossly over or ubdertuned

Probably not his entire kit, but at least his W at this point..the source of most of his troubles.

Moody PApr 13, 20191 votes

passive will never be fair or healthy and it should be scrapped

R being safe basically fool proof initiation is also more problem than W right now, but his damage is quite stupid. things like ornn sej ult being safe and reliable are bad design for how they can close a game used correctly

Iota ThetaApr 13, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AmrJoEbc,comment-id=000100020000,timestamp=2019-04-13T03:08:47.257+0000)

passive will never be fair or healthy and it should be scrapped

That might be subject to debate. It was fairly ok early on, but it helped that he was a lot less reliable and his base stats weren’t where they are now.

R being safe basically fool proof initiation is also more problem than W right now, but his damage is quite stupid. things like ornn sej ult being safe and reliable are bad design for how they can close a game used correctly

I agree with his damage being over the top. I can see your point with his ult. Was it better back when it had an actual cast time on the headbutt, makig it harder to land and potentially easier to mess him up?

Moody PApr 13, 20191 votes

what bothers me about his passive is that riot made a whole point about removing stat based auras and bonuses from supports and nonsupports because of invisible power

Then they release ornn who gains more stats from items (passively), and then also gives permanent, global stats to allies, and all he has to do is not lose the game before he unlocks it. Bit hypocritical to me and Ornn passive goes about the idea of this in a much ubhealthier way than a simple aura IMO

Iota ThetaApr 13, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AmrJoEbc,comment-id=00010002000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-13T11:09:43.284+0000)

what bothers me about his passive is that riot made a whole point about removing stat based auras and bonuses from supports and nonsupports because of invisible power

Then they release ornn who gains more stats from items (passively), and then also gives permanent, global stats to allies, and all he has to do is not lose the game before he unlocks it. Bit hypocritical to me and Ornn passive goes about the idea of this in a much ubhealthier way than a simple aura IMO

That..is a really good point. Hadn’t thought of it too much that way. I did remember them saying they wanted less passive power or something like that, and found it odd they reversed trend on Ornn. Hm.

boricCentaur1Apr 12, 20192 votes

Yes but he can buy fucking items from lane that's why if he had good regen he could just stay in lane a lot longer making him oppressive since he will always be ahead in items.

IllabetheApr 12, 20191 votes

Here's the problem with that: In Lane, he has mana issues. He has to recall for that alone.

boricCentaur1Apr 12, 20192 votes

It's not like ornn can just build into item 3025 or item 3001 yeah he can't build two items that work really well on him nope he can't do it at all.

IllabetheApr 13, 20191 votes

Aka completed items that don't do anything to actually GAIN mana, aren't lane clear items (most Ornns start Sunfire), and don't solve the most important first 7-8 minutes of the game where this is the most important.